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Dashofpepper wrote:As a general request, if anyone wishes to discuss rules, could you go to YMDC? I'm quite familiar with the rules, the tactics I've posted follow accordingly, I can assure everyone that nothing I've posted breaks any of them, but rather follows them to the letter - and I would much rather this thread discuss the tactical value or variations of what I've written, or some Q&A about strategy than be muddled down having to explain rules to people.

It's fair enough for people to want to point out where they think rules in the tactica are incorrect. Extended debate should certainly take place elsewhere, though.


On that note, I feel I should point out that your Tank Shock strategy example is incorrect. Tank Shock only moves models that would actually wind up underneath the vehicle. You can't move other models in the unit to make way for them. So your Raider skimming across the front of the unit would force those Orks under the raider to move forwards or sideways (as there is no room for them to go anywhere else).... not force the whole unit to shuffle backwards.

The general theme of targeting / assaulting stuff is generally kill what can kill you easiest.

Now would you rather assault or shoot a marine army that has a thunderfire cannon?

I would rather assault the thunderfire cannon and shut down the shooting unless it is not in a bolstered ruins. I usually put on the negative ld in conjunction to the shock prows.

Its a good article and a must read for DE novices. For vets, its also a useful tool in relearning an army getting a new book. My only difference is I use razor flails because I like the reroll on both hits and wounds as S3 against T4 doesnt wound much.

so assuming you get the first turn, but your opponent smartly deploys at the back of his deployment zone some 30" away from your units so you will not get a first turn charge.

You move forward 12" and shoot off your alpha strike and prepare for his counter fire. Any suggestions on what to take down, avoid, how to position your models to keep some of them alive. Even after alpha striking some armies can take down a lot of cardboard boxes.

Dashofpepper wrote:It depends on how much shooting is in the daemon army, what kind of DE army you're playing....and if you reserve, you *also* come in piecemeal, with 3/4 of the daemon army on the table ready to engage your 1/2.

To a certain extent, perhaps. It does depend on the build, but also yours. I use 6 Venoms standard; goes a long way towards any infantry-based army like Daemons. Basically, if they are assault-based, I start on the table and play keep away, focusing on anything fast like Fiends and Screamers that can affect vehicles, using assault only on soft, support targets. If they are shooty, I reserve and make them deploy so that I can pick the weakest spot to exploit or make him commit to me. Even in their ultra-shootiest, Daemons just cannot pump out the firepower to really cripple a mech army and I can position myself well enough always have cover saves against anything scary. From there, I can outrange and assault soft targets like Heralds.

Anyway, I've played several different daemon players, including one that's one of the top 2-3 players in the area, and they have pretty much all the flavors of effective daemons represented (primarily Tzeentch shooting and Fiend swarm) and neither has presented a challenge. Last couple games, they have been tabled to a man or there was one lone daemon cowering in a corner to try to avoid the tabling, while not losing more than 25% of my army. It's not intended as a "brag;" I just don't see daemons as a threat. Of course, I learned how to beat them by playing orks for a year, so that might have something to do with it that you can understand.

I've had a game teamed up with some SW against CSM and Necrons and I ran into a problem...

How do you fare against 20 man troop necrons that are warped out of combat by the monolith, cause I couldn't win the close combat and then I'm shot to death or almost...

Venoms would be my guess. Volumes of poisoned shooting would really hurt them...

Maximillian wrote:I've had a game teamed up with some SW against CSM and Necrons and I ran into a problem...

How do you fare against 20 man troop necrons that are warped out of combat by the monolith, cause I couldn't win the close combat and then I'm shot to death or almost...

I suppose that depends on the list you're running....

Maximillian wrote:I've had a game teamed up with some SW against CSM and Necrons and I ran into a problem...

How do you fare against 20 man troop necrons that are warped out of combat by the monolith, cause I couldn't win the close combat and then I'm shot to death or almost...

If you are running a shooty list then you should have enough Splinter Cannon and Darklight fire (you won't hurt the Monolith with them so you might as well) to remove any of the more dangerous stuff like Destroyers pretty quickly, and then slowly chew through the Warriors with shooting.

If its an assault based list then you hit the Warriors with a couple of units of Wyches at once (or Incubi if your feeling nasty), win by a few then watch them fail morale and you just about automatically sweep them (which removes the unit with no chance of WWB).

Powerguy wrote: @ ThePhish. How are you deploying over 24" from the center of the board? With a tournament standard 6' x 4' this is impossible.

Technically speaking... over 24" from the center is easily done. My comment was however not very clearly written after re-reading it and it doesn't make much sense. The point of it was to deploy as far away as possible.

Powerguy wrote: If everything is fast then you might be able to manage to dodge a single Portal by moving into the corners, but to be competitive you need two anyway. 2 Portals deployed on the center line (or just past it if you aren't too worried about being blocked) spaced within assault range of fast units and a bit over 24" from the short edges means that unless your opponent can squeeze his entire army into the back few inches of each corner he is going to get by things T2.

This is for an army going 2nd against a wwp army.
To defend against the portals, don't move, but deploy into 1 corner as much as possible, everything. The portals are great and wonderful for getting fast ground units across the board in a hurry. The thing they also do is bottleneck anything coming out of it since the army is emerging from 3"ø holes rather than an entire board edge. Every unit that comes out of it is in the way of every other unit that comes behind it when moving directly at the enemy. If all of the enemy is in 1 direction, such as a corner, it adds more distance that has to be traveled by the footsloggers emerging from the portal as they have to go around each other. In addition, most of the units emerging from a portal are larger than 10 models to make them more durable, therefore, they take up space.

I understand there will most likely be 2 portals. The above defense for it still works, b/c anything emerging from the 2nd portal, further away from your army in the corner, still has to go around everything else that came from the first portal. If they opt to not deploy the 2nd portal to move it into a better location, then nothing is coming out of it unitl turn 3.

Granted, it's not fool proof, nothing ever is. It limits what can make it into cc turn 1, which is what wwp armies are built for, and they don't hold up well to being shot, which is what's going to happen to everything that couldn't make it into cc.

Dash-

You got me thinking about the music I listen to before I play DE. I never realized it utill I started thinking about it but I will always listen to "Instruments of Destruction" by N.G.R and "Hunger" by Spectre General. these are off of the "Transformers - the Movie" Soundtrack. The Cartoon form the Late 80's.

The Lyrics are so DE.

@Dash
Your best advice here is the psychological one. Always play your opponent. Very good advice indeed...
I also love the examples you brought how to irritate your opponent.

It is not only what you are doing, it is about how you do it. Being an actor helps a lot to understand this.

thanks for posting the guide dash. well done. i wont touch on your "Attitude" since its been done already. but overal nice guide.

question for you:

how would you trim the list to fit in an 1850 pt tourney? the 3 games i tried this list out in at 2k WTFPWNED, so i think im going to try your "darklight storm" in an upcoming tourney. i believe 1850 is the points. obviously the 3 ravagaers are go, and i like the blaster trueborn in venoms too much to really trim them.. so the question is: loose some warriors or the wychs?

DarthSpader wrote:thanks for posting the guide dash. well done. i wont touch on your "Attitude" since its been done already. but overal nice guide.

question for you:

how would you trim the list to fit in an 1850 pt tourney? the 3 games i tried this list out in at 2k WTFPWNED, so i think im going to try your "darklight storm" in an upcoming tourney. i believe 1850 is the points. obviously the 3 ravagaers are go, and i like the blaster trueborn in venoms too much to really trim them.. so the question is: loose some warriors or the wychs?

I dropped one trueborn from each squad and 1 wych from 3 of the wych squads. Working perfectly so far.

Very interesting article DoP, thanks for posting it.

Even though I don't play DE, it is still beneficial to me.

I have a question, in your section on Tank Shock, could you use that to make a unit out of cohesion? - And thus make it do nothing for a turn?

The Bringer wrote:

I have a question, in your section on Tank Shock, could you use that to make a unit out of cohesion? - And thus make it do nothing for a turn?

No. The owner of the unit moves them out of the way during the Tank Shock (although he doesn't really get to pick where they go), but they have to maintain coherency throughout.

DarthSpader wrote:thanks for posting the guide dash. well done. i wont touch on your "Attitude" since its been done already. but overal nice guide.

question for you:

how would you trim the list to fit in an 1850 pt tourney? the 3 games i tried this list out in at 2k WTFPWNED, so i think im going to try your "darklight storm" in an upcoming tourney. i believe 1850 is the points. obviously the 3 ravagaers are go, and i like the blaster trueborn in venoms too much to really trim them.. so the question is: loose some warriors or the wychs?

Darklight Storm doesn't have any wyches in it. =p Just warriors in venoms.

Dash, are you played vs new GK's already? If yes vs what kind, and with what result? shunt\purifiers+rifledreads\something with vindicare? (with wyches list)

DarknessEternal wrote:

The Bringer wrote:

I have a question, in your section on Tank Shock, could you use that to make a unit out of cohesion? - And thus make it do nothing for a turn?

No. The owner of the unit moves them out of the way during the Tank Shock (although he doesn't really get to pick where they go), but they have to maintain coherency throughout.

Wow that came off harsh... let me retype...

The Bold part is not true as far as i know. I'm pretty sure you can knock models out of coherency with tank shocks

I just looked it up

"These models must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance, leaving at least 1" between them and the vehicle and maintaining unit coherency"

Oh well...

penek wrote:Dash, are you played vs new GK's already? If yes vs what kind, and with what result? shunt\purifiers+rifledreads\something with vindicare? (with wyches list)

I've played against Rifledread spam (6 of them) paired with Coteaz and henchmen (7 psykers + 1 jokero), against Rifledread spam teamed up with GK strike squads, interceptors and purifiers and...paladins I think they were. The two wound terminators. I've also played against Henchmen backed up by Vindicare and Dreadknight, and a mixed razorback/chimera list.

I've managed to win them all, but a couple of them were by margins too close for comfort. I narrowly edged out a C&C game against Hulksmash by killing off his troop choices and hunkering down my remaining troop choice on my objective (that was in 5+ cover) and using my (two?) remaining vehicles to flat out in front of them to give them 4+ so they could go to ground for a 3+ cover save.

It is disconcerting that Hulksmash and other folks using an army for the first time can fight me to a near standstill the first time ever fielding their army.

In general, Vindicares haven't had any luck against me. One game had him miss, followed by a flickerfield save, followed by him being dead. Another game he died in the first turn. There's no point trying to shield-break a 5+ invulnerable save on an AV10 vehicle when you're probably going to penetrate it and 66% chance of it going through the flickerfield.

I'm enjoying learning about them, and have even assembled a couple variants of Henchmen/GK combo armies to play with on Vassal for giggles. Hopefully that's the closest I ever come to using Imperium wimps.

I state the following due to a few recent questions posted above: Models underneath or within 1" of the vehicle tank shocking must not only move by the shortest route BUT must also remain within unit coherency (unit coherancy is spelled out in the rules very concisely). The requirement to stay within unit coherency could result in the models moving a significant distance.

Also it is important to keep in mind that the procedure for Tank Shocking requires you to 1) aim the vehicle (pivot) in the direction you wish to tank shock 2) then declare the exact distance the vehicle will move 3) then move the vehicle straight ahead - no shimmying the vehicle to the side and no further pivots allowed during or after the move. Dash's pincer technique requires alot of finess.

wyomingfox wrote: Dash's pincer technique requires alot of finess.

Yes...it is an "advanced, advanced" tactic. I think I've managed to pull it off twice. Ever. I'm not good enough yet for that kind of range estimation and practice.

GK in general won't be a "huge" threat to DE. You may have to sweat it out with good players like Hulksmash, but that's a testament more to the player than the Codex. The average GK list will be battleforce-y, small in number, and short in range... easy pickings for the DE.

Dash,

Are Crucible of Maledictions really that good? They seem pretty 'meh' to me...

Kurce wrote:Dash,

Are Crucible of Maledictions really that good? They seem pretty 'meh' to me...

Too many people consider units in 40k as "Did it get its points back for me?"

Its not awesome, its not wonderful, it rarely does anything, but its worth having in your list because there are situations where it can be extremely potent.

Worst case scenario with Cruicible: No enemy psykers: you have a 20 point deficit.

Big deal.

Best case scenario: You kill hundreds of points worth your enemies most important units: you win the game.

DarknessEternal wrote:Worst case scenario with Cruicible: No enemy psykers: you have a 20 point deficit.

Big deal.

Best case scenario: You kill hundreds of points worth your enemies most important units: you win the game.

Best case scenario is that you lead your opponent around by the nose controlling both his deployment and target priority as his battle plans become fixated on a 20 point piece of wargear.

I'm happy to be the first general to report back from the battlefield with good news.

I've used all elements but the Mind-games presented in this guide and i've wiped the floor with the oponents presented before me. One of those conceded the game right before the Tabling (mostly because he was in a hurry).

I'm not a good actor and i don't think i'll be able to unnerve my oponent with the mind-games, i'll practice nonetheless. I refuse to doubt the usage of every single information found in the first post.

These stuff works, people, its not just a thread to improve one's ego (what some people might think).

I'll admit, i had my doubts at first, mostly because anyone can make sense about anything on the internet (specially on dakka), but this is not the case! This is competitive tactica! Playtested and approved from a guy that played 3 times before reading it and, now enlightened, already beaten to the point of tabling all the competitive players around.

Thanks Dash, and a special thank to all the people that made questions, commented and improved this wonderful thread.

schadenfreude wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Worst case scenario with Cruicible: No enemy psykers: you have a 20 point deficit.

Big deal.

Best case scenario: You kill hundreds of points worth your enemies most important units: you win the game.

Best case scenario is that you lead your opponent around by the nose controlling both his deployment and target priority as his battle plans become fixated on a 20 point piece of wargear.

do you spring for a TGL on 1 raider? 5 points that can really help your chances. And those 5 points might help even if the enemy has no psykers.

Tavitin wrote:I'm happy to be the first general to report back from the battlefield with good news.

I've used all elements but the Mind-games presented in this guide and i've wiped the floor with the oponents presented before me. One of those conceded the game right before the Tabling (mostly because he was in a hurry).

I'm not a good actor and i don't think i'll be able to unnerve my oponent with the mind-games, i'll practice nonetheless. I refuse to doubt the usage of every single information found in the first post.

These stuff works, people, its not just a thread to improve one's ego (what some people might think).

I'll admit, i had my doubts at first, mostly because anyone can make sense about anything on the internet (specially on dakka), but this is not the case! This is competitive tactica! Playtested and approved from a guy that played 3 times before reading it and, now enlightened, already beaten to the point of tabling all the competitive players around.

Thanks Dash, and a special thank to all the people that made questions, commented and improved this wonderful thread.

Bwah ha ha...yes my evil minions! Go forth and conquer the unworthy in the name of the Dark City.