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So, I see some people have seen the book.
Hit me, if you would: What is the story with Animosity? How much control am I going to have over my dudes?

Jesus Christ I can't believe they still have animosity? It's like GW hates orcs.

As for the whole luxury codex bs, I just see it as GW not wanting my money. Which is fine, there are plenty of other companies that want it.

It's obvious that anyone who doesn't like losing the game because of completely random bullgak like animosity is a WAAC scumbag who does not deserve to be hit in the face with a deluxe hardcover army book, let alone touch someone who has seen the new plastic orcs up close.

Da Boss wrote:So, I see some people have seen the book.
Hit me, if you would: What is the story with Animosity? How much control am I going to have over my dudes?

More, especially if you have special characters or Black Orcs (Note: Going off Bram's words). Animosity is now only 1's again, instead of 1's and 6's. Black Orcs still negate the same way, meaning now you will never "fail" animosity when a BOrc's leading the unit.

If you roll a one, you roll on the table. A Six is essentially a "worsened" version of 7th's six result, leading to you moving forward towards the nearest visible enemy and stopping 1" away if you would hit (from there you can still charge, but this means no more "Can only hold or flee" result). A 2-5 is pretty much the same as this edition's 1. A one, however, is a sight worse, with you now causing two animosity-suffering units to sit still beating each-other.

My ogres want choppas.

:( I am not a happy bunny about that one.

The 1-1 result especially could freeze an entire battle line! Mutter mutter.
I could maybe deal with it, if it stopped happening once the enemy was within 8".
I dunno. That's killed a lot of my enthusiasm for this release. It's a really dumb rule. (And yes, before anyone says it, I know it's been an Orc rule forever. It's also been a dumb rule forever.)
Thanks Minsc.

Animosity is easy to control now, however, the results can be pretty decent i guess.
So its still a gamble, but no longer annoying to control.
Also, be aware that the "Quell Animosity" rule that Borcs have is now somewhat worse for you, as they hurt your unit pretty badly lol.





Agnosto: With the trend of large monsters, OK will more than likely get more than a choppa
Chances are they will have a pretty large beast, but thats all im going to say for now.

For fluff reasons, I didn't want to have to take lots of Black Orc heroes. Certainly not in Goblin units.
Oh well. Nothing to be done about it. I suspected it would follow 8th's trend of MOAR RANDOM, MOAR FUNNER and am slightly relieved that it's not much much worse than it is.

As a note, Gorbad and Azhag each seem to have buffs against Animosity. Gorbad adds his wound count to all units' rolls on the animosity chart (thus, if he's alive, no unit can suffer a 1 result). Azhag, meanwhile, makes you re-roll all failed rolls over an 18" area too (thus, the old BOrc rule). With just one of them, you could mitigate most Animosity issues in your army.

But yeah, new book doesn't look to be that favorable for Goblins. Slittaz aren't that well statlined, war machines can all misfire now, NG Shamans must use mushrooms... the one real advantage they gained is that their Magic Lore is pretty decent compared to the Orc one.

carmachu wrote:

dienekes96 wrote:I am thrilled it is in hardcover. Gets rid of the riffraff playing the game, and classes up the local gaming scene.

Maybe if you really wanted to class up the gaming scene, you should lose some weight, and take a shower and use deoteriant. Justa thought.

Son, I look like a cross between Ivan Drago and Hugh "muthaeffing" Jackman, and I smell like a unicorn fart. The rest of the gaming scene needs to man up to my high standards.

catharsix wrote:as for that big spider, all i can say is...

HO-LY SHIP... want very badly.

that thing is going to be my Tervigon. to heck with the conversion kits, super-expensive Russian models, and converting Carifexes. that thing was MADE to be spawning little gaunts. totally gonna pre-order that.

-C6

My thought exactly! Been thinking about how many Carnifex bits I'd need to get to make a convincing Tervigon.

Edit: And speaking of which, is the "super-expensive Russian model" even available anymore? I haven't seen one for sale for quite some time now from the one seller I knew of who offered one.

Valete,

JohnS

Indeed, you might as well replace the little goblin howdah with a big sign that says "Use me for Tyranids". It looks like a plethora of Nid bits. I'm pre-ordering one.

Im turning that spider into a Tyranid monstrous creature. Tyranofex and Tervigon yep yep

If you don't like the very idea of animosity then play a more orderly army. I know plenty of good players who are in no way waac or tfg that choose to take high leadership armies without any rules like animosity or frenzy because they just want to play an orderly army that they have full control over. Playing elves or dwarves because they are high leadership and do what you want them to do isn't waac, wanting orcs and gobbos to be as orderly as elves and dwarves is waac.

As a night gobbo player the rumors of 2 point gobbos with spears, improved animosity, and our own magic lore have me looking forward to the new book.

I am even happy about the prospect of malfunctioning spear chukas. That should bring the price down and make them even cheaper.

The new army list is crap. GW keeps taking out the tried tested units and abilities that we love and putting in random junk that will surprise your opponent once and then be basically useless. I guess it sells more miniatures.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

schadenfreude wrote:As a night gobbo player the rumors of 2 point gobbos with spears, improved animosity, and our own magic lore have me looking forward to the new book.

I am even happy about the prospect of malfunctioning spear chukas. That should bring the price down and make them even cheaper.

gobbos are 3 points with either light armor or shields in the new book
spear chukkas are 35 points, dont know if they malfunction or not

schadenfreude wrote:...wanting orcs and gobbos to be as orderly as elves and dwarves is waac.

Except that it's not. Please put down your label maker machine

You're forgetting that having an army that often doesn't do what you want to it do, turn after turn, game after game can actually be not at all fun to play. And if someone isn't having fun, then why would they want to continue playing that army. That doesn't make them waac either.

For the amount of bonuses gained and their crazy magic (possibility of S7 armour piercing orcs), i'd say that was worth the 1/36 chance of something really bad happening. I guess my point is: would you rather this new system or the old 1/6 chance of doing bugger all and 1/6 charging forward?

What an excellent pricing for hardcover AND FULL COLOR.

My beastmen army book is now $29 after the price raise a while ago.

8 dollars more, and I get a gakload more of durability, and full color? With minimally more weight? Sign me up!

Edit: Forgot to put in my obligatory negative comment on GW.

Just because you do a good, sane thing once in a while doesn't make up for being an idiot all the time.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:...wanting orcs and gobbos to be as orderly as elves and dwarves is waac.

Except that it's not. Please put down your label maker machine

You're forgetting that having an army that often doesn't do what you want to it do, turn after turn, game after game can actually be not at all fun to play. And if someone isn't having fun, then why would they want to continue playing that army. That doesn't make them waac either.

Saying something is not fun to play is a matter of subjective opinion. There are a dozen other armies a player can choose to play instead of orcs and goblins that always do what you want it to do. If having an army do what you want it to do is your top priority why then did you choose to play the one army out of 15 armies that is most likely to have units not do what you want them to do? Many Orc players enjoy the challenge of playing an army where many of the units are not reliable, so if orcs loose their animosity rule what army is left for players that want the challenge of running a powerful but difficult to control army?

I never said it's waac to want an army that players have full control over all their units, I said it's a legitimate matter of player preference. I know DE players who won't take witches because they don't like frenzy, or many other players who don't take units with stupidity for the same reason. In every case where a unit has a special rule that makes takes some control away from the player the unit is cheaper and/or more powerful as a trade off. It's totally ok to want full control over your army, it's just not ok to demand that you have your cake and eat it too.

Orcs and Dwarves are very close in stat lines, but orcs are much cheaper because of lower leadership and animosity. An army can not have good stats, good leadership, and an inexpensive cost. Something has to give, and in the case of orcs & goblins that something is order within the army.

If you're demanding orcs without animosity for the same price as orcs with animosity then you're demanding GW to set the codex creep of WHFB into overdrive which comes off to me as waac.

If you're demanding orcs loose animosity for an increased point cost then you're demanding GW just turns orcs into a greenskin version of dwarves. Most orc players would not like that. If you want an army as tough as orcs, but reliable as dwarves then just play a dwarf army. The major complaint I'm hearing in this debate is "My orcs are acting like orcs."

I like Orcs because of the models and background, and the fact that they can play in every phase of the game (like Empire). The rules are a secondary concern for me. My problem with Animosity is the squabble result itself, which I feel is only fluffy when the enemy is far away- all fluff for Orcs shows them getting their act together once the enemy is in charge range. This is mostly irrelevant though, because Animosity as it stands is just unfun. I would be happy with an Animosity rule that inflicted damage on the unit over a rule that causes it to stop movng. Losing manouver in a game of Warhammer is intensely frustrating, especially when you didn't DO anything to lose it, an your opponent didn't do anything to take it away.
Gorbad seems like he'll be a good choice for me, then.

I am tired of people telling me I don't like O&G because I don't like Animosity though. I don't understand the mindset.

Kroothawk wrote:
Creating more imaginative games for those who can afford the higher price, leaving those behind who can't afford it (or never start it because of the even higher entry hurdle). But to be honest, GW has never been concerned about losing customers, they were content if the remaining customers roughly paid the same money for less products. Lucky are those veterans who already own such big armies (gathered over years) and now only have to buy the army book and maybe a few new shineys.

To you, Kan, and everyone else spewing this crap:
Can't afford and won't buy are two entirely different beasts. Stop confusing the two or making it out that people who won't pay are indigent somehow. Better yet, pick up some economics book and learn about how price perception works.

Here's a good primer. http://www.4hb.com/0101npsdfdsffds.html

Kroothawk wrote:On the army book:

Looking at that page design I do hope the rest of the book is a bit more 2011 and less past century Because that layout lets be honest, does not need colors Looks more like a printable pdf than a harback with all the sweet stuff... Well maybe it was just a bad page example...

NAVARRO wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:On the army book:

Looking at that page design I do hope the rest of the book is a bit more 2011 and less past century Because that layout lets be honest, does not need colors Looks more like a printable pdf than a harback with all the sweet stuff... Well maybe it was just a bad page example...

It reminds me of the layout in IA8. Which is kinda nice actually.

I don't play WH Fantasy, but those Savage Orks would go great in my D&D campaign. Give them some tribal tatoos or war paint and viola!

dienekes96 wrote:

carmachu wrote:

dienekes96 wrote:I am thrilled it is in hardcover. Gets rid of the riffraff playing the game, and classes up the local gaming scene.

Maybe if you really wanted to class up the gaming scene, you should lose some weight, and take a shower and use deoteriant. Justa thought.

Son, I look like a cross between Ivan Drago and Hugh "muthaeffing" Jackman, and I smell like a unicorn fart. The rest of the gaming scene needs to man up to my high standards.

Every gamer, facebook user and craigslist critter behind the computer says that that......Cant you at least lie originally?

Been keeping up on Warseer for the OnG rumors (Look mostly on the last six pages of the link), and, well, I'm not amused on a lot of things.

Only magic item really worth its cost is the arcane magic item requiring a SOrc character, and even then it's mostly only worth it insofar as giving +1 to Ward Saves for a unit of 30+ models is pretty decent (Essentially becomes a 1.6pt / model upgrade). The loss of stuff like the Tricksy Trinket, Sneaky Skewer, and so on is down-right depressing, and most of the other magical options bounce between "laughable for a fun game" and "why would I pay 100pts for that?" I guess it's a good thing that the only OnG magic items I used already were:

Spirit Totem (which is now going to be dropped :( I need to now buy a Caddy Shaman or three)

Sneaky Skewer (It was amazing for its price, my NG Warboss' are going naked now it seems)

Martog's Best Basha (I doubt I need to explain this choice)

Warboss Umm's Best Boss 'At (Since it gave a 5+ Ward to a non-HA model)

If I hadn't shifted out from OnG stuff to common with the new edition, this hit would have been particularly bad.

Snotlings are more expensive special now... but get two wounds and a S2 no-save shooting attack! Yeah, I still am not predicting much people to use them, especially since they can panic Gobbos now.

Animosity, looking back on it, is overall "better". I missed this part for 2-5, but you can still charge (albeit the nearest enemy) if you roll it on the chart. So, in other words, only a One, One will really grind you to a halt, but it will grind you to a halt badly.

General consensus is that Spear Chukkas will misfire. Wouldn't be so bad if points went down, or Stone Throwers remained the same, but ST's being Rare and more expensive now, with SC's being the same price, I might as well just take Doom Divers now as they're really the best choice for everything but Monster Hunting (in which case ST's still have some worth).

NAVARRO wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:On the army book:
Snip

Looking at that page design I do hope the rest of the book is a bit more 2011 and less past century Because that layout lets be honest, does not need colors Looks more like a printable pdf than a harback with all the sweet stuff... Well maybe it was just a bad page example...

That's pretty much the whole book.
Most of the color art is old army book covers, and box covers.
I don't remember any new full page art. Lots of new page filler art though.

Very unhappy about the animosity rules. I agree that there should be a min distance to the opponent that negates it.

And Boar Boys are still too expensive. They dropped a couple points, but with animosity, they are not worth it.

Oh, okay. So with Animosity now, most of the time, you can still charge. That's alright then. I retract my previous whinge.

As to magic items and so on, I am hopeful that with Animosity having less impact, we will need them less.

skrulnik wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:On the army book:
Snip

Looking at that page design I do hope the rest of the book is a bit more 2011 and less past century Because that layout lets be honest, does not need colors Looks more like a printable pdf than a harback with all the sweet stuff... Well maybe it was just a bad page example...

That's pretty much the whole book.
Most of the color art is old army book covers, and box covers.
I don't remember any new full page art. Lots of new page filler art though.
.

Well I'm very sorry to hear that... no point in being full color and neither hardback then... Just another camouflaged price hike.

Da Boss wrote:Oh, okay. So with Animosity now, most of the time, you can still charge. That's alright then. I retract my previous whinge.

As do I. The only real "killer" now is the 1, 1 result, which can theoretically grab two units into inactivity in one go.

Being able to charge is a major boost, as the main problem with being unable to do anything was pretty much always "THEY'RE RIGHT THERE, ONE INCH AWAY, BACK TURNED! WHY WON'T THEY CHARGE THEM?!"

Da Boss wrote:As to magic items and so on, I am hopeful that with Animosity having less impact, we will need them less.

There's really only a few things OnG magic items can do:

Boost one unit of Savage Orcs' Ward Save (Arcane).

Boost one character either in very specific circumstances (Versus Dwarves), or at the cost of actually being able to hit anything (Roll a D6, add it to strength and attacks. Half the roll, subtract that from Weapon Skill. Oh, and it costs all a Lord's magic equipment) (Weapons).

Kill one low leadership monster or infantry a turn, with a Lord (Enchanted Item, costs 3/4 a lord's allotment, is an auto-hit Skull Wand move). Since unmodified leadership on a model in a unit is now the highest leadership present in the unit before Generals' Heroic Presence, yeah...

+D3 toughness and Impact Hits on a Lord (Full Lord's points) (Armor).

Give a single unit D6 Magic Resistance and allow no magic items to work against the bearer of the standard (BSB only, and twice the old price of the better Spirit Totem!), Poisoned Attacks for a Goblin BSB, or a NG BSB's unit stubborn and soft cover (Standards).

That's, from what others have revealed, all Orcs and Goblins can take.