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Question about shooting. Lets say I have a unit with 2 demo charges (IA: 5 Krieg can do this). During my firing I toss my first one... and it comes back on top of me, obliterating my unit. Now, AFAIK all shooting from a unit happens at the same time, even though I toss my templates seperately.

So, do I get to toss my other template & shoot with the rest of my unit even though they're counted as casualties and removed at the end of their firing? Or are they removed immediately and I take a dim view of demo charges?

You resolve template weapons sequentially.

That means you're other demo charge guy dies and doesn't flip his template-goodness out beforehand.

Stelek wrote:You resolve template weapons sequentially.

That means you're other demo charge guy dies and doesn't flip his template-goodness out beforehand.

i disagree, you roll to hit as a unit and then roll to wound as a unit, well at least according to the main rulebook. i cant account for any updates or whatnot.
id say you get to fire the whole unit. at least this is how i read it.

Well, how you 'read' it isn't what the rulebook says.

Please read the bit about resolving templates sequentially.

You know, the rules I mentioned.

i guess it wouldnt be a post from stelek without having some sarcasm and only an ambiguous answer or no true help at all eh stelek?

and just FYI... you never mentioned the rules at all, you just threw your answer out there as if handed down from on high.
maybe if you referenced a page or something or hell, even a portion of the book it would have been an actual helpful post.

FYI for Moopy, the "bit" Stelek is referring to is under the special weapon characterisitics section of "multiple blasts" pg.30

make sure you shoot everything else before throwing that demo charge.

So this helps him how?

Yes, all the lasguns can shoot.

He seemed to want to know about the other demo charge.

Maybe the rules I quoted from memory are easy to find in the BBB and I figured the OP could find them if I mentioned them.

Or be a jackass, like you're being.

Stelek wrote:You resolve template weapons sequentially.

You also resolve multiple blasts sequentially, which is a little more relevant to the question. Demo Charges aren't Template weapons.


I don't see anything in the multiple blasts rule that says that you don't place further blasts if your own unit is wiped out, though. All shooting from the unit is simultaneous... you simply place the blasts sequentially to make working out casualties easier.

So while I probably wouldn't do it myself as it's a bit grey, there would certainly be an argument for still getting the second blast.

lol... im being a jackass by giving him an exact page, thats awesome.

@insaniak - you wouldnt get the second blast... stelek has said so!

The effects of multiple blast weapons are worked out seperately, but there is nothing in the rules that states that you work out which blast weapons hit sequentially.

Take, for example, a unit of space marine devastators with four plasma cannons. You are perfectly within the rules to roll to hit for all four of them simultaneously, but then you work out the wounding effects for each one sequentially. One plasma cannon does not fire before any of the others.

There is no reason to think that demo charges would work in a different manner.

In fact, with the plasma cannons, wouldn't you have to fire all at the same time (i.e with "get hot" danger), even if resolving them sequentially means that there are no targets left by the third or fourth cannon shot?

Saldiven has it right.

Antonin: yes.

Demo charges use the blast template.

There are no real 'template' weapons in 40k by the wording of the rules, after all.

Some things, you just have to assume.

It's the way of 40k.

I'm going to second Insaniak. All weapons fire simultaneously. Think of it like firing a Plasma weapon multiple times. One shot may kill the operator, but if the other shot hit, then it still counts even though the unit may be dead (unless you're a Marine, in which case he'll be fine with that armor save, in my experience). As Insaniak said, working them out sequentially is only for convenience.

Stelek wrote:Demo charges use the blast template.

Urm... I cannot speak to IA:5, but my IG codex says they use the "large Ordinance template" i.e. the 5" template as opposed to the 3" template. Do Krieg soldiers get different rules?

Stelek wrote:There are no real 'template' weapons in 40k by the wording of the rules, after all.

I'm curious how the entry "Template Weapons" wording equates to there being no real 'template' weapons... care to enlighten me?

Template = flamer.

Blast = not a template.

It's how the rules are worded that causes consternation.

==============

Blast, Ordnance = circles of death. I do interchange both terms, believing most people know plasma cannons use small ones and leman russ rounds (aka demo charges) use big ones. You DO seem to know.

==============

Plasma Cannons do not scatter.

The demo charges do.

Either way, you DO resolve them sequentially--the difference is the SCATTER.

You aren't firing a barrage battery, right? So there are NO (that means NONE ZERO ZILCH) rules to allow you to toss two template weapons from the same unit at the same time.

You throw one, and resolve it. If you don't throw it on yourself, you can throw the next.

It's simple really. You can overcomplicate it and try to create an argument from nothing, but it really won't get you anywhere. The rules say what I say. The rules do not say what you say.

Have a nice day now.

I just read through the firing phase for normal and blast weapons. It does not state that if you destroy your own troops they can not continue to fire. In the shooting section it states that units fire as a whole, resolving different weapons at the same time if multiple colored dice are available, but it does not state that they have to be rolled at the same time.

So, yes, the demo charges count as having been thrown at the same moment and are occurring at the same time. If one of these demo charges happens to kill the team utilizing the charge, then that's too bad, but the other demo charge has already been lobbed, and is therefore still in play.

You'll have to show me the rules (the ones I clearly said do not exist) for tossing multiple scatter weapons from a non-barrage unit.

Probably why FW ideas are rubbish, no playtesting and even less reading of the 40K rules.

You're right, there are no rules for firing multiple scatter weapons from a non-barage unit. So I guess we should just assume they can't be used.... or we just use them as normal. There's a novel idea Stelek. To quote you "read the rule book." Unless you can find a part that says non-barage or multiple scatter weapons are not used as normal like every other weapon in the game, then you must assume that they have no special rules (since they have no special rules) and use them as normal. Rule book says: they are used simultaneously, just like all other weapons.

Sorry, 40k is not a permissive game bud.

The mechanic does not exist to do what the OP discussed.

Call FW for technical support on this one.

Stelek, read the rule book.

The one you're reading, or the real one?

Stelek, just read the rule book. Read about firing weapons and blast weapons. It's all there. Just read the rule book, it's okay. Just read it.

*gets confused and starts reading the Warmachine Rule Book*

Haaay... wait a sec.. you're both wrong... where are your... ability...cards?

Mr. Bombadidaloo -*gets confused and starts reading the Warmachine Rule Book*

Haaay... wait a sec.. you're both wrong... where are your... ability...cards?

lol-funny Guy! Exalt!


Forget going around in circles, align your figures up with the BASES THEY WERE SUPLLIED WITH*joke.

And just fire/toss/lob all of the things at once. Resolve wounds after all of your Scatters/misses.

Build a bridge.

*Sigh*


There just isn't any reason for anyone to to continually post: "read the rules".

No one is forcing you to come into this forum and answer people's questions. If you choose to, sure you can answer with a brief statement of how you believe the situation should be handled, but if someone else challenges your assertions then you either need to back up your assertions with a valid argument or else simply stop posting in the thread.

Having a bunch of people beating their chests claiming that they're right doesn't accomplish anything at all.


I suggest reading this article for insight on actually discussing an argument with logical merit:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/How_to_Have_an_Intelligent_Rules_Debate




But back to this topic: the Ordnance rules in the rulebook (what there is of them) state that Ordnance weapons do not follow the rules for blast weapons. Plus, the Ordnance rules don't have any additional restrictions for resolving more than one Ordnance weapon firing from a single unit (of course, they also don't say how Ordnance weapons actually hit models either, but that's a whole other bowl of wax).

That means players would follow the normal steps for shooting, meaning you'd resolve the scatter for both weapons, then determine how many models are hit (along with any weapons using a 'to hit' roll) and then move onto rolling to wound.


With that said, the Ordnance rules are so poorly written that I don't think it is beyond reason to apply the 'multiple blasts' rule to units that are firing multiple ordnance blasts as well, but it is definitely something you'd want to discuss with your opponent with before the game (although using that rule is only going to help them, so I don't know why they'd be against it).


Regardless of which way you decide to ultimately play it, I don't see any basis in the rules for the effects of the first blast to somehow prohibit the resolution of the second blast.

You know if you follow the RAW that means demo charges cannot be carried and thus cannot be used by infantry.

Most people I know use the blast rules for the demo charges, even though the rules specifically say not to--because at least the blast rules make sense and only make you break the rules once.

Anyway, it's a FW item. Gee, it doesn't follow the rules? Amazing. Can't see why most tournaments ban FW straight away...

Stelek wrote:Anyway, it's a FW item. Gee, it doesn't follow the rules? Amazing. Can't see why most tournaments ban FW straight away...

You're not talking about Demo Charges, right? Because they're found in the basic IG codex.

The question from the OP, yak...shame on you.

You only get 1 demo charge per SW squad in the IG Codex. Yes, this I know. Doesn't really cause issues.

Moopy wrote:IA: 5 Krieg

More than 1 demo charge breaks 40K nicely.

I can't say I "know" anything, but I "feel" that 40K is a non-permissive rules set and since this isn't in the rules how does one allow it?

Most people use the blast rules (and just call it a large blast) since the #1 in-game use of DC is (drum roll):

Deep strike, toss. Which if it's ordnance 1 means it's illegal, right?

Poorly written rules indeed.

What, I'm the only person in how many GT's has had a DC tossed at them from a DS'ing SW squad? Or one moving up and tossing it at you?

Come on, I see it all the time.

Anyway the FW unit lets you use multiple DC. Are they a barrage then? Ordnance? If the latter, which part allows you to move-and-fire them? If you allow move-and-fire, doesn't that really make them blast weapons that scatter? If you're like everyone else, doesn't this mean you should follow the blast rules and not just ignore them because they don't suit your fancy?

Going to bed now. Food for thought, I hope.

Stelek wrote:

You only get 1 demo charge per SW squad in the IG Codex. Yes, this I know. Doesn't really cause issues.

Yep, but a Last Chancers unit can have a whole mess of Demo charges in the same unit.

Stelek wrote:

More than 1 demo charge breaks 40K nicely.

I can't say I "know" anything, but I "feel" that 40K is a non-permissive rules set and since this isn't in the rules how does one allow it?

Most people use the blast rules (and just call it a large blast) since the #1 in-game use of DC is (drum roll):

Deep strike, toss. Which if it's ordnance 1 means it's illegal, right?

Poorly written rules indeed.

Anyway the FW unit lets you use multiple DC. Are they a barrage then? Ordnance? If the latter, which part allows you to move-and-fire them? If you allow move-and-fire, doesn't that really make them blast weapons that scatter? If you're like everyone else, doesn't this mean you should follow the blast rules and not just ignore them because they don't suit your fancy?

The Demo charge rules themselves say they are move and fire weapons, so I'm not sure why you think it is illegal to move and fire with them.