Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

How can the orks have a larger population, less territory, and less population density?

How can they have a larger population, with less territory?
Unless you litteraly pack them like sardines in a can. Also, from what I've heard orks are by no means Urbanised on the scale of Hive Cities. I could be wrong but point out something comparable to an Ork hive city.
1) It must be as common as Hive Cities
2) It can't be an EX- Imperial City.

You yourself admitted they have a larger population.

And I still don't know where you're pulling this "more territory" stat from.

I didn't admit it. I said it is a possibilty for them to outnumber the ARMED guard forces. Including civies would mean orks are outnumbered by far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(P.S. Imperium is the largest Glactic Empire/whatever the galaxy has ever seen. (Even Eldar were smaller, just more concentrated and...betterer.)

Maybe a real reference should do better:

Codex armageddon ( biggest ork waagh lately )

Orkz
-1304 formations of orkzez, some hundred to 3k strong = estimated 3.912.000
-275 mega-panzaz
-108 gargants

imperium
-273 rgt or equal formations, questionable size. min= 5k strong => 1.365.000
-152 SM comp. => max size = 15.200
-1000 sob
-skittari, unsure. Maybe 14.000-70.000
-5 1/4 Titan Legio = 50-60 titans?

Looks like ork vs imp = 2:1

Now we know why orks believe they got bazillions of orks = can't win otherwise

In a standard 3:1 or 2:1 situation, victory goes to the imperium.

Those still claiming all orks unite and gather, may research the weigth of soo many orks.
Could break the planets surface.

death to the filthy greenskins who blaspheme against the Emperor's with their continued existence in His galaxy!!!!!!

GLORY FOR THE IMPERIUM OF MAN!

btw has anyone read the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer's section on orks? most of it is so wrong its comical lol. there is a pic in there of an guardsman bayoneting a "ork" that is smaller than he is. it also says a guardsman is just as strong as an ork...lol

Manchu wrote:So I guess they were just at home knitting during the first war?

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that during the first war was when the Orks who came to Armageddon infected it with Ork spores and therefore there was no Feral Ork population to do anything...as codex Armageddon says is what happened. I'm not really sure what you're arguing there. Have you read Codex Armageddon? It might give you some interesting insight to the whole Ork vs. Imperium thing since the book is, to a large degree, about Orks vs. Imperium.

Do all of you forget the Orkz of Angelis?


They live a peaceful existence inside of a city.


Therefore if all Orkz are lead by Mekboyz, they can make peace with the Emperor and CONQUER THE GALAXY AND SHARE THE PLUNDER.

Thor665 wrote:Have you read Codex Armageddon? It might give you some interesting insight to the whole Ork vs. Imperium thing since the book is, to a large degree, about Orks vs. Imperium.

I don't have Codex Armageddon. Thankfully, people have been posting snippets from it. Let's see. Hmmm . . .

1hadhq wrote:Orkz
-1304 formations of orkzez, some hundred to 3k strong = estimated 3.912.000
-275 mega-panzaz
-108 gargants

imperium
-273 rgt or equal formations, questionable size. min= 5k strong => 1.365.000
-152 SM comp. => max size = 15.200
-1000 sob
-skittari, unsure. Maybe 14.000-70.000
-5 1/4 Titan Legio = 50-60 titans?

Looks like ork vs imp = 2:1

And Imperials still win. You're right Thor665: this is a very interesting insight. I wonder if Codex Armageddon says anything about those feral Ork populations after the third war?

But to straighten out a possible misunderstanding: the first war was between Imperium (IG, SW, GK) and Chaos (Angron). I don't think there were any Orks around back then to infect the planet. And if there were, they must have been knitting while Angron was being defeated. Or taking notes on being defeated.

@Emperors Faithful
i know you are faithfull to the emperor and stuff but seriously man (i call you man as dispite your apparent mental age your profile states you are 16) you need to admit defeat, its been proved pretty soundly and accepted by everyone on this thread except you that orks massively outnumber humans by a minimum of 2:1.

The necrons have been sleeping for million years, the Orks were created to conquer the Necrons, now that means that the Orks have been around for atleast a million years.

Orks fight each other and eldar/dark eldar/Demons alot now, spores released from one Ork create atleast another hundred Ork.

Ork kill each other that has been going on for million year.

I dont know about you but thats alot of Orks.
Can someone do the math, one Ork in its lifetime releases 100 spores, each become an ork and thats been going for a million years.

That means Orks are never under strenght. Emporer Faithful there are Ork spores in multiply Galaxys and Imperial Sentrys have come back with recorded Ork chatta or something.
That means there are Galaxys full of Orks so we got to count them to

That puts there numbers obviously a little over a trillion probaly more.

Manchu most Orks dont go on a waagh, isnt it in the Codex that there a place in space where all Orks are like nob size and there's trillions of them.

Manchu wrote:But to straighten out a possible misunderstanding: the first war was between Imperium (IG, SW, GK) and Chaos (Angron). I don't think there were any Orks around back then to infect the planet. And if there were, they must have been knitting while Angron was being defeated. Or taking notes on being defeated.

Mmmm, good point, my bad. But, there wouldn't have been an indigenous Ork population during the first or second wars which is what I thought you were asking about when you asked about indigious Orks during the 1st Armageddon War (I'd just presumed it was the first Ork one and had answered thusly) the infection only starts once they show up (in this case the 2nd war aka the initial Ork invasion. In the aftermath of the 3rd Armageddon War all we know for sure is that though (as far as the world-wide tourney that decided the battle which, I submit, tends to show more the relative strength of various army lists at that time) the Imperium managed a narrow victory. Fighting still continues there to this day, the Orks consider it a great place to go anytime they want a fight, and there is still an indigenous Ork population that the Imps have not managed to wipe out. If you want to discuss worlwide campaigns I suppose I could point to the Green Crusade as a sign of Ork superiority in the face of Imperial defenders.

I do think those numbers from Armageddon show an interesting facet about Ork space forces (which I have seen some members dismiss as almost non-existent in this thread). It's also worthy of note that in a fluff concept any Ork mekboy has the capability to create gargants and/or Orkish space craft because he's born with the knowledge on a genetic level. Imperial space and Titan technology is an art that is slowly being lost and if anything were to happen to some of the major production facilities they would be up a special creek sans paddle.

For me the Ork victory is due to the way they are made - they are born with all they need to start killing and making whatever technology they desire. The Imperium has better strategy - but they desperately need it due to a loss of technology know how, vastly inferior population generation, and the foibles of having to train their troops. Yes, the Imperium can easily and handily manage to kill Orks at a 2:1 ratio...but Orks can afford that ratio, and the Imperium cannot.

Still waiting for the orks to admit defeat

You don't need to follow the fluff and insist on " win even when not winning"

Where i did provide a source, this isn't the case for our ork supporters.

Simple fact: Ghaz had 4.000.000 orks. ( C: armageddon) Some imperial worlds have a tithe of 5.000.000 guardsmen. ( BRB )
Sorry, your superior numbers doesn't exist.

The fact stands: C: IG, back => Imperial guard = greatest military in the galaxy.

Now, maybe we drop both promotional pieces ( codex IG and orks ) and return to a useful debate.

1hadhq doent you understand Orks have been around million years and they produce alot of spores in there lifetime and there are lots of Orks in other Galaxys its impossible for the Imperium to win.

Xav wrote:1hadhq doent you understand Orks have been around million years and they produce alot of spores in there lifetime and there are lots of Orks in other Galaxys its impossible for the Imperium to win.

i do understand that orks are longtime inhabitants as a race in this galaxy.

But orks die fast.
Doesnt matter how many had lived in the past or will live in the future.
Its only about the present.

And i did provide something to base on numbers for humans.
If you can't, then surrender.




I offered a "drop the trillions of orks nonsense " and we drop the " mightiest military" claim.
You don't like this offer? Trading something with support from background against ork-fanboi-dreams?
Was a good offer...

Then we must reconquer this galaxy and cleanse it from any xenos. Sorry, isn't personal.

ChaoticOrkz wrote:From the ork codex
"Throughout an Orkoid's life it sheds spore-like cells containing the entire genetic code of the Orkoid races..........The spores are the reproductive mechanism of an orkoid. When they settle in the correct conditions, the spore will evolve into the species whose genetic structure it contains..........It takes quiet a long time for an ork to grow, while the smaller squigs, snotlings and so forth take a shorter length of time to develop. Orkoids do not emerge singly once they have reached the requiered degree of maturity. Due to the nature of the spore process, dozens or even hundreds of orkoids will emerge within a short space of time."

The dot dot dot thing is becuase some of the info was not important!

ChaoticOrkz wrote:since i love quoting things from mi codex!

" Attempts to penetrate the so-called Ork enclaves of Gathrog and Dregruk in the southern regions of the Segmentum have proved unsuccessful. The orks have dominated these areas unchecked since before the founding of the Imperium and it is, quite unreasonably, surmised that within an area of only a few light years there are tens of millions of the creatures. It is possible that in such conditions the Orks' physical proportions are even more pronounced, with whole planetary populations the size of the sub-type known to our warriors as 'skarboys'. When one considers the size of the 'nobz' and 'warbosses' of even relatively small ork armies, one shudders to think of the monstrous creatures that must dominate these cultures. Should ever s uch a monster be filled with a desire for conquest, it is a matter of much debate whther any military means at our disposal could stop them."- Magos Bioligis Rastex

just an excerpt from his "Growth patterns of Orks in variant societies"

[quote=CopsesThink about it, orks have been around for at least as long as the eldar and in that time they have be reproducing and spreading through the galaxy.
If you think humans who have a much slower rate of reproduction than orks and have had much less time to reproduce anyway are more prolific than orks then something is wrong in your calculations.

Dont even get me started on the whole old ones seeding ork spores in multiple galaxies.

Oh, he insists on his wrong ways.....

And again:

Orks do not decide to follow, they fight for it.
Now your "new" orks happily start a friendly debate with tea and cookies and discuss who shall lead?

Sorry, your orks united thing doesn't fly ever.

Not only " every ork in this galaxy, but also every ork in existance".
Ok, we get the traitors back then.

Such claims deserve badly made up counter arguments.


Maybe elaborate why the imperium should have all fluff-restrictions but orks should not ?

If Orks banded together, they could virtually take on the entire galaxy.

As it stands, they are a self-defeating threat with varying danger depending on the Strength and Scope of whatever Warboss leading whatever WARRHHH.

Hey guys, I heard there were like . . . a septrillion orkz or something. Have you heard that???

Sorry , Xav, couldn't resist.

Xav wrote:
Ok 1hadhq you understand that Orks outnumber the Impium greatly. Good, now if waves upon waves of 7 foot monsters charged at you, and you had a gun which is rather inaffective vs them would you hold your ground, not every citizen can fight, every Ork can fight, an syncrinzed Ork assault on multiple planets would destroy the Imperiums morale.
In these distant Galaxys who knows, there might be a greater big Ork then Ghazakk thraza, and a better strategium.

As stubborn german i would need to run out of ammo to even think of regrouping

Bad idea to throw me in. Now your orks will die. All of them without any exception.
Ask why? Simply because GW needs me more than your orks, therefore i get whatever is needed to survive and win!

See, one of the advantages of humans is morale. And strategy, and organization and adaptability. Shall i keep on?

Dumb creatures of war won't cut it in an all out galaxy wide war.
So youre strong? Hint: martial arts, strength may not win.

1hadhq wrote:
Simple fact: Ghaz had 4.000.000 orks. ( C: armageddon) Some imperial worlds have a tithe of 5.000.000 guardsmen. ( BRB )
Sorry, your superior numbers doesn't exist.

I do see where you're going with this, and numberwise it is quite reasonably argued. In fact, I will note you are weakening your arguement by claiming some worlds have a 5 million draft, because there are also worlds with a draft somewhere around *50 million*. However - at the same point - I would note that while you quote the Orks at 4 million you also have to then quote an Armageddon that only had approx. 1.3 million guardsmen (and that's counting PDF). Note that Armageddon is a Hive World with a 50 million annual draft (per 5th rulebook).

I would, personally, submit that there is some inconstancy in the numbers as presented betwixt and between Codex Armageddon and the 5th edition book. While we're at it, for a planetary conquest 4 million is rather silly since even Earth has well over 6 billion people. But then, a defense of 1.3 million is also equally silly since supposedly the guard should be drafting well in excess of that every day if their numbers are to be believed.

I would, to argue numbers, posit the question to you. Do you believe Orks reproduce via their spore method at *least* as functionally as humans do? (this seems silly, as basic logic would dictate they would spawn much, much faster and more efficiently). If you can accept that (and the spore stuff has multiple references on how it works and rough ideas of the number of orks generated) we should accept that on pretty much every world they occupy the Orks should have managed a population at *least* comprable to present day Earth, which would be approx 6 Billion Orks...all of which are born with full knowledge of Ork combat skills and tactics (simplistic though they be). Numbers like that, in my opinion, start to easily seem to dwarf the possibility of the Imp Guard even if you're only paying attention to the 5th edition rulebook and working out the vague number of Ork worlds they discuss.

Is that a reasonable arguement for Ork numbers? If not please let me know where it falls flat and I'll try to clarify/reword it.

@ thor665:

Yes id did restrict guard to 5k per regiment, where the IG codex stated 120.000 strong regiments as possibility.
Also reduced SM to "battle strength", not assumed "more than 1000 ".

Maybe not a good base, but friendly to our ork debate-partners.

On the other side, worked out ork numbers with the estimated 3k per horde, not the mentioned 600-3000.
Dropped the lower numbers for several types of ork formations too and generalized them to 3k.

Handed them an advantage.

But still, armageddon is a stalemate.

The whole concept of outproducing the imperium wont work.
Orks are bound to the planet , whilst the imperium reinforces the planet per space travel.



Orks want to win per higher rate of new recruts?
Do not forget orkz start as ferals. Can't resist to fight amongst themselves.
Ignore both factors and orks should have overrun the galaxy long ago.
But they didn't.
Because losses count.


Numbers from codices or BRB or fluff are fine. Extrapolated numbers are not.

Would be no problem to claim hundreds of vortex missiles for the imperium. Now, one salvo and any ork candidate to lead them united
is sucked into the warp and therefore unavailable.

See, easy produced argument.

Silly?
yes.
As silly as standing cramped together when weapons of mass destruction are at hand. But this is typical GW illustration.

What I think is funny, is that people keep on talking about how the Orks can't win since they can't unify; that they will quickly devolve into an orgy of violence that will destroy their resolve and/or their ability to fight the imperium.

Two words: The Horus Heresy.

Half of the Imperium's forces went rouge and engaged in a massive, bloody civil war which broke the back of humanity's great expansion. Daily, entire planets fall to the ruinous powers, and it is barely all the imperium can to to prevent Chaos from overruning them.

Now, I know people are going to say that this isn't fair, since I'm involving chaos, but it isn't fair to paint humanity as this big, monolithic, single-minded engine of war when they are just as bad at backstabbing each other as Orks; worse in many cases, since at least it is easy for an Ork to know that one of his Nobz is trying a coup, while an imperial commander might be on the cusp of victory, then, *oh snap!* his advisior as a slave to chaos and now opened a portal to the warp that is consuming them all!

Humans falling to chaos is as important a facet of humanity as Orks fighting amoungst themselves. Unless humanity can suddenly say, "ok, we're uncorruptable now!" putting that many different commanders, armies, philoshiphies, and goals and desires together is going to cause a lot of backstabbing and civil wars, chaos influenced or not. It's simpler for the Orks; kill everything not Ork untill there isn't anything not Orky to kill, then hit your friend.

tl;dr:

If you wish to portray humanity as a single minded entity in the war against Orks, while removing their weakness to fight amoungst each other for political power or chaotic influence, you've got to portray the Orks as being a single minded entity that will not backstab each other either; at least, untill the jobs done.

Remember kids: it says in the main rulebook that "if Orks all united, they could crush all opposistion" easily- that includes eldar, necrons, tau (lol, like that would be a problem for anybody ), and 'nids.

So, you can have your implausible "Imperium Undivided" if Orks get an implausible "Waaagh! Undivided" .

@Mekniakal--shenanigans!

In ten thousand years, the Imperium has suffered two schisms: the Horus Heresy and the Age of Apostasy. (The orks experience more division than that in each passing moment.) Now imagine, as we are for the purposes of this discussion, that the Imperium did have to deal with any threat but the Orks. So much more time and resources would be spent on drilling the Imperial propaganda-religion into the heads of every human being that the Imperium would be even more monolithic than it is in the existing fluff. So, to all of this balderdash about "implausible Imperium Undivided" I respond with a resolute "Poppycock!"

How about instead of useless green apes, we have the noble gretchin race finally united, and engaging in a constant state of revolution against both the orkish bourgeois and the human scum that are enslaved by some sort of... uh... big, gold, dead chair.

The Big Gold Chair (remind me to suggest that as a Dakka abbreviation) demands your obedience!

Orkeosaurus, I like the cut of your class-envying jib. How can I subscribe to your newsletter?

Orkeosaurus wrote:How about instead of useless green apes, we have the noble gretchin race finally united, and engaging in a constant state of revolution against both the orkish bourgeois and the human scum that are enslaved by some sort of... uh... big, gold, dead chair.

Rise of the gretchin is a nice idea.

But sorry, chairs are never alive

Our emperor still is with us.
And could fill the gap of the missing brainboyz.

Oh, we won.

All hail the Emporer of the galaxy.
Master of mankind and all thats green.

No unification!?!?!?

" I'm da hand of Gork and Mork. Dey sent me to rouse up da boyz to crush and kill 'cos da boyz forgot what dere 'ere for.
I' da profit of the waaagh 'an whole worlds burn in my boot prints." -Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka

Ghazghkull is all we need!

"I lost two wars. Gork and Mork don't exist!" --Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka

There's some change you can believe in.

The gretchin will destroy your chairs and/or people who sit in them, and create a golden new of age of freedom and equal heights!

Also, if the Emperor is so smart why did he get beat up?