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I played in a mini RTT yesterday. Here is what happened.

My Mega mobz and warboss with klaw charged eldar

3 in kill zone; one is a Squad leader with a +4 inv

12 wounds are inflicted onto eldar.

Eldar player claims the two guys with no inv save soak up 4 wounds each and the other guy needs to make 4 saves. He says one is supposed to divy up the wounds evenly.

I say the first two each soak up ONE wound since they do not have an inv save and the squad leader needs to make 10 +4 inv saves.

Who was right?

Do all the Eldar have the same armor save (ignoring the Invulnerable save)?


If they have a *differing* standard armor save then the wounds are allocated before making any saves and the model with the invulnerable save would only have to take 4 invulnerable saves.

If they have the *same* standard armor save then you are right, the first two models would be removed and the character would have to make invulnerable saves for the rest of the wounds (all ten of them).

Do the Eldar in question have 4 wounds each mate? What was thier T? 3 or 4? What wasthe S of the Klaws?


"Eldar player claims the two guys with no inv save soak up 4 wounds each and the other guy needs to make 4 saves. He says one is supposed to divy up the wounds evenly. "

As far as I know, you take wounds off the squad evenly, in order.(ie the guys in the 'Kill zone'- 2" of models in B2B)

As soon as the first one dies, go to the second. Which may work out that his 4+ inv guy may have to take 10 Armour saves.

If he fails one(depending on T & S) he can be insta-killed as well.

Where old mate got the Malarky about 4 wounds on each model, I have no idea.

See what the others think Alex.

that is so strange. So then how would it work with multiple wound models? I just doesn't make sense that each takes 4 however the two don't get saves yet soak up 4 each. They all had the same save except the squad leader had a +4 inv.

Since they're power weapons and ignore armour saves, I'd say the "worse save", which happens to be in the majority, is the save of "doesn't get one". The rest are, in this case, "gets one" and it's a 4+. Thus the first wound, allocated, goes to "no save" models as they're in the majority. Now there's two, and when tied you go for the weaker save, meaning another gets allocated to the guy with no invulnerable save, and the remaining 10 go on the warlock.

That's how I see it, though I've been called before on the "majority save is NO save, because it's a power weapon" when one guy has an invulnerable save and the rest don't, but all their armour saves are the same. But that's how I read it. For a better example try looking at the multiple armour saves examples that show what happens when scouts/marines are hit with Ap4 weapons.

yakface wrote:
If they have a *differing* standard armor save then the wounds are allocated before making any saves and the model with the invulnerable save would only have to take 4 invulnerable saves.

If they have the *same* standard armor save then you are right, the first two models would be removed and the character would have to make invulnerable saves for the rest of the wounds (all ten of them).

oooooh.... I see what you did there. So if, for instance, the unit charged was a squad of dire avengers, and the exarch had a shimmershield, he'd only take 4 wounds to save (albeit at 5+), whereas the warlock in the guardian squad would need to save 10 times because his normal save is the same as the guardians. Well, that helps me, even if it doesn't help the OP.

Smart Alex, was the unit charged a squad of guardians w/ warlock? What else has a 4+ invulnerable save in the Eldar codex that isn't an independent character (who, btw cannot be allocated wounds unless you specifically allocate attacks to him)?

Cheers

Warlocks and guardians don't have the same save.

- and 5+ are indeed different armor saves...

I guess the real question I'd ask is, was the warlock forward of the rest of the squad?

You must remove casualties to stay in coherency.

It's a great rule. Often ignored by oh everyone.

smart_alex wrote:that is so strange. So then how would it work with multiple wound models? I just doesn't make sense that each takes 4 however the two don't get saves yet soak up 4 each. They all had the same save except the squad leader had a +4 inv.

It shouldn't be that hard to understand. When the mixed armor rule is in effect (when the unit has differing ARMOR saves) wounds are allocated before any saves are taken.


And I'd get used to it, because if the leaked PDF is any indication of 5th edition all wounds are going to be allocated before saves are taken in the new game.

As noted, armor saves are all that matters for wound allocations under the mixed armor rules. The mixed armor rules clearly state that you go by armor save, and AFTER allocation any applicable invulnerable saves come into play.

Since a warlock has no armor save at all, and guardians have a 5+, your opponent was correct. You would allocate the wounds evenly among the models in the kill zone, the two guardians would die, and the warlock would have to take 4 invulnerable saves.

I thought there's a rule on page 37 (not sure of the page number) that says that models that get no save are removed first, then you test for saves on the rest of the unit. So regardless of the mixed armor rules, you pull the models with not save (the ones without invul saves, since they are hit by a power weapon) then the guy with invul deals with the rest.

then I guess my question now becomes, who and how are they allocated. So if there were 3 ogryn with mixed armor, say the bone 'ead had carapace, and this happened I could assign 4 to each? DOes is have to be evenly allocated?

also, it seems like doing this changes things and one can even make a strategey out of it. Just give your squad leader different armor, then if an IG squad takes 10 wounds with 3 in kill zone, rather than making 10 total saves, roll, 4 for one model and 3 each for the others. THis greatly increases chances of the entire squad for survival.

It has to be evenly allocated per the mixed armor rules.

Squad of 4 guys, 3 of them 4+ armor, one 3+armor/4+ inv - follows mixed armor save rules. So they take 12 hits. First 3 go to the 4+ armor guys (the majority). Next one goes to the 3+ guy. This repeats until all are used up. So in the end each one gets to take 3 saves, and if none of them can save then you just take the 3 4+ saves on the inv guy. Lucky him.

If they all had the SAME armor save, then you follow the rules on pg 24 for taking hits and 26 for removing casualties. On pg24 the example shouws that if the armor save is going to fail automatically, you just remove a model, and then take saves on whoever is leftover with whatever save is leftover.

So yes, you can try to abuse these rules by forcing your units to have mixed armor saves, and make a strategy of it.

smart_alex wrote:then I guess my question now becomes, who and how are they allocated. So if there were 3 ogryn with mixed armor, say the bone 'ead had carapace, and this happened I could assign 4 to each? DOes is have to be evenly allocated?

When allocating wounds per the mixed armor rule you are allocating wounds to the 'armor save' type not to particular models. So you'd allocate 3 wounds to the regular Ogryn, one to the Bone 'ead, 3 more to the regular Ogryn, one more to the Bone 'ead, etc, until all the wounds were allocated.

Then you'd make your saves and actually apply the unsaved wounds to models in that armor save type.

smart_alex wrote:also, it seems like doing this changes things and one can even make a strategey out of it. Just give your squad leader different armor, then if an IG squad takes 10 wounds with 3 in kill zone, rather than making 10 total saves, roll, 4 for one model and 3 each for the others. THis greatly increases chances of the entire squad for survival.

Not really because the effect only occurs when there are more wounds than models in the unit (or kill zone), which actually doesn't occur that often, and when it does it usually results in pretty devestating results for the unit anyway (as so many wounds are coming in you're going to be losing plenty of models regardless).

You can certainly give it a try if you think it's worth it.

I actually use this tactic all the time with nobz in heavy armour. A lot of times the Wrap on the boys kills every boy in the zone, with one hit on the nob for each set of hits that can hit available boyz. You allocate regular hits on the nob, and since it has two wounds, it has to fail two saves to die. This is really helpful when your nob is getting "sniped" by being at the front of a large unit, but only taking wounds on a small "sub-unit" that is in range/los/engaged. Since the nob lives, and can still count his whole squad for combat resolution, this can take a ticky-tack small combat into a decisive second round.

This tactic will work in 5th ed too, but will be much less necessary, as the whole unit will count as range/los/engaged (for casualty removal) so the whole sub-unit thing will go the way of the squats. I really can't wait for this, as this kind of fiddliness is one of the main things that makes the game hard to learn.

It's less useful with guard, as they don't have two wounds, and rarely have powerfists that you want them to survive till I1 with. Still works sometimes though.

Yak is laying truth and wisdom on the thread as usual.

hmm Ok. I will look this over intensly. It just seemed wierd. BUt your probably right.