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Exactly. It makes taking down tough vehicles much easier.

Interesting to read the eldar commentary. I agree that hornet, warp hunter are both excellent vehicles. It actually occurred to me to use the hornet with 2 pulse lasers rather than the usual weapon options. 125 pts, which is expensive for an AV11 vehicle, but it can outflank - I think it almost seems as good as a vendetta as a gunship.

That is an excellent point. My mind instantly went to the Scatter Lasers as they are such fantastic weapons, but pulse lasers are definitely a solid choice, too.

Plus the models are really cool looking. I may have to pick some up in addition to the Wraithseer.

Good read

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Interesting to read the eldar commentary. I agree that hornet, warp hunter are both excellent vehicles. It actually occurred to me to use the hornet with 2 pulse lasers rather than the usual weapon options. 125 pts, which is expensive for an AV11 vehicle, but it can outflank - I think it almost seems as good as a vendetta as a gunship.

You also get the advantage (compared to the Vendetta) of not being on a "I'M UP HERE SHOOT ME!" flyer stand.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Interesting to read the eldar commentary. I agree that hornet, warp hunter are both excellent vehicles. It actually occurred to me to use the hornet with 2 pulse lasers rather than the usual weapon options. 125 pts, which is expensive for an AV11 vehicle, but it can outflank - I think it almost seems as good as a vendetta as a gunship.

You also get the advantage (compared to the Vendetta) of not being on a "I'M UP HERE SHOOT ME!" flyer stand.

Trudat, I'd say that balances well against the lower AV and lack of EA/spirit stones.

Sounds like some pretty cool stuff.

As far as the cost of FW goes - if you can afford it great, if not, scratch build. I'd love to use lots of this stuff, but would be highly unlikely to ever buy the actual forgeworld models.

kestral wrote:As far as the cost of FW goes - if you can afford it great, if not, scratch build. I'd love to use lots of this stuff, but would be highly unlikely to ever buy the actual forgeworld models.

Except some people think that if you can't afford the actual models, you can't use the rules.

Sidstyler wrote:

kestral wrote:As far as the cost of FW goes - if you can afford it great, if not, scratch build. I'd love to use lots of this stuff, but would be highly unlikely to ever buy the actual forgeworld models.

Except some people think that if you can't afford the actual models, you can't use the rules.

Then those people can, pardon the expression, go hug a Grox. While I think that IA stuff should be allowed, there's no reason whatsoever to not let people scratchbuild it.

I've got nothing against scratch building, but put some effort into it. My brother has an entire Baneblade company made of papercraft Baneblades. No effort put into putting proper hatches, rivets, anything that'll make it stand out. Just straight from a template papercraft Baneblades.

He doesn't get to use them. If he put the effort in, I'd say have a blast.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:

kestral wrote:As far as the cost of FW goes - if you can afford it great, if not, scratch build. I'd love to use lots of this stuff, but would be highly unlikely to ever buy the actual forgeworld models.

Except some people think that if you can't afford the actual models, you can't use the rules.

Then those people can, pardon the expression, go hug a Grox. While I think that IA stuff should be allowed, there's no reason whatsoever to not let people scratchbuild it.

I think it's when people do a bad scratchbuild and expect it to be allowed is when this happens. I mean, would you let a cardboard box with guns attached to it be used as a Land Raider in a regular game?

People do cool scratchbuilds of FW stuff all the time which I'm sure nobody would mind allowing to be used as a stand in. Hell, I think in the P&M forums here alone we have at least 3-4 Titan/Thunderhawk projects that are ongoing that look awesome.

Is there a fluff reason why so much of the ork stuff gets invuln saves? Seems weirdly incongruous, there are very few invulns in the regular ork codex, but here they're given to a dred, an MC, and all the grot tanks! What's the deal?

Snarky wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:

kestral wrote:As far as the cost of FW goes - if you can afford it great, if not, scratch build. I'd love to use lots of this stuff, but would be highly unlikely to ever buy the actual forgeworld models.

Except some people think that if you can't afford the actual models, you can't use the rules.

Then those people can, pardon the expression, go hug a Grox. While I think that IA stuff should be allowed, there's no reason whatsoever to not let people scratchbuild it.

I think it's when people do a bad scratchbuild and expect it to be allowed is when this happens. I mean, would you let a cardboard box with guns attached to it be used as a Land Raider in a regular game?

People do cool scratchbuilds of FW stuff all the time which I'm sure nobody would mind allowing to be used as a stand in. Hell, I think in the P&M forums here alone we have at least 3-4 Titan/Thunderhawk projects that are ongoing that look awesome.

I think that's the "real" issue: How do you decide if a scratch-built model looks "good enough"? Maybe I should've added a caveat stating that I'm okay with scratchbuilding as long as you've put effort into it.

Final Verdict: A good tank that costs a boat load of points. I think it is completely fairly priced and in no way breaks the game.

So uh, if im playing dark eldar, or grey knights, how do i keep this thing from ripping my army a new donkey-cave with shooting?

Eidolon wrote:

Final Verdict: A good tank that costs a boat load of points. I think it is completely fairly priced and in no way breaks the game.

So uh, if im playing dark eldar, or grey knights, how do i keep this thing from ripping my army a new donkey-cave with shooting?

Psycannons, glancing with Psyflemen, Might of Titan, lascannons and Daemonhammers for Grey Knights. Haywire Grenades and a Chaos Dreadnought in a sock if you're Dark Eldar.

Awesome reviews, sir. I have all the eldar ones except the firestorm, as like you said it's way overcosted. The warphunter and wraithseer are sweet, just never played a game with them yet. They look pretty damn good just sitting on the shelf though.

Eidolon wrote:

Final Verdict: A good tank that costs a boat load of points. I think it is completely fairly priced and in no way breaks the game.

So uh, if im playing dark eldar, or grey knights, how do i keep this thing from ripping my army a new donkey-cave with shooting?

Apparently by "playing around it", which I still have no idea what that means. Kinda hard to just "play around" something that's not going to die and will keep shooting gak at you the entire game, most likely while camped on an objective.

Eidolon wrote:

Final Verdict: A good tank that costs a boat load of points. I think it is completely fairly priced and in no way breaks the game.

So uh, if im playing dark eldar, or grey knights, how do i keep this thing from ripping my army a new donkey-cave with shooting?

Heh, if the "leaked" rules cary over to 6ed all "Tanks" will have -1 on the damage table for beeing tanks. The Achilles will then have an inherent -2 to the damage table

You could take a DE Reaper and completely bypass the dark lance invulnerability.

For the cost of one achilles, hell you can take three! (Although in money terms, you can afford to buy two reapers for the cost of one achilles!)

Plus I'm sure you could kitbash one from a ravager quite easily, I mean, it's a raider with a giant dark lance...

Eidolon wrote:

Final Verdict: A good tank that costs a boat load of points. I think it is completely fairly priced and in no way breaks the game.

So uh, if im playing dark eldar, or grey knights, how do i keep this thing from ripping my army a new donkey-cave with shooting?

Or Tyranid. Realistically the only gun Nids have to hurt it costs 265 pts for 2 BS3 shots/turn.
Zoeys have an 18" range, and lose the Lance ability, Hive Guards can only Glance...

The Thunderfire Cannon scares me a lot.

rigeld2 wrote:

Eidolon wrote:

Final Verdict: A good tank that costs a boat load of points. I think it is completely fairly priced and in no way breaks the game.

So uh, if im playing dark eldar, or grey knights, how do i keep this thing from ripping my army a new donkey-cave with shooting?

Or Tyranid. Realistically the only gun Nids have to hurt it costs 265 pts for 2 BS3 shots/turn.
Zoeys have an 18" range, and lose the Lance ability, Hive Guards can only Glance...

The Thunderfire Cannon scares me a lot.

Zoeys are still S10 AP1 though, aren't they? So you have T-Fex and Zoanthropes, just like a normal Land Raider...

Speaking of ketchup, how do Dark Eldar players deal with BT LRCs with Blessed Hull? Surely those darned LRCs are the most broken things ever, right?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Zoeys are still S10 AP1 though, aren't they? So you have T-Fex and Zoanthropes, just like a normal Land Raider...

Speaking of ketchup, how do Dark Eldar players deal with BT LRCs with Blessed Hull? Surely those darned LRCs are the most broken things ever, right?

The Blessed Hulls cant be OP they are in an "codex"

Blessed Hull doesn't affect Monstrous Creatures, right? They still get the extra die? I think the Achilles strips that extra die. So you can't use the two DE MCs. Additionally, the Blessed Hull rule doesn't add a -1 penalty to Pens, meaning that Haywire grenades are significantly more useful.

However, you are welcome to go on equating the two and pretending that it's the location of the rules that makes the Achilles a design concept turd instead of the rules themselves.

Actually MC do get the 2d6 vs armor penetration. Page 30 of IAA Second Edition.

vhwolf wrote:Actually MC do get the 2d6 vs armor penetration. Page 30 of IAA Second Edition.

yep, the achilles isn't invulnerable to everything, it's just that the meta game is so geared towards killing transports that that the things that people can use to kill the achilles is probably seen as "uncompetitive".

theironjef wrote:Blessed Hull doesn't affect Monstrous Creatures, right? They still get the extra die? I think the Achilles strips that extra die. So you can't use the two DE MCs. Additionally, the Blessed Hull rule doesn't add a -1 penalty to Pens, meaning that Haywire grenades are significantly more useful.

However, you are welcome to go on equating the two and pretending that it's the location of the rules that makes the Achilles a design concept turd instead of the rules themselves.

DE things that deal with LRCs with Blessed Hull: Haywire Grenades, Heat Lance, MCs.

DE things that deal with LRAs: Haywire Grenades, MCs.

OH NO, NOT THE HEAT LANCES!

I'm not saying that the Achilles isn't a piece of turd, it is. It's just not as bad as people claim, but it's IA so it's the Devil by default.

DE things that deal with LRCs with Blessed Hull: Haywire Grenades, Heat Lance, MCs.

Heatlances vs. a Blessed Hull LRC have little chance of penetrating unless you get lucky. More likely you'll fall short of doing any damage...or simply glance it. Run the numbers. With out the assistance of the lance rule, Heat lances aren't that great.

Raiders with shock prows are always a good way to attempt to kill stuff like this. The advantage being that ramming ignores things like smoke launchers and cover. Sure you run the risk of destroying your transports...but sometimes you got to sacrifice them. Just make sure they are empty..LOL.

I know HLs aren't very good, but the notion of them penning an LRC isn't *too* far-fetched. It's also why I made the "ohnoez mah HLs" comment.

Since I have no idea, do people actually pay for shock prows in competitive lists? That could indeed be a way to kill an LRA.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I'm not saying that the Achilles isn't a piece of turd, it is. It's just not as bad as people claim, but it's IA so it's the Devil by default.

And this is where you and I part ways. I don't care where you found a poop! Put it down! It's a poop! Poop you found in the Museum of Metropolitan Art is exactly as fecal as poop found in an alley behind a bar! They are equally poop! Some of the IA stuff is neat, some of it is ill-conceived (seriously why does all the ork stuff have invuln saves, can someone who's read the book explain this), but the stuff that is ridiculously bad design should be vilified. Not because it's unfair or overpowered, but because it's bad design!

Poop! From a butt!

theironjef wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I'm not saying that the Achilles isn't a piece of turd, it is. It's just not as bad as people claim, but it's IA so it's the Devil by default.

And this is where you and I part ways. I don't care where you found a poop! Put it down! It's a poop! Poop you found in the Museum of Metropolitan Art is exactly as fecal as poop found in an alley behind a bar! They are equally poop! Some of the IA stuff is neat, some of it is ill-conceived (seriously why does all the ork stuff have invuln saves, can someone who's read the book explain this), but the stuff that is ridiculously bad design should be vilified. Not because it's unfair or overpowered, but because it's bad design!

Poop! From a butt!

Vilified because it is bad? Yes. Vilifying all of IA because some stuff is a bit silly? No. To continue with your poop analogy, should you shut down all pubs in the country because you found poop in an alley next to one, but still keep the Museum of Metropolitan Art open, despite finding a turd there?