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Monster Rain wrote:

keezus wrote:Hey gang... thought I might jump in here for a second and note that according to this useful tool: http://www.merzo.net/

Re: The Borg... The cube has the advantage in high speed combat. If it tractor-beams ANYTHING, its advantage is lost. I'm fairly sure the projectile ordinance from an Imperial Capital ship would probably one-shot the cube, considering the Enterprise's puny torpedoes could damage them.

What's puny about Photon Torpedoes?

They're pretty brutal, man. Antimatter makes a big boom.

A boom of measly 64 megatons.

Asherian Command wrote:Also guys i have been noticing you guys have been like freaking attacking each other with clubs. Please calm down, its not like the world revolves around this discussion. Please be more considerate and more thoughtful in your posts please.

I disagree. I thought we were getting along quite nicely.

Ivan you mad bro?

No,I'm just tired of Borg spankers.

Now that I'm thinking about it, Q could also whipsmack the IoM by himself.

I didn't know why I didn't think of that sooner. Star Trek is definitely > IoM.

IvanTih wrote:No,I'm just tired of Borg spankers.

I understand that your worldview has been shaken to it's core.

Why don't we take a deep breath, admit the The Borg's technological superiority puts them in a class above the Imperial Navy, and we'll all feel a lot better about this.

Yes, a Lance strike blows up the first cube but then that's it. It'll be the first and last cube to go that way. Missiles, torpedoes and mass drivers will still work but a cube can take 78% structural damage and keep fighting.

Asherian Command wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:No Borg would not work again. Their ships are like flys against a FREAKING SUN! The imperium being the sun. As the star trek universe has no weapon that can pierce warp shields and all the imperium has to do is send in a Ship and turn on the self destruct button. Borg weapons may be able to cut through steel. But not adamantium. Which is 5x more denser than titanium.
The IoM has no weapons that the borg could absorb. One shot from a lance. Dead.
And not only that but only one race of beings could f--king rape the imperium of man...
The Reapers!
I mean seriously! Mass effect ships are 2 kilometres long. And they get owned. By a freaking space octopus!
Nothing in the 40k universe Could resist 500,000 of these bastards. as they are AI's and their armor is almost impenetrable.

Also guys i have been noticing you guys have been like freaking attacking each other with clubs. Please calm down, its not like the world revolves around this discussion. Please be more considerate and more thoughtful in your posts please.

Reapers have less firepower than IOM,probably in double digit gigatons or triple digit gigatons.

O.o
Really? Because they blow up entire planets With one reaper.
Plus I also noticed at the ship website that there was no Emperor Class ship or Apocalypse class ship. Which is freaking huge.

Yes I know that,but I wonder why was the hull penetrated after shields failed?



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KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes, a Lance strike blows up the first cube but then that's it. It'll be the first and last cube to go that way. Missiles, torpedoes and mass drivers will still work but a cube can take 78% structural damage and keep fighting.

All of those weapon will one shot cube,Borg adaptation isn't god like.

keezus wrote:Hey gang... thought I might jump in here for a second and note that according to this useful tool: http://www.merzo.net/

Clicking on the -10 tab shows the relative sizes of the ships. Note the comparative size of the COBRA to the Shadow/Vorlons and the comparative size of the Retribution class to the Borg. While possibly a threat to the escort classes (and below), I'm not sure the Vorlons/Shadows have the firepower to threaten the bigger craft.

Re: The Borg... The cube has the advantage in high speed combat. If it tractor-beams ANYTHING, its advantage is lost. I'm fairly sure the projectile ordinance from an Imperial Capital ship would probably one-shot the cube, considering the Enterprise's puny torpedoes could damage them.

Its nice but its not necessarily accurate. A shadow vessel is about the size of an IoM escort/light cruiser (remember BFG never states fixed sizes).
http://www.b5tech.com/oldb5tech/shadows/shadowships/shadowbattlecrab.html

Having said that size only matters in wrestling.

I agree on the tractor beam. They beam they lose their speed advantage and the IoM ship can open up a can of whoopass.

@IvanTih: Re: The Borg's seeming inviciblity.

Advantages: Assimilation of alien technologies to add to their arsenal. Group mind alows for greater processing power when trying to find solutions for problems. Subspace communications alows for huge amounts of bandwidth for data exchange. Cybernetic enhancement gives drones resistance (not immunity) to harsh elements. Extensive use of nanomachines alows for swift expansion of the collective as well as rapid fashioning of new equipment.

Disadvantages: Disruption of the collective mindset removes all their advantages leaving only seperate drones in confusion and without purpose. Even though the Borg posess enormous processing power through their group mind - its processing power is still directed by the queens and is therefore limited by the queen's imagination and innovation. The Borg appear to lack creativity, perfering to advance through assimilating new skillsets, biological enhancements and technologies. While capable of developing and synthesizing new methods, when confronted with a situation where their usual methodology fails, the Borg usually respond by increasing the amount of brute force. It is only when their foe is such that no amount of brute force can overcome them do they pursue other avenues of thought.

So while they are not omnipotent as you state, their canon advantages are not insubstantial.

Monster Rain wrote:Now that I'm thinking about it, Q could also whipsmack the IoM by himself.

I didn't know why I didn't think of that sooner. Star Trek is definitely > IoM.

IvanTih wrote:No,I'm just tired of Borg spankers.

I understand that your worldview has been shaken to it's core.

Why don't we take a deep breath, admit the The Borg's technological superiority puts them in a class above the Imperial Navy, and we'll all feel a lot better about this.

Because Q do that in every debate.
Technological superiority?
Who cares if IOM throws amount of firepower that Borg can't handle!

IvanTih wrote:All of those weapon will one shot cube,Borg adaptation isn't god like.

Actually, it pretty much is.

One Borg Cube pretty much pwnt the entire Federation, which is technologically superior to the IoM in nearly every way. They can alter their ships and bodies to not be affected by certain energy wavelengths so yeah, a Lance would one-shot a cube or two, and then they wouldn't work anymore.

Also, according to this matter doesn't even penetrate Deflector Shields so all that conventional weaponry would bounce.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Shields

Frazzled wrote:Having said that size only matters in wrestling.

Not always...

That being said, I don't think Rey Mysterio Jr. has any chance vs. the Imperium.

@keezus
First, the obvious question: is this really a myth? Or is it the reality of Star Trek? Well, it is pretty obviously a myth. The Borg were unable to assimilate Species 8472 life forms or bioships in "Scorpion". They were unable to assimilate Data when they captured him in STFC. The Hirogen border their territory and have resisted assimilation for thousands of years. The Dyson Sphere seen in "Relics" has undoubtedly been sitting around for millions of years, given the extent to which its star's aging process had progressed, yet it showed no signs of Borg encroachment. The Voth also border Borg territory, and appear to have no fear of Borg assimilation whatsoever. We have several concrete examples of their inability to assimilate biological life forms and/or technologies. Is any more evidence necessary? The Borg obviously cannot assimilate any and every life form or technology, and we have canon proof for this conclusion.


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Monster Rain wrote:

IvanTih wrote:All of those weapon will one shot cube,Borg adaptation isn't god like.

Actually, it pretty much is.

One Borg Cube pretty much pwnt the entire Federation, which is technologically superior to the IoM in nearly every way. They can alter their ships and bodies to not be affected by certain energy wavelengths so yeah, a Lance would one-shot a cube or two, and then they wouldn't work anymore.

Nice try,trekkie IOM is technologicaly superior to Borg and Federation.
Borg aren't god like.

How about Specis 8472 vs. The IoM?

IvanTih wrote:Nice try,trekkie IOM is technologicaly superior to Borg and Federation.
Borg aren't god like.

How so?

It takes years to travel across the Galaxy for the IoM, requiring witchcraft and possible daemonic incursion. Star Trek ships, which are faster even when they aren't at Warp Speed, move considerably faster.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:How about Specis 8472 vs. The IoM?

IOM defeats it,that planet destroyig thing is chain reaction not brute force.

keezus wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Having said that size only matters in wrestling.

Not always...

That being said, I don't think Rey Mysterio Jr. has any chance vs. the Imperium.

Youngin. Jake the Snake could, without taking off his sunglasses. IoM pwoned!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes, a Lance strike blows up the first cube but then that's it. It'll be the first and last cube to go that way. Missiles, torpedoes and mass drivers will still work but a cube can take 78% structural damage and keep fighting.

Oh really? So if one is blown up an no message could of been sent? Then WHAT THE ! They are not freaking gods! One lance goes through them destorying everything. Leaving nothing behind! And thats from a :beep: Retrubition class the most ordinary ship in the imperium! Just imagine a Emperor Class ship. Its lances = instant win. Because they go through planets! But they are never used like that. You guys also forget the Apocalypse and the Armaggeddon class imperial ships! Those things don't give a damn what your ship has. Its weapons just pierce through everything. And not only that but they would ram your ass with their bloody hulls. As their ship armor is made out of adamantium! So why do you guys believe that the borg has made some super powerful weapon? where they defeated in Star Trek? Yes they were. Pretty easily infact. So why all the hate?
I use to think Star Trek had the best ships for the longest time.... But then I saw the imperail ships and was like ":beep: thats alot of firepower. Even a Borg ship would not stand up to a lance!"

Monster Rain wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Nice try,trekkie IOM is technologicaly superior to Borg and Federation.
Borg aren't god like.

How so?

It takes years to travel across the Galaxy for the IoM, requiring witchcraft and possible daemonic incursion. Star Trek ships, which are faster even when they aren't at Warp Speed, move considerably faster.

Well probably because the Imperail ships are huge! And they have more mass! Cobras are the size of startrek ships (and a little larger) and they are pretty damn fast!

@IvanTih: Its true that the Borg can't assimilate any and every life form or technology... YET. 2 notes here.

First off, even though they can't assimilate everything, it doesn't stop them from trying.

Secondly, when they can't, if their targets are thankful to have defended their borders and stay there - the Borg will leave them alone - until such time they think that they have a better chance at assimilating them.

They were unable to assimilate Species 8472 due to resistance to their normal mode of operation: nanoprobes. The aliens were fighting back and causing damage - so they moved to Phase 2: Kill Species 8472. This wasn't working too well either, despite no lack of trying. As a result, they were forced to consider other alternatives and the Voyager writers got to put a catsuit clad Jeri Ryan on the show.


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Frazzled wrote:Youngin. Jake the Snake could, without taking off his sunglasses. IoM pwoned!

Jake the Snake isn't small though...!

Monster Rain wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Nice try,trekkie IOM is technologicaly superior to Borg and Federation.
Borg aren't god like.

How so?

It takes years to travel across the Galaxy for the IoM, requiring witchcraft and possible daemonic incursion. Star Trek ships, which are faster even when they aren't at Warp Speed, move considerably faster.

Maybe in FTL(only Borg and few other races,other just use that slow ST Warp drive).

More advanced energy generation,better medicine,robotics,weapon(vortex weaponry),superior materials and bio technology.


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I wonder how are borg going to adapt to weapon which throws firepower which one shots them.It is impossible to adapt against something that throw more firepower than you can absorb.
Their shields and hull can't handle that.

Monster Rain wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Nice try,trekkie IOM is technologicaly superior to Borg and Federation.
Borg aren't god like.

How so?

It takes years to travel across the Galaxy for the IoM, requiring witchcraft and possible daemonic incursion. Star Trek ships, which are faster even when they aren't at Warp Speed, move considerably faster.

Ah At least an Imperium ship can travel across the Galaxy. A starfleet ship takes forever to just cross a tiny little quadrant of it.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Nice try,trekkie IOM is technologicaly superior to Borg and Federation.
Borg aren't god like.

How so?

It takes years to travel across the Galaxy for the IoM, requiring witchcraft and possible daemonic incursion. Star Trek ships, which are faster even when they aren't at Warp Speed, move considerably faster.

Ah At least an Imperium ship can travel across the Galaxy. A starfleet ship takes forever to just cross a tiny little quadrant of it.

It takes 10-40 days to cross 10k light years for a troop transport.-That's from 2nd Edition of the Imperial Guard codex

Battle_Brother_Bruening wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:The novels are really inconsistent man. I wouldn't want to use them as proof of anything, unless you'll allow for one World Eaters captain to be able to whoop up on a disgusting number of Word Bearers.

or some tribesmen with bows take out some chaos marines.

Hahahah very true.... how can an iron dart (albeit with unknown moth venom) take down a CSM fully armored... its like the rain... yeah you notice you got hit but it can't kill you unless you get really really lucky.

Because he wasn't fully armoured. Remember everyone if you get your own suit of power armour wear your helmut!

IvanTih wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Nice try,trekkie IOM is technologicaly superior to Borg and Federation.
Borg aren't god like.

How so?

It takes years to travel across the Galaxy for the IoM, requiring witchcraft and possible daemonic incursion. Star Trek ships, which are faster even when they aren't at Warp Speed, move considerably faster.

Maybe in FTL(only Borg and few other races,other just use that slow ST Warp drive).

More advanced energy generation,better medicine,robotics,weapon(vortex weaponry),superior materials and bio technology.

Let's see... ST Warp Drive, at Warp 10, takes you 132 Light Years in one Month. Without the need for Voodoo.

Energy Generation? Romulans have a black hole powering every single one of their Warbirds so ST wins. Better medicine? In the IoM? You need to learn more about ST before you even try going down that road. There's way too much wrong with that statement for me to explain here. The other stuff just seems tacked on.

And again, matter doesn't penetrate deflector shields so the IoM can shoot missiles at the Borg all day, it won't bother them.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Nice try,trekkie IOM is technologicaly superior to Borg and Federation.
Borg aren't god like.

How so?

It takes years to travel across the Galaxy for the IoM, requiring witchcraft and possible daemonic incursion. Star Trek ships, which are faster even when they aren't at Warp Speed, move considerably faster.

Ah At least an Imperium ship can travel across the Galaxy. A starfleet ship takes forever to just cross a tiny little quadrant of it.

FINALLY! The Imperium FTL is pretty damn good! The only reason why it takes years for one ship to get across a entire gaxaly is because they have to literally navigate around the warpstorms. Its only unreliable because of daemon incursions. In the prehersey they did not have to worry alot about it.
Dude the imperium medicine is actually pretty decent. They are just faced with freaking super viruses that would wipe out an entire species!
When an imperial guardsmen arm is shot off they just replace with it bionics. But this bionics is pretty different from other bionics in other gaxalies. It acts like the original thing and it works pretty well. And people in the 40k universe only get eye bionics just because it looks cool..

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Battle_Brother_Bruening wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:The novels are really inconsistent man. I wouldn't want to use them as proof of anything, unless you'll allow for one World Eaters captain to be able to whoop up on a disgusting number of Word Bearers.

or some tribesmen with bows take out some chaos marines.

Hahahah very true.... how can an iron dart (albeit with unknown moth venom) take down a CSM fully armored... its like the rain... yeah you notice you got hit but it can't kill you unless you get really really lucky.

Because he wasn't fully armoured. Remember everyone if you get your own suit of power armour wear your helmut!

I think that models aren't accurate representation of SM,because in novels they generally wear helmets.(think of medieval art whose purpose is to make something more glorious,that same for that 40k art in Codexes and Rulebooks).

Oh man, I misread the graphic.

Warp 10 allows you to exist everywhere in the universe simultaneously.

My bad. But still, ST> IoM. Here's the link.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Warp_factor

Monster Rain wrote:Oh man, I misread the graphic.

Warp 10 allows you to exist everywhere in the universe simultaneously.

My bad. But still, ST> IoM. Here's the link.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Warp_factor

Dude nooooo
http://www.merzo.net/
check here in -2
Imperail ship is like this big.

Monster Rain wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Nice try,trekkie IOM is technologicaly superior to Borg and Federation.
Borg aren't god like.

How so?

It takes years to travel across the Galaxy for the IoM, requiring witchcraft and possible daemonic incursion. Star Trek ships, which are faster even when they aren't at Warp Speed, move considerably faster.

Maybe in FTL(only Borg and few other races,other just use that slow ST Warp drive).

More advanced energy generation,better medicine,robotics,weapon(vortex weaponry),superior materials and bio technology.

Let's see... ST Warp Drive, at Warp 10, takes you 132 Light Years in one Month. Without the need for Voodoo.

Energy Generation? Romulans have a black hole powering every single one of their Warbirds so ST wins. Better medicine? In the IoM? You need to learn more about ST before you even try going down that road. There's way too much wrong with that statement for me to explain here. The other stuff just seems tacked on.

And again, matter doesn't penetrate deflector shields so the IoM can shoot missiles at the Borg all day, it won't bother them.

Are you [Mod edit to remove an unpleasant word]?
Read the comment above for FTL speeds.
If those Romulan black hole generators are so awesome why haven they conquered ST galaxy.
Adamantium is clearly stronger than ST materials.
Deflector shields fail against measly megatons,how are they going to resist 40k firepower?


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Monster Rain wrote:Oh man, I misread the graphic.

Warp 10 allows you to exist everywhere in the universe simultaneously.

My bad. But still, ST> IoM. Here's the link.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Warp_factor

That episode isn't cannon,that's official!

Firstly, the question about borg assimilation isn't really valid. Who care who or what borg can ssimilate, what has been clearly shown is that borg can and do assimilate humans and human technology with great rapidity and ease.

Secondly, whether or not borg can adapt to the directed energy weapons of the IoM doesn't matter, IoM has enough guns to really screw up their day.

Thirdly, teleporters, 40K adherents have absolutely no proof that void shields would stop borg teleporters, in the same way that borg adherents have no proof that they would be able to ignore them. We have a simple statement. Borg may teleport through shields. They have never shown any of the common limitations displayed by SF and I believe in one (early) episode it was stated that they didn't function in the same a federation teleporters did.

Since, for the purpose of the discussion we accept the abilities of each others 'races' this statement holds true in both universes. Ergo Borg, on the balance of probabilities, can teleport through void shields.

Fourthly, space combat, if a borg cube goes up against a IoM ship in head to head combat, sorry IoM wins. While I don't think that the cube has sufficent enough mass to detonate a direct effect warhead, it's going to have a lot of holes in it.

Lastly, Ivan please calm down, calling one side of an internet discussion a bunch of spankers I'm sure has already garnered complaints against you, and very possibly the exact same thing could be said of the 40K side.

Cheers

Andrew

Asherian Command wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes, a Lance strike blows up the first cube but then that's it. It'll be the first and last cube to go that way. Missiles, torpedoes and mass drivers will still work but a cube can take 78% structural damage and keep fighting.

Oh really? So if one is blown up an no message could of been sent? Then WHAT THE ! They are not freaking gods! One lance goes through them destorying everything. Leaving nothing behind! And thats from a :beep: Retrubition class the most ordinary ship in the imperium! Just imagine a Emperor Class ship. Its lances = instant win. Because they go through planets! But they are never used like that. You guys also forget the Apocalypse and the Armaggeddon class imperial ships! Those things don't give a damn what your ship has. Its weapons just pierce through everything. And not only that but they would ram your ass with their bloody hulls. As their ship armor is made out of adamantium! So why do you guys believe that the borg has made some super powerful weapon? where they defeated in Star Trek? Yes they were. Pretty easily infact. So why all the hate?
I use to think Star Trek had the best ships for the longest time.... But then I saw the imperail ships and was like ":beep: thats alot of firepower. Even a Borg ship would not stand up to a lance!"

Monster Rain wrote:

IvanTih wrote:Nice try,trekkie IOM is technologicaly superior to Borg and Federation.
Borg aren't god like.

How so?

It takes years to travel across the Galaxy for the IoM, requiring witchcraft and possible daemonic incursion. Star Trek ships, which are faster even when they aren't at Warp Speed, move considerably faster.

Well probably because the Imperail ships are huge! And they have more mass! Cobras are the size of startrek ships (and a little larger) and they are pretty damn fast!

What? Lances do not go through planets. One lance cannot even take out an escort size vessel. A Standard issue borg cube is 28 square km. They're pretty tough. Plus they can have shields and armour.

AndrewC wrote:Firstly, the question about borg assimilation isn't really valid. Who care who or what borg can ssimilate, what has been clearly shown is that borg can and do assimilate humans and human technology with great rapidity and ease.

Secondly, whether or not borg can adapt to the directed energy weapons of the IoM doesn't matter, IoM has enough guns to really screw up their day.

Thirdly, teleporters, 40K adherents have absolutely no proof that void shields would stop borg teleporters, in the same way that borg adherents have no proof that they would be able to ignore them. We have a simple statement. Borg may teleport through shields. They have never shown any of the common limitations displayed by SF and I believe in one (early) episode it was stated that they didn't function in the same a federation teleporters did.

Since, for the purpose of the discussion we accept the abilities of each others 'races' this statement holds true in both universes. Ergo Borg, on the balance of probabilities, can teleport through void shields.

Fourthly, space combat, if a borg cube goes up against a IoM ship in head to head combat, sorry IoM wins. While I don't think that the cube has sufficent enough mass to detonate a direct effect warhead, it's going to have a lot of holes in it.

Lastly, Ivan please calm down, calling one side of an internet discussion a bunch of spankers I'm sure has already garnered complaints against you, and very possibly the exact same thing could be said of the 40K side.

Cheers

Andrew

I get angered when someone says that megaton level ships can go against teraton firepower ships.
Naval shoutguns will make fine red podwer of the Borg droness plus the ratings which are often recuited from hives.

IvanTih wrote:Are you slowed?

I'm not the one making personal attacks over something this silly, so no.

Go calm down for a bit.

IvanTih wrote:

AndrewC wrote:Firstly, the question about borg assimilation isn't really valid. Who care who or what borg can ssimilate, what has been clearly shown is that borg can and do assimilate humans and human technology with great rapidity and ease.

Secondly, whether or not borg can adapt to the directed energy weapons of the IoM doesn't matter, IoM has enough guns to really screw up their day.

Thirdly, teleporters, 40K adherents have absolutely no proof that void shields would stop borg teleporters, in the same way that borg adherents have no proof that they would be able to ignore them. We have a simple statement. Borg may teleport through shields. They have never shown any of the common limitations displayed by SF and I believe in one (early) episode it was stated that they didn't function in the same a federation teleporters did.

Since, for the purpose of the discussion we accept the abilities of each others 'races' this statement holds true in both universes. Ergo Borg, on the balance of probabilities, can teleport through void shields.

Fourthly, space combat, if a borg cube goes up against a IoM ship in head to head combat, sorry IoM wins. While I don't think that the cube has sufficent enough mass to detonate a direct effect warhead, it's going to have a lot of holes in it.

Lastly, Ivan please calm down, calling one side of an internet discussion a bunch of spankers I'm sure has already garnered complaints against you, and very possibly the exact same thing could be said of the 40K side.

Cheers

Andrew

I get angered when someone says that megaton level ships can go against teraton firepower ships.
Naval shoutguns will make fine red podwer of the Borg droness plus the ratings which are often recuited from hives.

You can get as mad as you want, Clarence.

It still won't change the fact that matter based weapons don't penetrate deflector shields.