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Kanluwen wrote:
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warboss wrote:i hate to change the subject from the thread fav of space apes but i'm more excited about the tidbit on the "what's new" article about new versions of both the Inquisitors Rex and Lok from previous books. if they follow their normal method of releasing an update pdf, it'll effectively make the characters usable by those without the books without having to resort to piracy.

I find it more obnoxious that the Psycannon Razorback isn't being included in the book.

don't they get the option of TL-assault cannons on their razorbacks in the final version? if they do, you *effectively* get a forgeworld psycannon version albeit less elegantly than if they had just listed it as an option. i won't see the preview dex until tomorrow (assuming my FLGS got their preview in) so don't know for sure personally.

RandyMcStab wrote:Isn't Jokaero getting models one of the signs of the apocalypse?

Indeed. The only thing anyone can ascertain from this thread is that some people take this game far, far too seriously.

Yes, the problem is not so much that it isn't 40k fluffy, it's that it isn't Inquisition fluffy. Using them to build weapons is one thing, but having them on the field for all to see? Not seeing it. If anything the TAU should have them.

Nagashek wrote: If anything the TAU should have them.

They could throw a tea party for the Squats....

Kanluwen wrote:
I find it more obnoxious that the Psycannon Razorback isn't being included in the book.

Sure it is: psybolt ammo with assault cannons.

Looks modelled well, although I question their ability to spawn heavy weapons I thought that was an obliterator thing.

Captain Fantastic wrote:Looks modelled well, although I question their ability to spawn heavy weapon

They don't "spawn heavy weapons", they use the equivalent from an array of Digital Weapons.

yakface wrote:I think you people are nuts... This is a fantastic model and a great nod back to Rogue Trader era.

As for 'Grey Knights' using Jokaero, you have to remember that this book allows Grey Knights to include Mallues, Hereticus AND Xenos inquisitors...it represents the fact that even a Xenos-Inquisitor can summon the might of the Grey Knights if need be. I'm sure the Grey Knights are none too happy about fighting alongside Xenos-scum, but breaking the commands of an Inquisitor is also a very serious breach of protocol.

And as for the Rogue Trader era 'fluff' on the Jokaero, why would that apply any more than the fluff that Genestealers are just some species from Ymgarl and not a Tyranid offshoot? The fact is, GW (as is their right) constantly rewrites or reinterprets the fluff as needed.

Lexicanum 40k wrote:The Jokaero are an alien race, ape-like in appearance. No one has ever concluded whether they are an intelligent race. They are certainly capable of tremendous technological and logical feats, yet they have no language, culture or motivation higher than survival.(...)
It is impossible to argue or reason with a Jokaero, and even giving them what they want is difficult, since they are incapable of communicating. (...)
Jokaero tend to build only things which meet their own immediate needs. Attempts to control the Jokaero and force them to construct technology have met with failure as they build things with which to escape from their captors.

The point is that Jokaeros are fundamentally uncontrollable. So the miniature is a nod to Rogue Trader days, the new fluff is a kick in the nuts of Rogue Trader days.
Just imlying that Grey Knights and Inquisition are so awesome that they can twist existing fluff by 180 degrees with a snap is showing no respect for the 40k universe.
Even if Mat would send Draigo back in time to kick the Old Ones forcing them to alter the Jokaero race concept. But obviously, Mat doesn't think it's necessary to even mention an explanation, probably because he is not aware of the fluff.

yakface wrote:Why would that have been better? All the codexes in the last few years have been about providing open army lists that allow players to theme their forces as they see fit. So if someone wants to play a puritanical Grey Knights force, they totally can with the book. Or if they want to play a Grey Knights force that is being commanded by a Xenos Inquisitor (or Hereticus Inquisitor), they can do that too.

Xeno-hunter/hater armies are okay, Xeno-themed Xeno-hunter/hater armies are nonsense and not needed.

Kroothawk wrote:The point is that Jokaeros WERE fundamentally uncontrollable. So the miniature is a nod to Rogue Trader days, the new fluff is a kick in the nuts of Rogue Trader days.

Fluff is malleable. That's kind of how it works. I think you'll find that most of RT is no longer valid as it has changed since it was published 20 to 30 years ago.

Just imlying that Grey Knights and Inquisition are so awesome that they can twist existing fluff by 180 degrees with a snap is showing no respect for the 40k universe.

Just as SW twisted fluff, IG twisted fluff, etc. Except none of them did, GW twisted the fluff to fit the needs of the evolving universe that they produce.

Even if Mat would send Draigo back in time to kick the Old Ones forcing them to alter the Jokaero race concept. But obviously, Mat doesn't think it's necessary to even mention an explanation, probably because he is not aware of the fluff.

Retcons often ignore previous fluff and don't explain, since that would break the fourth wall.

Kroothawk wrote:

yakface wrote:Why would that have been better? All the codexes in the last few years have been about providing open army lists that allow players to theme their forces as they see fit. So if someone wants to play a puritanical Grey Knights force, they totally can with the book. Or if they want to play a Grey Knights force that is being commanded by a Xenos Inquisitor (or Hereticus Inquisitor), they can do that too.

Xeno-hunter/hater armies are okay, Xeno-themed Xeno-hunter/hater armies are nonsense and not needed.

Why wouldn't Xeno-themed Xeno-Hunters be appropriate? There is even a Radical Xenos Inq character in the book who uses Xenos tech and I'm sure would have a squad of Necron Immortals standing right next to her if she could reliably control them.

It's the same as having Daemonhosts in a GK codex. Some Radicals use the weapons of the enemy against the enemy. This is long established in 40k fluff.

Additionally, in Valeria's fluff, it says that GKs maintain a neutral stance on questions of Radical behavior and disputes.

model is awesome - a must buy, have not got the codex but assume that the Jokareo is part of an Inquisitorial Retinue and not a "honourary" Grey Knight.

No issue for me in inclusion if its a codex that primary focuses on the Grey Knights and the people who call them in / work with them.............

just patiently waiting for an Amberley Vail model for the Xenos Inquisitor.......... if they can do D Eldar females justice they can sort this out...........

pretre wrote:
Why wouldn't Xeno-themed Xeno-Hunters be appropriate? There is even a Radical Xenos Inq character in the book who uses Xenos tech and I'm sure would have a squad of Necron Immortals standing right next to her if she could reliably control them.
It's the same as having Daemonhosts in a GK codex. Some Radicals use the weapons of the enemy against the enemy. This is long established in 40k fluff.

Additionally, in Valeria's fluff, it says that GKs maintain a neutral stance on questions of Radical behavior and disputes.

This is the problem. Jokaero are supposed to be as impossible to control as Immortals or anything else. Having a Jokaero unit without explaination is as ridiculous as having a unit of Necron Immortals or Tau Firewarriors as part of your retinue. Except that at least Tau could be convinced that it benefits the Greater Good to do so.

Unless you want to use the argument that it is less like using xeno, and more like using horses. Rough Rider inquisitors. But, you know, with space monkeys. So really no more or less xeno than using spacewolves. For... Space Wolves.

I think that the horse idea is right. The Inquisitor has obviously found a way to control them.

Kroothawk wrote:The point is that Jokaeros are fundamentally uncontrollable. So the miniature is a nod to Rogue Trader days, the new fluff is a kick in the nuts of Rogue Trader days.

Why is it that they *are* fundamentally uncontrollable? This is the part I don't understand.
People are holding onto this old fluff like it's sacred text from the Holy Scripture.

At the time that the RT book was written, mankind believed that the Jokaero were "fundementally uncontrollable." The operative word in that sentence is "believed."
Look at the text you quoted from Lexicanum:

No one has ever concluded whether they are an intelligent race. They are certainly capable of tremendous technological and logical feats, yet they have no language, culture or motivation higher than survival.

No one has ever concluded whether they're intelligent?
They make uber-nasty weapons in the shape of RINGS and are impossible to keep captive, because they build stuff to escape. I'm going to go on a line here and conclude that they are, indeed, intelligent.
The next line goes on to refer to their "tremendous technological and logical feats." Awesome. Sounds even more like intelligence to me.

yet they have no language, culture or motivation higher than survival

And how would the writer know that? If he's never communicated with one, how can he know their language, culture, motivations, intelligence levels, etc? If you're calling your dog, and he's 5 feet away, but he doesn't even look at you, does that mean he's suddenly gone deaf or does it mean he's ignoring your attempts at communication?
On that note, take a look at cats. Except when it suits them, they ignore us & don't bother to try to communicate. Why? Well, anyone who's ever had a cat knows it's because they believe they're better than us.

Why can't people accept that things change? Whereas nobody had communicated with the Jokaero up to that point, at the time of the writing of the RT book, times in the 41st Millennium have advanced.
Why can't someone have finally managed to communicate with one and passed that knowledge along?
Why can't the Jokaero have finally agreed, as a race, that we were worth speaking to and now don't mind associating with certain elements of humanity?
Why can't it be that we finally developed some technology that picks up the ultrasonic wavelengths that they use to comunicate?

Fluff is malleable. If advances with time.

If it didn't (warning: AD&D reference), then Raistlin would still be captive of Takhisis and King Azoun would have never died.
Fluff changes so that it can advance. Otherwise, it just becomes stagnant and disinteresting.

Eric
--Reading this back for typos, it strikes me that it could be read as containing smart-assery. That is not my intent. It should be read as friendly banter. Emphais friendly.--

MagickalMemories wrote:Why can't people accept that things change? Whereas nobody had communicated with the Jokaero up to that point, at the time of the writing of the RT book, times in the 41st Millennium have advanced.
Why can't someone have finally managed to communicate with one and passed that knowledge along?
Why can't the Jokaero have finally agreed, as a race, that we were worth speaking to and now don't mind associating with certain elements of humanity?
Why can't it be that we finally developed some technology that picks up the ultrasonic wavelengths that they use to comunicate?

Fluff is malleable. If advances with time.

If it didn't (warning: AD&D reference), then Raistlin would still be captive of Takhisis and King Azoun would have never died.
Fluff changes so that it can advance. Otherwise, it just becomes stagnant and disinteresting.

Well said. I, for one, am glad that fluff has advanced past Rainbow Warriors and Space Sharks*.


* Yes, I know they are technically still around...

That's crazy talk, Space Sharks and Rainbow Warriors are the best chapters. I mean if you can have Space Wolves, why not Space Sharks? They're like the wolves of the sea, like tuna are the chicken of the sea.

Kanluwen wrote:They missed the biggest opportunity by not including a Deathwatch list in the book.

'Aegis of the Imperium'--all three Inquisitorial Ordos, two of three Chambers Militant(Sisters players would've cried if they were tied with the Inquisition again)--and a 'uge friggin' book.


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warboss wrote:i hate to change the subject from the thread fav of space apes but i'm more excited about the tidbit on the "what's new" article about new versions of both the Inquisitors Rex and Lok from previous books. if they follow their normal method of releasing an update pdf, it'll effectively make the characters usable by those without the books without having to resort to piracy.

I find it more obnoxious that the Psycannon Razorback isn't being included in the book.

TL-Assault Cannon Razorback + Psybolt = Psycannon.

With reference to tea parties I just couldn't resist:

UltraPrime wrote:The librarian's a monkey!

LOL Discworld ftw

MagickalMemories wrote:Why can't it be that we finally developed some technology that picks up the ultrasonic wavelengths that they use to comunicate?

Fluff is malleable. If advances with time.

friendly.--

Pretty much agree with all of this - especailly about the cats!

Although I figure the Jokaero have bothered to build a comms device to communicate with the hairless primatives that keep annoying them. Perhaps an individual has consented to accompany a human -in the same way as Eldar are known to assist humanity - for its own reasons - perhaps it s a full commuity and no-one including the Inquisitor knows why......... nothing in the original fluff says they wouldn't jst that they are unpredictable and uncontrollable - does the new Codex say anything more /new about them?

Kanluwen wrote:They missed the biggest opportunity by not including a Deathwatch list in the book.

'Aegis of the Imperium'--all three Inquisitorial Ordos, two of three Chambers Militant(Sisters players would've cried if they were tied with the Inquisition again)--and a 'uge friggin' book.

Not all of us, although I guess I should be considered a "Sisters player in retirement" these days. I think it would be a much cooler way to handle things if GW was open to doing Codex releases that were either paired enemies (I.E. Space Wolves vs. Thousand Sons, or similar) or otherwise 'big books' that cover related factions. I think other companies do this and it makes for fun lists that can still be as flavorful as the current codices.

Plus, from at least my PoV, if I bought "Codex: Imperial Miscellany" to play my Sisters, I'd also look at that Adeptus Mechanicus list as something to consider, especially if I could trial a couple units in my SoB.


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still feel it makes more sense for them to be a limited thing, like 1 in an Inquisitor's retinue (if they still have the old-style fun retinues: I've heard they don't) than squads.

It's funny: many sued to refer to the Witch Hunters Codex as the 'freak show' due to the weird Inquisitorial bits, the penitent engine, Repentia, Arco-Flaggelants, etc. It sounds like the Grey Knights have usurped this title, as they can now cover 3 branches of the Inquisition, their pet xenos, Grey Knights on stilts, etc...

Kanluwen wrote:They missed the biggest opportunity by not including a Deathwatch list in the book.

How? They didn't include Sisters yet included Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors.

Silly me, I assumed the Dread Knight was going to be the silliet looking model released for Grey Knights...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:They missed the biggest opportunity by not including a Deathwatch list in the book.

How? They didn't include Sisters yet included Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors.

I think he's trying to say that DW have 'always' been associated with Ordo Xenos. Sisters were only really associated with Ordo H in C:WH.

I, for one, welcome my segregated future sister's codex.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
How? They didn't include Sisters yet included Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors.

You can put Warriors in power armor and give them bolters. Huzzah!

pretre wrote:I think he's trying to say that DW have 'always' been associated with Ordo Xenos. Sisters were only really associated with Ordo H in C:WH.

And the GK's have always been associated with the Ordo Malleus, and yet we have Hereticus and Xenos Inquisitors in their Codex. There's no more logic to that than there is in including Deathwatch Squads in a Grey Knight Codex.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

pretre wrote:I think he's trying to say that DW have 'always' been associated with Ordo Xenos. Sisters were only really associated with Ordo H in C:WH.

And the GK's have always been associated with the Ordo Malleus, and yet we have Hereticus and Xenos Inquisitors in their Codex. There's no more logic to that than there is in including Deathwatch Squads in a Grey Knight Codex.

It could have gone either way. I'm not sure that they are needed, but hey, whatever. I still haven't seen a real codex to read the fluff and see if GK are the sole arm of the Inquisition now. If they are, that'd make a lot more sense.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

pretre wrote:I think he's trying to say that DW have 'always' been associated with Ordo Xenos. Sisters were only really associated with Ordo H in C:WH.

And the GK's have always been associated with the Ordo Malleus, and yet we have Hereticus and Xenos Inquisitors in their Codex. There's no more logic to that than there is in including Deathwatch Squads in a Grey Knight Codex.

Which is why I said they missed out on instead of just doing a "Grey Knight" codex, they could have done it as an Inquisition and the associated Chambers Militant book.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:With reference to tea parties I just couldn't resist:

For the "Flight of the Conchords" fans:


"Ain't no party like my Nanna's tea party! Hey! Ho!"


Eric

Kanluwen wrote:Which is why I said they missed out on instead of just doing a "Grey Knight" codex, they could have done it as an Inquisition and the associated Chambers Militant book.

I think that once we see the full codex, we will find out there is only one Chamber Militant now.

For those of you looking for a more nuanced and refined (and far less Ward-y) take on the Grey Knights and the Ordo Malleus in general, then this is always an option.

Kanluwen wrote:Which is why I said they missed out on instead of just doing a "Grey Knight" codex, they could have done it as an Inquisition and the associated Chambers Militant book.

Ah. Ok. I get it now.

In that case, yes, it would have been better to get an all-inclusive Inquisition Codex. Even the 'Wave' releases are pretty obvious then - Wave 1, GKs (Special Chars, Termies, Power Armour, Dreadknight. Wave 2, Sisters (Special Chars, Sisters Box, Serephim Box, plastic Exorcist). Wave 3, Deathwatch (Special Chars, DW Termies, DW Power Armour, [something else]).