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@ Agnosto : So are you saying you should be able to neuter an entire 1500pt army with one round of Tau shooting?

Kroot loops is right, even playing mech-tau when your firewarriors jump out of their 'fish and get all shooty they still have to survive to the next turn so they can jump back in the 'fish and whatever you just shot WILL assault you after you don't kill all of them.

? How can they possibly assault you? You have the fish in the way?

On an interesting note; I picked up a space marine force for cheap on e-bay and played it for the first time the other night; they shoot better than tau and actually survive assaults...and win! Sergeant with power fist, free special weapon and one heavy weapon choice per full squad of tac marines? yes please. For slightly more than the price of a firewarrior squad plus devilfish, I fielded a 10 man tac squad in a rhino and did 4x the killing and assaulted and won assaults.

Yeah Space Marines do everything better than FWs for a similar cost.

FlingitNow wrote:

? How can they possibly assault you? You have the fish in the way?

I can't shoot him if the fish is in the way, TLOS killed the FoF, unless I had all my models in the kneeling pose which would be cheesy. In any event that would only save me a turn when the inevitable power fist kills the 'fish.

I can't shoot him if the fish is in the way, TLOS killed the FoF, unless I had all my models in the kneeling pose which would be cheesy. In any event that would only save me a turn when the inevitable power fist kills the 'fish.

Depends on how high a base you put the 'Fish on and there's nothing wrong with going all kneeling. Two turns of rapid fire should be enough to take him down.

But I get your point .

Well id hope your fish moved the max distance so its harder to hit >.<

point is skin... FWs blow either make them a little better, or cut back their prices so it frees up points for something that can kill stuff.

why fws blow

yes the 30'' shot is good but if you look at the races where this gun is effective your FWs are now sitting ducks, other races dont really care if you manage to get 1-2 kills into their 3+ save they will be on your next turn then your ENTIRE squad is squished Or just stand back up. Also the races that your not going to get squished in an assault...you know the ones who shoot you back.. well darn i have to make a moral check..and if you have played tau you KNOW your leadership is god awful! you might as well flip a coin to see if your guys break and run (yes its really that bad) oh but you can get bonding knives..why o why would you even be inclined to blow an extra 15 points for this on FWs? 10 for it on crisis suits that well..teams of 3 only works if the team leader stays alive..and well..it only saves 1 suit.

Compare: Marines ATSKNF
Nids: Synapse/fearless (or very good ldr)
Guard: orders to counteract low ldr
Orks: Fearless or bosspole
Eldar: Good ldr, or HQs to fix the problem
etc
etc

So the problem is..shooty army that isnt quite as efficient at shooty as it should be.. all squishy units... worst LDR in the game

although on the bright side of Point decreasing codex... $20+ for 1 crisis suit... hmm lol cheap enough i might be able to just field 12-15 in every army

FlingitNow wrote:

I can't shoot him if the fish is in the way, TLOS killed the FoF, unless I had all my models in the kneeling pose which would be cheesy. In any event that would only save me a turn when the inevitable power fist kills the 'fish.

Depends on how high a base you put the 'Fish on and there's nothing wrong with going all kneeling. Two turns of rapid fire should be enough to take him down.

But I get your point .

Power fist isn't really your concern. It's the 1-2 meltas that are in every marine squad. If you didn't kill them with the FoF, they move up 6", Melta your DF and your FW are now sitting ducks. Also FoF doesn't happen in a vaccum, there are usually other things in range to shoot at your Disembarked FW.

FoF relies on weight of fire. Once your FW squads start getting whittled down they lose their punch quickly (and even more likely, the pathfinder squad being taken out reduces their punch, 48 shots at BS 3 only kills 5.22 marines).

Now don't get me wrong, I win more than I lose with Tau locally, I even win small local tournaments with them. But people locally don't run these super hard lists, most marine armies locally don't have LR, the only one that does only has 1. And against them it's nail biting manuvering and shooting to pull out the win.

It's also highly annoying to be just about the easiest army to tailor a list for. We played a campaign, and the BA player ran rhinos, vindi, and baal preds against everyone else, but every time we played it's almost just jetpack assault infantry across the board

It's also highly annoying to be just about the easiest army to tailor a list for.

So true if you know you are fighting Tau you can quick assault list him to death. Outflank your whole army with SM or Space Wolves, or assault you in turn one with scouts, scoutbikers and Shrike squads etc etc etc...

Although the flip side is Tau are one of the best armies for tailoring to fight a specific army with Suit load outs and Hammerhead/broadside mix...

Tau just needs some revamped tweaks..
LDR fix
Few things cheaper
make marklights more efficient

They have lower BS and thats why they have marker light, or else too powerful

A simple fix would be to make all markerlights networked and non heavy. That way, a FW squad could have a 50% chance of increasing it's own squads BS. Or make Marker Drones half their cost. I could, however, see the argument for BS 4 suits with an integrated Targeting Array, but BS 4 FW's are not the end all answer.

Everyone always states, "They're Tau, there supposed to be really good at shooting!" but this is actually called "begging the question," or using the desired outcome of an argument as proof to support the argument! The Tau's strengths are in its technology, not it's stats. 30in St5 Rapid Fire gun, who else has that? 72inch St10 Ap1 gun, same story!

If you want to hit with Tau, you need Twin-Linking or a decent BS, which is what they have. You just have to pay for it, and it doesn't work all the time. A few tweaks to the Markerlight system, BS 4 Suits, and possibly cheaper transports and FW's would make Tau a force to be reckoned with. But since this discussion has been going on for 8 pages, I'm sure my point has already been stated. The argument is either "Tau deserve BS 4!" or "Shutup and use Markerlights!"

synchronicity wrote:..."Shutup and use Markerlights!"

Exactly!

Skinnattittar is right.

Markerlights are fluffy and logical. Their targeting arrays compensate for their awful vision but they need their targets lit up if they're going to be truly devastating.

Skinnattittar is right.

Markerlights are fluffy and logical. Their targeting arrays compensate for their awful vision but they need their targets lit up if they're going to be truly devastating.

BUT THEY SHOOT THE SAME AS A F&^%ING GRETCHIN!!!

ChocolateGork wrote:BUT THEY SHOOT THE SAME AS A F&^%ING GRETCHIN!!!

And a trained Guardsman, and an Eldar Guardian...really its not as if they're unacceptably bad at shooting, they have other issues, but their ability to mow down infantry with rifle fire is not really one of them.

Jack

Just because books have fire warriors as amazing shots doesnt mean they really are. I read a lot of Guard books because I play guard and in those books they make Guard seem better than they are in game turms(blowing through a marine with a lasgun in 1 shot, and hitting everything with pinpoint accuracy)...the books are designed to make them be all great because who wants to here about hundreds of guardsmen dying to kill one marine when the book was writin for guard fans.

Kazerkinelite wrote:Just because books have fire warriors as amazing shots doesnt mean they really are. I read a lot of Guard books because I play guard and in those books they make Guard seem better than they are in game turms(blowing through a marine with a lasgun in 1 shot, and hitting everything with pinpoint accuracy)...the books are designed to make them be all great because who wants to here about hundreds of guardsmen dying to kill one marine when the book was writin for guard fans.

That's the best part of the Guard for me...their terrible and desperate situation, yet some individuals still find the resolve to perform acts of heroism.

Yes I know way off topic but I think guard books have the most remorse and passion out of any of the other 40k books, you can really relate to a guardsman more than a superhuman space marine or a xeno scum.

Have to agree with Kazerkninelite. Books and fluff about any one race is meant to glorify them, not tell the entire truth. Most Guard books and fluff I read talk about how the majority of the Guard is made up of professional, well trained and equipped, highly disciplined, and extremely effective fighting forces. But I also read a lot of fluff and in other books that talk about the Guard being just billions of conscripts who were handed armor and a lasgun and given a pat on the back right before battle. So it really all depends on which you want to believe in.

Me? I like to think that Guardsmen are well trained and krak shots. So when I see BS3, I take that to mean they are (relatively) good shots, where BS2 is more "rawr! I have a firearm!) and running around one handed pulling the trigger with only the most rudimentary aiming (like Orks generally do).

Well trained Tau, without their tech, are probably just too poor sighted to make good marksmen, but with their gear, they perform very well. Compared to Guard, who have nothing to rely upon but themselves and a basic optic on their lasguns (lasguns have optics, yes). Give Guard similar tech to what a Fire Warrior has, and you have Space Marines.

Skinnattittar wrote:Give Guard similar tech to what a Fire Warrior has, and you have Space Marines.

Space Marines? I think not. Storm Troopers, more like. Space Marines have significant advantages over Guardsmen that Tau-like technology would not replicate, namely their enhanced bodies and decades, if not centuries, of combat experience.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:Give Guard similar tech to what a Fire Warrior has, and you have Space Marines.

Space Marines? I think not. Storm Troopers, more like. Space Marines have significant advantages over Guardsmen that Tau-like technology would not replicate, namely their enhanced bodies and decades, if not centuries, of combat experience.

I meant BS there bud.

Skinnattittar wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:Give Guard similar tech to what a Fire Warrior has, and you have Space Marines.

Space Marines? I think not. Storm Troopers, more like. Space Marines have significant advantages over Guardsmen that Tau-like technology would not replicate, namely their enhanced bodies and decades, if not centuries, of combat experience.

I meant BS there bud.

I assume he was referring to that as well. Tau tech would make IG much more effective...but it wouldn't happen due to the inherent 'Heresy' of the technology.

Che-Vito wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:Give Guard similar tech to what a Fire Warrior has, and you have Space Marines.

Space Marines? I think not. Storm Troopers, more like. Space Marines have significant advantages over Guardsmen that Tau-like technology would not replicate, namely their enhanced bodies and decades, if not centuries, of combat experience.

I meant BS there bud.

I assume he was referring to that as well. Tau tech would make IG much more effective...but it wouldn't happen due to the inherent 'Heresy' of the technology.

"Sir this tech could greatly help us exterminate our enemies!"

"Indeed they could. But using Soulless machines is well . . ."

Skinnattittar wrote:Have to agree with Kazerkninelite. Books and fluff about any one race is meant to glorify them, not tell the entire truth. Most Guard books and fluff I read talk about how the majority of the Guard is made up of professional, well trained and equipped, highly disciplined, and extremely effective fighting forces. But I also read a lot of fluff and in other books that talk about the Guard being just billions of conscripts who were handed armor and a lasgun and given a pat on the back right before battle. So it really all depends on which you want to believe in.

Me? I like to think that Guardsmen are well trained and krak shots. So when I see BS3, I take that to mean they are (relatively) good shots, where BS2 is more "rawr! I have a firearm!) and running around one handed pulling the trigger with only the most rudimentary aiming (like Orks generally do).

I'm sure you have an answer for this but don't penal legionnaires have a BS 3? I mean, you're not going to provide a great deal of marsmanship training to cannon-fodder and you're not going to give them access to guns before a battle so they can turn them on you (ala Russian Commisar). I'm not even going to mention the "stupid" Ogryn having a BS 3.

Yeah, BS 3 is for crack shots.....I think I'll have to disagree with you there.

agnosto wrote:I'm sure you have an answer for this but don't penal legionnaires have a BS 3? I mean, you're not going to provide a great deal of marsmanship training to cannon-fodder and you're not going to give them access to guns before a battle so they can turn them on you (ala Russian Commisar). I'm not even going to mention the "stupid" Ogryn having a BS 3.
Yeah, BS 3 is for crack shots.....I think I'll have to disagree with you there.

Why yes I do have an answer for you. If I recall from the fluff correctly, Penal Legionnaires are Guardsmen who have behaved poorly, to say the least. So they would still have their previous marksmanship training at their disposal. As for Ogryns, yes, it is a bit of a mystery, one you have to get into my "way back" machine to find the answer to. So if you would.... please step into the way back machine.

F-ZAP!

Ooops, Space Hulk, too far back...

F-ZERP!

Ah, here we are, old Guard. Back now, Ogryn Ripper Guns double their number of shots every time their distance to their target is halved. So the closer you get, the more shots. If you are in base-to-base contact? Well, if the weapon can hurt the target, you may as well remove it, because the Ripper Gun would get infinite shots (I'm serious, that's how we played it)! In later editions it was always iplied that the Ripper had a ridiculous rate of fire to compensate for Ogryn stupidity.

And as an example of what a poorly trained, if at all, Imperial with a lasgun could do, look at Conscripts; they are BS2.

Skinnattittar wrote:

agnosto wrote:I'm sure you have an answer for this but don't penal legionnaires have a BS 3? I mean, you're not going to provide a great deal of marsmanship training to cannon-fodder and you're not going to give them access to guns before a battle so they can turn them on you (ala Russian Commisar). I'm not even going to mention the "stupid" Ogryn having a BS 3.
Yeah, BS 3 is for crack shots.....I think I'll have to disagree with you there.

Why yes I do have an answer for you. If I recall from the fluff correctly, Penal Legionnaires are Guardsmen who have behaved poorly, to say the least. So they would still have their previous marksmanship training at their disposal. As for Ogryns, yes, it is a bit of a mystery, one you have to get into my "way back" machine to find the answer to. So if you would.... please step into the way back machine.

F-ZAP!

Ooops, Space Hulk, too far back...

F-ZERP!

Ah, here we are, old Guard. Back now, Ogryn Ripper Guns double their number of shots every time their distance to their target is halved. So the closer you get, the more shots. If you are in base-to-base contact? Well, if the weapon can hurt the target, you may as well remove it, because the Ripper Gun would get infinite shots (I'm serious, that's how we played it)! In later editions it was always iplied that the Ripper had a ridiculous rate of fire to compensate for Ogryn stupidity.

And as an example of what a poorly trained, if at all, Imperial with a lasgun could do, look at Conscripts; they are BS2.

LOL, thanks for the larf.

Forgot about conscripts, I just vaguely remembered that penal legion and ogryn had BS 3.

I can't believe we're still talking about this; I've resigned myself to the waiting game to see what GW will do to make Tau marginally effective again.

Skinnattittar wrote: In later editions it was always iplied that the Ripper had a ridiculous rate of fire to compensate for Ogryn stupidity.

You think they'd just give them a gun with more shots, at a lower BS? Silly GW!

BS 3 really isnt...bad...its just not good...I mean hitting 50% of the time is alright...its just seems like gak for guard cause strength 3 AP - is gak when you hit 10 out of 20 in rapid fire against marines...than you need 5's to wound, than they get there PoS 3+ armor save....i mean i dump loads of las fire on marine squads and end up killing like 3....now tau players shouldnt be upset about BS 3. there guns are strength 6 AP 3? i mean kill marines with not allowing armor saves, and wounding on what a 3+?(dont know tau very well).

Tau standard weapons are the Pulse Rifles. They are R30" S5 AP5 Rapid Fire with their variants being the Pulse Carbine which is similar but R18" Assault 2? with Pinning. If my Guardsmen were all else the same but with those weapons and properly pointed, say +3ppm? I wouldn't be complaining about my BS3. But like any army, there are plenty of people who demand they be better than they are at what they do (and yes, Tau do shooting very well, you just have to play them properly and accept that someone playing an assault army well is going to get and kill you. Just like Guard).

But in Tau player's defense; they do have an uphill battle with an old Codex. But I think the solution is to just adjust Fire Warriors prices, and fix all the other units in the army that are having problems. Meaning; fix Vespids, cheaper Kroot, and something about the Ethereals, I have never actually faced one so I don't know their problems personally (but believe me I have heard the whining!).

Skinnattittar wrote:But I think the solution is to just adjust Fire Warriors prices, and fix all the other units in the army that are having problems. Meaning; fix Vespids, cheaper Kroot, and something about the Ethereals, I have never actually faced one so I don't know their problems personally (but believe me I have heard the whining!).

There is a reason you haven't face Ethereals! 50 points to make one squad have higher LD, and allows rerolls for all Morale checks within sight of the Ethereal. The downside is that if the Ethereal is killed...all Tau units on the board must make a leadership check...bad bad bad.

Kroot are great if the terrain is right.
I'd rather keep the Fire Warrior price, make them a bit better, and keep them with far fewer models than Guard.