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eledamris wrote:Simply put, there is no value in the box set. I challenge anybody to win a game with a High Elf Lord on a griffon, Lothern Sea Guard, Reavers and Swordmasters. They fill the box with these things because when new players actually read the Army Book, they realize that they need to buy entirely new units to win. There's more to consider than simply the dollar value of the boxed game. I'm not complaining about the price, but the value of what's in the box. I don't think they'll sell many of these to anyone but brand new players, mostly kids, who have been duped by GW employees into thinking this is a great deal.

*facepalm*

You do realize that much like Assault on Black Reach, Battle for Skull Pass, etc--this boxed set will have scenarios using those specific models as an introductory way to play, yeah?

If you're expecting to play a game with the contents of a starter box by themselves--you're delusional.

Those same modeling supplies you showed off that GW are selling on mark-up? They're made by a company that specializes in making modeling supplies. They sell to Privateer Press(who sell their supplies for similar prices), to Gale Force 9(again--similar prices), etc.

Really? So the super glue, pva glue, and green stuff are SPECIAL? All those tool are not special either. Its a jewler's saw and a pin vice. The only thing that GW may sell that is specific to miniatures is the sculpting tools, which you can still get much cheaper anywhere. Privateer and Gale Force 9 are out of line with their pricing too. They just follow the GW model.

The fact is that there are plenty of model/miniatures companies out there. But make a comparison and people cherry pick how they are not exactly like GW. Well no company is exactly like GW. They either make the wrong era of miniatures, or use different plastic, or are a different scale, or whatever.

Look I've stated my opinion, I've given numbers. The new box is not a value to me. Nor do I think it should it be to any of anybody else. No one should give their blind allegiance to a company that is in my opinion hosing their customers, whether its on purpose or just plain mismanagement.

Exactly, but there is nothing in this box that you would want to use in a larger army, which means that anyone who already plays Warhammer won't buy it to boost their armies. There is NOTHING in there, other than maybe the clanrats and the characters on foot, that is any good in a larger force. Meaning that you'll have to start all over if you want to build a decent army.

Why would anyone spend $100 just to learn the game, when the miniatures that are included are useless? Sure, you could play the starter scenarios, but after that what do you do? AOBR worked because you always need Space Marines and a Dreadnaught and Termies, and if you're Orks then you get a whole bunch of Boyz and Nobz. BFSP worked because you got a cannon, Thunderers, Warriors and Miners, and for the Gobbos you got a TON of Night Goblins. I used all of it. This one is marketing miniatures that are no good in the game. It seems like they picked the absolute worst build and decided to put it in there with the idea that it would sell more in the long run because people would have to plop down more money to build their High Elf army to actually work. I think it'll backfire though, as people generally don't buy what they don't want, and there are usually enough veteran gamers around to dissuade new ones from dropping money on something they'll regret.

Andrew1975 wrote:

Those same modeling supplies you showed off that GW are selling on mark-up? They're made by a company that specializes in making modeling supplies. They sell to Privateer Press(who sell their supplies for similar prices), to Gale Force 9(again--similar prices), etc.

Really? So the super glue, pva glue, and green stuff are SPECIAL? All those tool are not special either. Its a jewler's saw and a pin vice. The only thing that GW may sell that is specific to miniatures is the sculpting tools, which you can still get much cheaper anywhere. Privateer and Gale Force 9 are out of line with their pricing too. They just follow the GW model.

The fact is that there are plenty of model/miniatures companies out there. But make a comparison and people cherry pick how they are not exactly like GW. Well no company is exactly like GW. They either make the wrong era of miniatures, or use different plastic, or are a different scale, or whatever.

Look I've stated my opinion, I've given numbers. The new box is not a value to me. Nor do I think it should it be to any of anybody else. No one should give their blind allegiance to a company that is in my opinion hosing their customers, whether its on purpose or just plain mismanagement.

You've given absolutely no numbers, nor facts, nor anything besides your opinion--which is a ridiculously uninformed one that's about on par with asking my dog to explain thermodynamics to our neighbor's cat.

As for "plenty of model/miniature companies out there"...of course they don't make things like GW.
Because GW owns its own intellectual property, and they are legally not allowed to make anything protected by GW's IP. To use your ridiculous GI Joe example--Mattel cannot produce GI Joe toys. Hasbro would sue the pants off them if they did. Each company makes things specific to their own properties/licenses. Privateer Press isn't going to start making Deathwing Terminators, nor will Games Workshop start making Menoth Warjacks.

eledamris wrote:Exactly, but there is nothing in this box that you would want to use in a larger army, which means that anyone who already plays Warhammer won't buy it to boost their armies. There is NOTHING in there, other than maybe the clanrats and the characters on foot, that is any good in a larger force. Meaning that you'll have to start all over if you want to build a decent army.

Really? You mean a starter set has nothing that a previously established player would want?

Someone call Guiness! This man's discovered a freakish occurrence!

P.S:
Sea Guard are actually pretty damned good in 8th, as are Swordmasters. And the Griffon is going to be a decent selling item for bitz services and ebay sellers, simply because it's a gorgeous model that's more in line with the current High Elf line than the Eltharion model that's about 10ish years old.

I love that you think you're actually having a grown-up conversation with someone. It's adorable.
Fact: You stated that "Baneblades outsell a limited edition toy set(made up of repainted and reissued components) that you have never seen". Gee. Could that be because, as I pointed out--they sell out within their release week?

Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, couldn't be.

It's this tone that is going to get the tread canceled. Which is what you probably as it pokes holes in GW flimsy excuses for unessential price hikes. And how dare anyone threaten the all might GW.

Whatever.

Again i give facts and numbers....you give nothing but a guess. If you really believe that target sold more limited edition battle boxes in the limited time that they were on the shelves than GW sold baneblades in the history of the baneblade model....id like to see it. I would. I can admit when I'm wrong.


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You've given absolutely no numbers, nor facts, nor anything besides your opinion--which is a ridiculously uninformed one that's about on par with asking my dog to explain thermodynamics to our neighbor's cat.

As for "plenty of model/miniature companies out there"...of course they don't make things like GW.
Because GW owns its own intellectual property, and they are legally not allowed to make anything protected by GW's IP. To use your ridiculous GI Joe example--Mattel cannot produce GI Joe toys. Hasbro would sue the pants off them if they did. Each company makes things specific to their own properties/licenses. Privateer Press isn't going to start making Deathwing Terminators, nor will Games Workshop start making Menoth Warjacks.

These are facts and numbers

These may actually be the most marked up items EVER
Citadel tool kit $120...........Not sure probably $30 at Harbor Freight
Hobby knife $15................$1 at HF
Plastic cutters $15.............$2 at HF
hobby drill $15...................$2 at HF
Razor saw $22...................$2.99, for $7 i get one with a miter box, for $15 I get an 18 piece professional saw set
Crappy air brush $30...........$9.99 the cheapest they had, probably not as crappy as the GW one, 19.99 for the deluxe brush with control, still not a great brush, but leagues
. better than GW's (P.S. GW charges you more because you might use it as a multimelta, that would cut sales)
Super Glue $6.60................3 for $1
PVA glue $8.25..................Really? It's F@@@ing Elmer's glue! $1 anywhere on the face of the planet
Green stuff 20grams $10....$2.99 most anywhere else
Razor Wire $9.50...........$...$.50 Home depot
Work Station $40...............$10 Pat Catan's
Flock $8.25........................Old ladies buy this with their pension money at any craft store for pennies...$1

so are these

2 Tanks (one of them motorized, Pew, Pew, Pew)
1 Flight pod
7 action figures, but for arguments sake 3 are vehicle drives so lets say 3+1 character model

Suggested price $62.99 according to list. I saw it in the stores for $55. I could buy it now new in box on ebay $50.

2 baneblades $99 a piece = $200 (I could have gone with 2 leman russ at $100, but these tanks are giant in comparison to even the baneblades, plus one is motorized)
Land Speeder= $30 (yeah could have used a jet bike $15, but the land speeder is closest in size)
3 marines= $8.25
cheapest character model I could find was marine Sargent 2 = $12.25 (yes he's metal, do you want me to use the $20 plastic marine commander)

$250.50! for unassembled, unpainted more detailed plastic sprue. It's not a perfect analogy but the difference tells the story!

I've given them before, i'll give them again.

Andrew1975 wrote:

I love that you think you're actually having a grown-up conversation with someone. It's adorable.
Fact: You stated that "Baneblades outsell a limited edition toy set(made up of repainted and reissued components) that you have never seen". Gee. Could that be because, as I pointed out--they sell out within their release week?

Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, couldn't be.

It's this tone that is going to get the tread canceled. Which is what you probably as it pokes holes in GW flimsy excuses for unessential price hikes. And how dare anyone threaten the all might GW.

Whatever.

Again I give facts and numbers....you give nothing but a guess. If you really believe that target sold more limited edition battle boxes in the limited time that they were on the shelves than GW sold Baneblades in the history of the Baneblade model....id like to see it. I would. I can admit when I'm wrong.

Look at your own anecdotal evidence. Have you seen that limited edition battle box on the shelves?

No? Where did they all go? Because Hasbro doesn't recall stock and destroy it. They leave it out for sale.

Now go into a Games Workshop and look for Baneblades on shelves, or failing that see if you can get one ordered for you. I can pretty much guarantee you can get one--failing some weird instance of the employee being incompetent.

Look at your own anecdotal evidence. Have you seen that limited edition battle box on the shelves?

No? Where did they all go? Because Hasbro doesn't recall stock and destroy it. They leave it out for sale.

Now go into a Games Workshop and look for Baneblades on shelves, or failing that see if you can get one ordered for you. I can pretty much guarantee you can get one--failing some weird instance of the employee being incompetent.

But that's the point it was a limited run, bane blade is unlimited. It should be cheaper because of a higher production run. As opposed to a limited production run which is much more expensive to manufacturer and yet for some reason was less than 20% of the GW cost even with paint and assembly.

Notice: no smarmy remarks or stuff like that in my post, i'm not trying to get the tread closed.

sorry guys gotto go to work...Stay free, don't let GW tread on you! I'll check back later

Except it's not a truly limited run. They've retaken a specific toy, and packaged it as a "limited run" with minor cosmetic alterations--then hiked the price up.

If GW started offering say, a "Baneblade Commander" box that was strictly limited run, and had a few minor alterations--you'd have a better argument. Even kits that share similar parts(Rhinos and Whirlwinds, for example) end up with dramatically different parts involved.

12thRonin wrote:Yeah, but those are generally complete games and not ones that require multiple hundreds of more dollars dropped on them.

oh yeha absolutely
most lego sets are easily &80-120 nowadays

and you get the same if not more use out of the warhammer sets

eledamris wrote:Simply put, there is no value in the box set. I challenge anybody to win a game with a High Elf Lord on a griffon, Lothern Sea Guard, Reavers and Swordmasters. They fill the box with these things because when new players actually read the Army Book, they realize that they need to buy entirely new units to win. There's more to consider than simply the dollar value of the boxed game. I'm not complaining about the price, but the value of what's in the box. I don't think they'll sell many of these to anyone but brand new players, mostly kids, who have been douped by GW employees into thinking this is a great deal.

Opinion....dressed as fact? SURELY NOT!

You know, someone better tell my customers that this boxed set is pish....otherwise they might, you know, come in and spend money on a product they want! OH NOEZ! Too late! Already been there and done that.

Seriously.

You think the price of IoB is expensive? Parents don't. I should know, I sell it to them. Parents LOVE this Hobby. Why do they love it? Because it gets there kid to socialise and practice reading, writing, mathematics, and of course those all important social skills. Oh, and then there is all the FREE support offered, from beginners sessions, somewhere to game, more advanced painting lessons, lots of activities, none of which are charged for.

Would you cry if I said that for every one person on a Forum who threatens to quit (and lets face it, most don't) I tend to have around 3 new people coming in? Sorry to sink your ship fella, but what you really meant was 'this boxed set has no value.....for me.' Which is fine. It's not for every one. But don't for a second pretend you are every one. You're not. If anything, and my personal experiences prove this, you are very much in a (depressingly vocal) minority.

P.S. Someone was gibbering about GW's markup? Markup might be high, but then profit margin is slightly less than 10% now after major slimlining. But of course, that's due to an inefficient business model, and since you are all clearly Captains of your own chosen industry, and not just spods sat on the Interwebs spouting off, I shall bow to your superior knowledge.

Sorry to sound off like this, but you can only read so much tripe before it's time to get the metaphorical dettol out and clean a little.


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P.S. The comparisson to GI Joe stuff....exactly what use do you get out that particular lump of plastic?

I buy a GW kit for my army, and it's going to get used week in, week out. I get to build it (yay!) paint it (not so yay for me!) and then field it, hopefully knocking seven shades out my opponent.

That is where value is to be found, NOT in the price tag, but the usage.

I have a friend that still gets his pieces 80% off. He has been a promotor of GW since the 80's. Thing is, at 80% off GW still makes a profit.

Several markets have runaway pricing that is based upon the public having an innacurate belief as to the manufacturing process. Top on that list is jewelry. People pay top dollar for jewelry because they have an out-dated stereo-type of some swiss or german dude with a loop in his eye hand cutting the stones. Diamonds have been being precission cut by laser guided robotics since the late 70's to early 80's. Yet because the average consumer has some misguided thought as to the value they often pay a 1000% or more mark up.

A 1000% you might say, "I don't believe it". Doesn't matter what you say, the price is inflated. An example would be the basic gold wedding band. Way back when Gold was $400-ish USD to the once, a solid basic wedding band cost $400 some dollars yet only contained less than $12 dollars worth of gold when melted down. The retailer(Jewelers) were buying their basic blank rings from Asia at $12 - $24 US dollars a ring then would turn around and sell that $24 dollar ring for $250 - $400 US dollars.

What does this have to do with GW you ask? GW has cultivated the image of being a little cottage business when in fact they are a mult-national corp that uses modern production techniques and Asian labour to make their products.

Yes GW still has factories in Britain and the US but they also have plants "in china" making models.

The mark up on GWs product is well in excess of standard retail(Normally 300-400% over cost). The fact that GW is not clearing more money is either a sign of mismanagement or cooked books, imo.

Now, I play their games and have a good time doing so, but I won't delude myself into thinking that they are my friend or even giving me a good value. Why? Because their product is a non-necessity(a luxury) that has a prestige hand crafted price while being a mass produced product.

I still buy their products, because I enjoy the game. Now I will only very rarely reward GW with my cash directly. Instead I buy their products second hand, on sale, through discount wholesalers and my friend who shall remain nameless.

Prove mismanagement then, factoring the cost of running the business, like I dunno, the Wagebill for all their stores (you know, the same stores that are vital, seeing as they supply the fresh blood).

And does your friend really buy at 80% off, because I calll shenanigans....that is considerably lower than other trade accounts by my understanding (which is in itself far from complete).

And what is value, I ask again? Is value something cheap you use once or never, or something of not inconsequential price that you use week in, week out, that also retains significant re-sale value once you're done with it?

P.S. Discount wholesalers...GW still makes their profit, and indeed more through such channels!

GW employees get 50% off products, I highly doubt your friend gets 80% off.


So if at 80% off GW is still making a profit then....
$20 model goes to $4 for your friend.

So less than four dollars to pay for the molding, modeling, designing, packaging, and shipping.... BullSh**

If you're expecting to play a game with the contents of a starter box by themselves--you're delusional.

Funnily enough...
I got Skull Pass as an intro to gaming other than Heroquest,
I took the expression," starter set" to mean that it was a set with which I could start.

So went through the steps with my daughter and guess what? We managed to have a game of Warhammer YAY!

It may have been small, it may not have been Tourney standards but it was a game and we had fun! It was the start of a slippery slope

Starter set suggests entry level and you can get a game of sorts.
It doesn't really matter if it doesn't quite stack up to more sophisticated games as long as the experience is enjoyable and you can get to grips with the mechanics.

Starter set suggests entry level and you can get a game of sorts.
It doesn't really matter if it doesn't quite stack up to more sophisticated games as long as the experience is enjoyable and you can get to grips with the mechanics.

After seeing the starter set play I totally agree. The set plays great, and If you go in with a friends your two armies are easily playable.

Simply put, there is no value in the box set. I challenge anybody to win a game with a High Elf Lord on a griffon, Lothern Sea Guard, Reavers and Swordmasters. They fill the box with these things because when new players actually read the Army Book, they realize that they need to buy entirely new units to win. There's more to consider than simply the dollar value of the boxed game. I'm not complaining about the price, but the value of what's in the box. I don't think they'll sell many of these to anyone but brand new players, mostly kids, who have been douped by GW employees into thinking this is a great deal.

Lol Seaguard are one of the best core choices in the game. Dual type infantry is amazing in 8th. Swordmasters are always go first, re-roll hit great weapons with 2 attacks base (yeah they suck right?), Reavers have vanguard and can be assaulting enemy warmachines in turn one ( yeah they suck also). Griffons are the only thing I agree with you, but still wouldn't be a instant game lose.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

If you're expecting to play a game with the contents of a starter box by themselves--you're delusional.

Funnily enough...
I got Skull Pass as an intro to gaming other than Heroquest,
I took the expression," starter set" to mean that it was a set with which I could start.

So went through the steps with my daughter and guess what? We managed to have a game of Warhammer YAY!

It may have been small, it may not have been Tourney standards but it was a game and we had fun! It was the start of a slippery slope

Starter set suggests entry level and you can get a game of sorts.
It doesn't really matter if it doesn't quite stack up to more sophisticated games as long as the experience is enjoyable and you can get to grips with the mechanics.

That's not the example he was giving though. He was trying to suggest it as a "starter army", 100% legal outside of the confines of that specific scenario set.

You did prove my point, however, in that it's intended to be a way for people to 'start'(egads Holmes!) their army, and get a feel for the mechanics. It comes with pretty much one of everything you'd need to get a decent grasp of the rules: Cavalry, monstrous mounts, mages, weapon teams, etc.

Andrew1975 wrote:
These are facts and numbers

These may actually be the most marked up items EVER
(snip)

I looked at Harbor Freight's at some of your items. Generally speaking, you're off by an order of magnitude, but that's not really the point I'm going with. While It's true Harbor Freight is inexpensive, there is a reason for that: the stuff HF sells is pure garbage. I work next door to one and occasionally have stopped by there for tools. I always regretted it and never go there anymore. While the tools that GWS sells are indisputably overprices, HF is not a fair comparison. A more apt comparison would be a specialty tool site like Micro-mark. MM has better quality, but the prices reflect it.

Please stop pretending, as others have, that the spray gun is an airbrush. They never claimed it was, they never describe it as such, and they never pretend it is. It's a foolish and overpriced product that hardly needs to be conflated with a better product to be ridiculed.

Mr Mystery wrote:Prove mismanagement then, factoring the cost of running the business, like I dunno, the Wagebill for all their stores (you know, the same stores that are vital, seeing as they supply the fresh blood).

And does your friend really buy at 80% off, because I calll shenanigans....that is considerably lower than other trade accounts by my understanding (which is in itself far from complete).

And what is value, I ask again? Is value something cheap you use once or never, or something of not inconsequential price that you use week in, week out, that also retains significant re-sale value once you're done with it?

P.S. Discount wholesalers...GW still makes their profit, and indeed more through such channels!

1)A company that has a better than 400% mark up having to pass financial difficulties onto the customer.

2)Did I say Trade acount? Look at what I said again and if you are familiar with business and sales there should be a word that jumps out at you.

3)That is how you choose to interpret the word.
Merriam Websters defines Value as:
1 : a fair return or equivalent in goods, services, or money for something exchanged
2 : the monetary worth of something :market price
3 : relative worth, utility, or importance
4 : a numerical quantity that is assigned or is determined by calculation or measurement <let x take on positive values>
5 : the relative duration of a musical note
6 a : relative lightness or darkness of a color : luminosity b : the relation of one part in a picture to another with respect to lightness and darkness
7 : something (as a principle or quality) intrinsically valuable or desirable <sought material values instead of human values — W. H. Jones>

Personally I was refering to market value.

4) There is a reason why people go into retail, to make money. If GW wholesale is more profitable than thier retail, that is your proof of mis-management.

Liquidice281 wrote:GW employees get 50% off products, I highly doubt your friend gets 80% off.


So if at 80% off GW is still making a profit then....
$20 model goes to $4 for your friend.

So less than four dollars to pay for the molding, modeling, designing, packaging, and shipping.... BullSh**

1) Read my post again. There is a word in there that should explain how/why he gets his stuff cheap. If you have ever dealt with retail the word will jump out at you and you won't question the discount.

2)Shocking but true. I am constantly amused at how people just can't grasp how mass production works and I out right giggle at what people estimate packaging and design costs to be. You see, the total cost for that 20$ model is somewhere in the $2-$3 range(And that is being a little generous)

This is how the basic retail model works. From the average consumers pov you have Retail, Sale, and Clearance. For the shrewd consumer and for business owners you have Wholesale Business level 1, business level 2 and Cost. Pricing goes as follows for items considered to be of a fair value. You take all of the material, labour, packaging, utilities, equipment(including replacement) and design costs and divide by production time to get Cost.
You then double cost to get to wholsale, then you double the price again to get a 300% mark up to retail. At 300% mark-up your cost is 25% of your retail and a 75% discount you break even. If you change to a 400% mark-up cost is only 20% and at an 80% discount you break even.(This doesn't include possible tax breaks for selling below wholsale )
Now remember what I said about GW operating with over a 400% mark-up, this is how there can be a profit when discounting 80%.

Generally 300% to 400% retail Mark-ups are considered to be the norm for open market pricing.

Now back to the average consumer. Retail is the full marked price and there is a joke in the retail industry that says retail is for suckers.
Sale pricing is uually up to a 20-25% discount
Clearance usually 25-50%(Note that because of being more than a 200% mark up that 50% discount /= Wholesale
Wholesale is often 50%+ discount and cost is a 75-80% discount.

I am sure that some of you will disagree with this, thats fine. You don't have to believe me. As a matter of fact, I encourage you to not take my word. Instead go out and research for yourself, an educated buyer is a friend to all other buyers.

Elementary my dear Watson!

Beg your pardon Kanwulen
(Missed that, it was late etc)

I looked at Harbor Freight's at some of your items. Generally speaking, you're off by an order of magnitude, but that's not really the point I'm going with. While It's true Harbor Freight is inexpensive, there is a reason for that: the stuff HF sells is pure garbage. I work next door to one and occasionally have stopped by there for tools. I always regretted it and never go there anymore. While the tools that GWS sells are indisputably overprices, HF is not a fair comparison. A more apt comparison would be a specialty tool site like Micro-mark. MM has better quality, but the prices reflect it.

Please stop pretending, as others have, that the spray gun is an airbrush. They never claimed it was, they never describe it as such, and they never pretend it is. It's a foolish and overpriced product that hardly needs to be conflated with a better product to be ridiculed.

Harbor freight's tools are not crap, I use their tools all the time. But I'll even forgo those. If GW has the rocks to charge $8.50 for elmers glue, $6 for superglue and $10 for 20grams of greenstuff (products that you can easily ascertain the prices for) you really think they don't have the rocks to hose their customers on minis, (products whose production cost is unlisted anywhere because it would cause a riot)? Don't tell me these are special products!

Sorry I never used the spray gun airbrush...thing, whatever it is. I've had a good airbrush for years along with an air compressor, both from harbor freight.

Prove mismanagement then, factoring the cost of running the business, like I dunno, the Wagebill for all their stores (you know, the same stores that are vital, seeing as they supply the fresh blood).

Are GW stores vital? I've never been in one, we don't have any in Cleveland, (yes start Cleveland jokes in 3.2.1).Hell I don't even knw if we have them in the state of OHIO. Ideally the GW stores should make money not cost money. Every product sold there is pure profit, no cut goes to the retailer. If the stores can't cover their own costs then they should be closed. Running stores that can't even pay for themselves, much less make a profit for the company especially if they are this vital link then sales should be huge....well that is a prime example of mismanagement.

P.S. The comparisson to GI Joe stuff....exactly what use do you get out that particular lump of plastic?

I buy a GW kit for my army, and it's going to get used week in, week out. I get to build it (yay!) paint it (not so yay for me!) and then field it, hopefully knocking seven shades out my opponent.

That is where value is to be found, NOT in the price tag, but the usage.

I know about GI Joe's, I dont have any. But I played with them a hell of alot when I was a kid. Is that really that different than what you do with your toys?

The value is in the usage, not the price?

There are many different kinds of value. Lets talk about two of them

I'm happy for you that you have a great time with your minis. The absolute value of them however is very low and that means that GW is overcharging you.

The relative value is great, but variable for all people. Not a great thing to base a business on.

example : Hey use my super glue it's $6.50,

Relatively its worth $6.50 because it is the best super glue EVER and its got a big GW on it. You are gonna use it to build GW models so this super glue provides you with years of play.

Absolutely you bought a tube of Cyanoacrylate, available at most stores 3 tubes for $1. It works as well as the $6.50 Cyanoacrylate, because it is all Cyanoacrylate.

This "you are worth it", "yes these are bugle boy jeans I am wearing" sales technique is usually used by snake oil,and used car salesmen to part customers from their hard earned cash by selling them products with little or no absolute value.

If you are happy paying the relative value for products go ahead, keep doing it. I however will pay absolute with some added on for the producers troubles.

You know, someone better tell my customers that this boxed set is pish....otherwise they might, you know, come in and spend money on a product they want! OH NOEZ! Too late! Already been there and done that.

You know at least you have a reason to stand up for GW. You sell their product! Can't really expect a unbiased opinion from you, but you are the first person I can understand defending these prices. I can respect that. This puts food on your families plate.

Except it's not a truly limited run. They've retaken a specific toy, and packaged it as a "limited run" with minor cosmetic alterations--then hiked the price up.

um no. They are new toys, as different from the old GI JOE MOLDS as the new leman russ it to the old one, What was the price hike on that fiasco? Then they actually gave the customers a break on the price for the box, not hicked it up. It's called a bulk discount, something GW customers may not be used to. Do you save money by buying the large army boxes.....NOPE. Again wrong facts from you. These were not all $15.99 a piece, in fact the motorized tank was not released separately in the 25th anniversary line, but had it it would have been more than $15.99. Please don't make up prices for the products in my examples. I know it serves your purposes, but it's not very sporting or accurate is it?

As for "plenty of model/miniature companies out there"...of course they don't make things like GW.
Because GW owns its own intellectual property, and they are legally not allowed to make anything protected by GW's IP. To use your ridiculous GI Joe example--Mattel cannot produce GI Joe toys. Hasbro would sue the pants off them if they did. Each company makes things specific to their own properties/licenses. Privateer Press isn't going to start making Deathwing Terminators, nor will Games Workshop start making Menoth Warjacks.

I actually wrote

The fact is that there are plenty of model/miniatures companies out there. But make a comparison and people cherry pick how they are not exactly like GW. Well no company is exactly like GW. They either make the wrong era of miniatures, or use different plastic, or are a different scale, or whatever.

Please use the entire quote. This has nothing to do with IP.

The point was that every time a comparison is made people cherry pick a reason why a product is different from GW products "wrong era" "different market" " Different plastic" so you can never make a comparison. By your logic here I can't compare Burger King to McDonalds because Burger King doesn't have a big mac. You can make a comparison between a warjack and a dreadnought. A model tank and a banebalade. A historical model and a sci fi model.

Just stop twisting my words and adding your own incorrect facts to this topic

There is no value in those new boxed sets. thats why only noobs will be the ones pounding over them.

Its GW, you didn't expect anything less, did you?

You can do what other people are doing, look for other systems and find new games to play that 90 bucks will get you your moneys worth or get the stuff second hand.

As for GW "Snagging" new players? They'll do what they always do. Shell game them in and nickle and dime them into the game and twice as fast out, like they always do.

Best thing for the rest of us is that the secondary market will be booming.

I hate to break it to you, but the GW apologist rant is falling on deaf ears after this last go around.

I don't know any Cleaveland jokes, but GW's sales is really starting to become one.

"How much did those whopping ten guys cost again?" More then the 24 did before? Baw haw hawhaw!!!!!

Stuff sold in Company stores is pure profit is it? Now you have just proven you are talking absolute bollocks.

Why?

Two Tactical Squads are being sent out to retail store. One is going to a FLGS. At this point, the costs incurred in this process by GW is production (including all aspects, like creation to mould making) packaging and shipping. The other is going out to a store GW run. Which means this box has the added cost of you know....rent, insurance, employees, electric, council rates.

My word, you really do just go off on a self righteous crusade?

See I thinkmy main 'worry' is when GW does price themselves out of business what happens then? There will be a void with no rules, who will own the IP?

They need to gather longer term customers. A system based n fleecing someone for a £200-400 army then getting rid of them isn't going to work.

So you know nothing about GW policy then. Well, that's clearly an awesome place to make unquantified statements from!

The Stores are there for Recruitment primarily. They are how new people get into the Hobby. Retention? That's where clubs and groups come into it. The Shop is a central hub, and if you depend purely upon it, then that is your choice.

Support IS available for clubs that the company know about (as in GCN Registered. Legal stuff sadly!) and it's something we can only advise on.

agnosto wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:
Computer games have a very unusual pricing model. Few items are steadily reduced in price as the design ages. It would be nice to buy a new car for 50-25% of it's original purchase prices because that model came out a few years ago....

I guess cars in England don't depreciate as fast as they do here...
A $20,000 (USD) car that is just three years old is worth about $11,616. That's just a straight number and doesn't take into account factors like wear and tear...
http://www.carprice.com/depreciation-calculator

We're not talking about second hand. We're talking about buying new but it's a model that's been available for a few years. For example, the Evo X was GBP36K fully loaded when it launched in 2007 - if they followed the computer game pricing model I should be able to buy one new for around GBP20K now.


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asmith wrote:@ scott-s6: I highly doubt that any particular version of DVD player sells hundreds of millions per year. Maybe all of the hundreds of models out there combine for hundreds of millions of year, but likely we are talking approximately the same number in regards to individual units. The reason DVD players are so much cheaper is because the people who make them operate at very low margins.

There are many different models but many fewer different components. Lots of the key components are produced by only a handful of companies which then sell them on. There is an enormous saving on production in these scales.


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loki old fart wrote:I dont think GW models are good value.
If companies like tamiya can produce kits for 32 pounds
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TAMIYA-JS-2-Russian-Heavy-Tank-1-35-MILITARY-35289-/220648584821?pt=UK_ToysGames_ModelKits_ModelKits_JN
or this http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TAMIYA-1-35-SCALE-GERMAN-PANTHER-TANK-FIGURE-/260540304499?pt=UK_ToysGames_ModelKits_ModelKits_JN
for 14 pounds

The panther isn't a great model. The JS2 isn't bad and compares fairly well price-wise to GW. Personally, I prefer AFV club which are a bit more expensive (£35-45) but kick the crap out of GW's vehicles.

No look GW will be fine. The bubble will burst just like it does in any artificially inflated market. SEE HOUSING CRISIS. It will probably be burst by competition, and GW will have to defend it's market share. Which they will do just fine, they will just figure out all the practices that they are doing wrong. Like the American car manufacturers, they will trim the fat and be better for it. Prices will go down, 40K will still be there. You'll have angry customers because that $100 model they bought is now $50, but they will get over it once they see what they can now buy with the cash they still have.

Kanluwen wrote:That's true. Not denying that upgrade kits can be overpriced.

But take a look at some scale model upgrade kits sometime. 8GBP is about right for upgrades that are 'decent' quality. There's an upgrade kit out there that's used to convert a 1/35 scale HMMV into a 'Gunwagon' that is nearly $150 for what amounts to 10 parts.

Some of the military modelling aftermarket stuff makes ForgeWorld look cheap.
http://www.relishmodels.co.uk/pavla-models-1-48-bac-tsr-2-nose-wheel-bay-set.html
£11 for a resin nosewheel bay (that's the space the front wheel on a plane retracts into, it's a tiny little part)

It's not a tiny little part
It is 1/48 scale on a TSR2

There is a lot of intricate casting on the inside of the walls.

13 quid sounds about right for a resin AM piece of that size.
Though I will admit that it is fairly steep for Pavla. Some of the AM stuff is pricey but the quality is very good from what I have seen.
I will also defend Relish who give a discount and excellent service in my experience.

GW prices to kits comparison is pee poor imho
What you apparently get in an AFV kit knocks spots off what you will get for the same dollar in a GW kit.

It is a sad fact though that some manufacturers of kits are trying their level best to catch up with GW's pricing policy.
(Please note I have no connection other than a customer to Relish)


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Actually I take that back Scot, it is a tad on the expensive side now I think about it as I was originally overestimating the size.

Reason I say that is also due to some of the Pavla castings I have seen are rather dodgy at times. Though this one looks a lot crisper.

It's all academic to me as I don't get such sets.

2 Tanks (one of them motorized, Pew, Pew, Pew)
1 Flight pod
7 action figures, but for arguments sake 3 are vehicle drives so lets say 3+1 character model

Suggested price $62.99 according to list. I saw it in the stores for $55. I could buy it now new in box on ebay $50.

2 baneblades $99 a piece = $200 (I could have gone with 2 leman russ at $100, but these tanks are giant in comparison to even the baneblades, plus one is motorized)
Land Speeder= $30 (yeah could have used a jet bike $15, but the land speeder is closest in size)
3 marines= $8.25
cheapest character model I could find was marine Sargent 2 = $12.25 (yes he's metal, do you want me to use the $20 plastic marine commander)

$250.50! for unassembled, unpainted more detailed plastic sprue. It's not a perfect analogy but the difference tells the story!

Post of the week mate

And to the people saying "50 quid computer game gave me hours of fun, hundreds spent on GW products in the attic/can only play once a week" thats your problem, not GWs.
No one asked you to spend that amount of money on a hobby you obviously couldnt devote the time to make the most out of.
Let me guess, getting home in the evening and booting up your Xbox is a hell of a lot easier then setting up a gmae of 40k right? Tough
Set some time aside and quit whinging. You obviously have some armies there that are playable albeit perhaps out of date, what stops you playing some FLGS games or with friends. Are you so vain or needy that you must have the most up to date model or the very latest release. Hell 1/2 my armies are 2nd edition models but they still work/are usuable and lord knows I havent converted/updated any of them.

And GW products are a luxury item btw.

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