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nomsheep wrote:

He made two immensely overpowered books.

Grey Knights is not "Immensly" overpowered. It may be the strongest book out right now, but we know that Space Wolves and IG give it a run for it's money all the time. Necrons are also starting to win a lot of tournaments. No excuse for Daemons.

had a hand the worst edition of 40k yet.

5th is significantly better than 4th, IMO. 5th is probably one of, if not the best 40k Edition so far.

Invalidated every SM army that wasn't um by saying that all others are 'wrong'

I don't see how they are invalidated at all.

SLaughtered sisters in 70% of his fluff.

A Gross over-exaggeration.

Retconned the crons (thats good or bad depending on who you are)

Which was a Studio decision I'm sure. putting it all on him, is silly.

but its not what he does its the zeal he seems to show in interviews explaining why x army should be god.

I would rather the Author of my codex, show enthusiasm for it, than get something like Cruddace did for Tyranids.

Kaldor wrote:
Personally I find most of the anger at Wards fluff is due to a chronic lack of imagination.

It's true, most people here lack the imagination required to make Ward's writing good.

Hell, it'd be like imagining the piece of gak in one's hand is a banana.

Good luck with that boundless imagination. Because as mentioned above, there's an English professor who uses Draigo as an example of what NOT to do when writing about heroes.

I suppose you could imagine him laying laurels on Ward's feet, though, with such a vast imagination.

Kaldor wrote:

Yodhrin wrote:The specific objection to the slaughter of the sisters is that it WAS done for a reason; a moronic one. The book spends page after page spanking over how the GK are the purest of the pure, more pure than anyone else, and that certain GK are even more pure than that.....and then describes them casually murdering sisters as if it's business as usual, then using their blood to perform a ritual that could be copy-pasted into the upcoming Chaos codex verbatim without seeming even slightly out of place. You cannot be both a pure servant of goodness and a murdering psychopath who bathes in the blood of virgins during a dark ritual at the same time.

lolwut?

It's 40K. Being a murdering psychopath who bathes in the blood of virgins is almost mandatory for being a servant of goodness.

Now while theres the whole 'incorruptible' thing with the GK, how do we know anything about the blood tide? It obeys none of the normal rules for Chaotic posession, and perhaps would have caused a physical corruption that the GK purity of spirit would have been unable to over-come?

Personally I find most of the anger at Wards fluff is due to a chronic lack of imagination.

Except that in previous fluff they never liked the fact that they had to kill loyal servants of the Imperium just for knowing of their existence. Let alone consider murdering Sororitas in cold blood just to get their blood for a ritual of all things. Nor would they even consider touching a daemon weapon let alone wielding one in battle. Now its slaughter this and bath in that, and daemon weapons for EVERYONE pretty much. Almost a complete 180 on their fluff. Not to mention they were always struggling to fight the daemons and none were a push over, they were just simply the best at it given their incorruptible nature and all the various wards like the Aegis they had. Now they walk all over daemons like they were swatting flies. Stern was a perfect example of the golden era of GK fluff IMO, he was a badass but still got messed with by Mcklatchen, and was constantly fighting an uphill battle against his own fate that Tzeentch was weaving. Now Draigo can just hop on over to Tzeentch's place, smack him in the back of the head and tell him to knock the crap off or else he will really have to hurt him.

And lack of imagination? That is some dangerous ground to tread given some of the foibles in Ward's work. No one is saying we shouldn't get new things, we are saying that they should at least have some semblance of internal consistence. Or at least be written in a way that looks like a grown up wrote it and not some 12 year old on the internet spanking to his self insert fanfiction.

Wish I could find the drawing someone made of the battered Soroitas, with a Mat Ward looking Astartes in the background, with the text "I know that GW has done some bad things over the years but I still love him.". Because it more or less sums up many people's feelings on the matter.

Atma01 wrote: Stern was a perfect example of the golden era of GK fluff IMO, he was a badass but still got messed with by Mcklatchen, and was constantly fighting an uphill battle against his own fate that Tzeentch was weaving. Now Draigo can just hop on over to Tzeentch's place, smack him in the back of the head and tell him to knock the crap off or else he will really have to hurt him.

Did you actually read the Grey Knight Codex? Stern is vastly more successful than Draigo. Stern has accomplished something; Draigo has accomplished nothing.

Draigo is the Imperium's Abaddon except he doesn't kill his own guys. He's just as big a failure though.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Atma01 wrote: Stern was a perfect example of the golden era of GK fluff IMO, he was a badass but still got messed with by Mcklatchen, and was constantly fighting an uphill battle against his own fate that Tzeentch was weaving. Now Draigo can just hop on over to Tzeentch's place, smack him in the back of the head and tell him to knock the crap off or else he will really have to hurt him.

Did you actually read the Grey Knight Codex? Stern is vastly more successful than Draigo. Stern has accomplished something; Draigo has accomplished nothing.

Draigo is the Imperium's Abaddon except he doesn't kill his own guys. He's just as big a failure though.

That would be relevant had I said he was no longer a badass, or that he hadn't accomplished anything, or that we were making any form of measurement about accomplishment. Instead what I said (or meant to say at least) was his fluff in 3rd Ed was a good example of a badass character that wasn't perfect in everything he did. Draigo is the most mary-sue character in 40K at the moment since the CTan changed. And to be entirely fair, the CTan were Gods so some mary-sueishness is acceptable.

Though I did fail to put 3rd Ed in my comment so I can see some confusion as to what I put forward. For that I am sorry, but I am referring to back when Stern was THE GK character. Not any of his fluff now. >.< My bad.

Kaldor wrote:
Even Draigo's fluff is cool, really.

It makes Chaos Gods weak, they are that powerful and still they can get rid off one Grey Knight in the Warp.
If Draigo can do that to them without consequences then the Emperor will kill them all easily when he ascend into the Warp as God of Mankind.


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Sasori wrote:

Invalidated every SM army that wasn't um by saying that all others are 'wrong'

I don't see how they are invalidated at all.

On that subject, if I want to write some fluff about my custom Space Marine Chapter I must have in mind that they want to be just like Ultramarine and that they recognize Calgar as their leader. When you say that everybody else want's to be Ultramarines then those army's lose their originality and personality because, according to fluff, they are all looking at Ultramarines as their idols. Then there is no question then why many people choose Black Templars or Space Wolves.

personally my 'favourite' Wardism is from the Space Marine codex, pg 36-37

Zanzag, an ork warboss, developed supercharged shootas that 'could punch through a Leman Russ' armour plating or even a Spave Marine's Power armour' (emphasis mine)

'Zanzag's supacharged shootaz might be able to penetrate power armour, but against the inviolable Tactical Dreadnought Armour they were near useless.'



It's like he's saying that a few Cm of ceramite in the SM power armour is better than several inches of the stuff in the LR's armour.

Anything that can puch holes in a Leman Russ would have no problem blowing holes in PA or even TDA, fluffwise.

Game rule wise there are things that are high str, low AP (the S 10, ap 4 Tfex cannon for example ... it can nuke a tank, but a SM will generally survive it), but it's still hilariously bad. The TDA's forcefields would help, no doubt. but if you can take out tanks with it, you can take out personal armour with it ...

Atma01 wrote: Draigo is the most mary-sue character in 40K

Not even a little bit. There is next to nothing written about Draigo's personality or character to know whether what he is like. All we know is that he has an iron determination, and that he is trapped in the warp and can no longer effect real change on the galaxy at large.

Brother Coa wrote:

Kaldor wrote:
Even Draigo's fluff is cool, really.

It makes Chaos Gods weak, they are that powerful and still they can get rid off one Grey Knight in the Warp.
If Draigo can do that to them without consequences then the Emperor will kill them all easily when he ascend into the Warp as God of Mankind.

Why would they want to get rid of him? He's trapped for their entertainment.

Kaldor wrote:

Atma01 wrote: Draigo is the most mary-sue character in 40K

Not even a little bit. There is next to nothing written about Draigo's personality or character to know whether what he is like. All we know is that he has an iron determination, and that he is trapped in the warp and can no longer effect real change on the galaxy at large.

>Implying that being a mary-sue has anything to do with personality and nothing to do with being the bestest at everything

No seriously what? He literally carved a name into the Demonic Primarch Mortation's heart. Not regular Primarch, ascended Demon form Primarch. LITERALLY. That is but ONE of the literal LIST of stupidly overpowered things Draigo has done. This was after the old fluff where like 100 of the GK's best terminators took on Angron and his retinue to banish him for 1000 years at best, and at a horrific cost of all of those lives save something like 3 from memory, and among the dead was the GK Grand Master of the time.

And you see NO issue with nothing being written about his personality or character? Because we all know that 'dark with mysterious past' is never the hallmark of a mary-sue now is it?

No seriously dude. You should probably stop trying to defend his fluff now. But if you are trolling me then well played. 10/10 cause I raged hard.

Kaldor wrote:
Why would they want to get rid of him? He's trapped for their entertainment.

No he is not, there is a paragraph that said: "even the Dark Gods cannot expel Draigo from the Warp."
So much about "entertainment" theory...

Atma01 wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Atma01 wrote: Draigo is the most mary-sue character in 40K

Not even a little bit. There is next to nothing written about Draigo's personality or character to know whether what he is like. All we know is that he has an iron determination, and that he is trapped in the warp and can no longer effect real change on the galaxy at large.

>Implying that being a mary-sue has anything to do with personality and nothing to do with being the bestest at everything

No seriously what? He literally carved a name into the Demonic Primarch Mortation's heart. Not regular Primarch, ascended Demon form Primarch. LITERALLY. That is but ONE of the literal LIST of stupidly overpowered things Draigo has done. This was after the old fluff where like 100 of the GK's best terminators took on Angron and his retinue to banish him for 1000 years at best, and at a horrific cost of all of those lives save something like 3 from memory, and among the dead was the GK Grand Master of the time.

And you see NO issue with nothing being written about his personality or character? Because we all know that 'dark with mysterious past' is never the hallmark of a mary-sue now is it?

No seriously dude. You should probably stop trying to defend his fluff now. But if you are trolling me then well played. 10/10 cause I raged hard.

He sounds like either a die-hard GK fanboy or Matt Ward himself.

the 1d4chan article while crude pretty much sums everything correctly up.

I think people should look up what "Mary Sue" means.

Wiki wrote:
A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfilment fantasy for the author or reader. It is generally accepted as a character whose positive aspects overwhelm their other traits until they become one-dimensional.

The Dark Eldar example is still the best. Vect is the most intelligent, most devious, most brilliant, most everything. And his only "flaw" is that he came from a low background and had to "work" his way up the hierarchy. And the way the text is written about "milk-white" skin without a single scar and a psyche "a near infinite palace of plans" its text-book wishfulflilment for pudgy 15-year old boys who like to wear eye-shadows and write diaries bound with embossed black roses. Vects picture in the dictionary next to "Mary Sue" would not be out of place.

Phil Kelly wrote:
Asdrubael Vect is quite simply the most devious and intelligent Dark Eldar ever to have existed. His milk-white skin bears not a single scar, though his void-black eyes convey so much hatred that his soul must be calloused indeed. Such is his mind's complexity that it could be likened to a fractal's edge or the crystal labyrinth of Tzeentch. His psyche is a near-infinite palace of plans, counter-measures and ploys that take centuries to come to fruition, but to one who has lived for many millenia, the passage of a hundred years is little more than the passing of a season. There is no intrique Vect has not thwarted a dozen times over, no treachery he has not forseen and turned upon itself.

Draigo in comparison is just about as far away from Mary Sue as you can get in literature. He virtually defined by his flaw of eternal entrappment, of his inability to ever change anything, of his everpresent torment of having to choose between freedom through corruption and ineffectiveness through his own stoic resolution. And he sure as hell does not make Chaos weak. If Chaos had even the slightest weakness against Draigo, he would break the Chaos-curse upon him that is his predicament. All that chaos does is taunt him with mock-victories that mean nothing because they happen in the Warp, which is only, literally, a reflection of wishes, desires and thoughts in the first place.

Quoting a wiki article for a definition. Brb, I totally have some unrelated information change I need to do on the internet that totally won't change this argument.... *Rolls eyes* If you are seriously going to use the wiki article I will just get a round table going on /tg/ and someone will change it to whatever we agree upon. The 1d4chan is far more accurate since no one ever truly agrees on the definition.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

And seriously? You have yet to address his powerlevel. PLEASE explain to me how that list of achievements he has pulled off is not power spank? He made Mortation look like a kitten, and practically flipped off Nurgle by burning his gardens without any sort of comeuppance. Oh no I am totally trapped in the warp, except for all those times I can come out and fight and totally own everything around me without even trying because I LITERALLY CARVED A NAME INTO THE BEATING HEART OF A DAEMON PRIMARCH.

I mean where can one go from there to out powerwank that? Will they retcon Abbaddon's fluff so there was this one time at Astartes camp he totally punched the Emperor in the face and got away with it? Or the Tau develop a way to control the Hive Mind? Or Eldrad claws his way back from death just to spit on the Nightbringer's shard and tell his children that everything is going just to his plan? Do you not see how stupidly this escalates when things aren't kept in check?

Since you seem so keen on quoting the Vect entry, care to share Draigo's with us? I mean fair is fair right? Lets put them side by side and let the comparisons show if they are so self evident.

Zweischneid wrote:I think people should look up what "Mary Sue" means.

Wiki wrote:
A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfilment fantasy for the author or reader. It is generally accepted as a character whose positive aspects overwhelm their other traits until they become one-dimensional.

You clearly lack a deep understanding of your own definition.

Draigo is the embodiment of the following wish fulfillment - ultimate bad ass. Being trapped, that is to say, having a problem independent of the character and thus not a character flaw by definition, does not in any way limit the awesomeness of Draigo. It means that he is perennially romping around the Warp bashing Daemons skulls in. That's part of the problem. It's like saying a British soldier in World War 2 could waltz through Berlin and punch Hitler in the face, but the problem is that he was late to D-Day.

Also, self sacrifice and eternal commitment to one's charge is usually seen as a virtue. It's valorous. It's just another positive personality trait. Next question.

Atma01 wrote:

I mean where can one go from there to out powerwank that? Will they retcon Abbaddon's fluff so there was this one time at Astartes camp he totally punched the Emperor in the face and got away with it?

In a nutshell.

TedNugent wrote:It's like saying a British soldier in World War 2 could waltz through Berlin and punch Hitler in the face.

Exactly. Only Captain America can do that.

Atma01 wrote:And you see NO issue with nothing being written about his personality or character?

Firstly, the battle with Mortarion is no issue. Or at least it shouldn't be to anyone with a skerrick of imagination, because of course Mortarion was weakened by fighting the previous Supreme Grand Master, and this was in the middle of a battle. Perhaps it was a dedicated Grey Knights strike force, led by hundreds of Paladins and the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights and other sudry characters? Who knows, the background to the battle is never alluded to. And thats how I like it, it lets me put my own personal spin on it. It's definately one of those things where less is more.

Brother Coa wrote:No he is not, there is a paragraph that said: "even the Dark Gods cannot expel Draigo from the Warp."
So much about "entertainment" theory...

There is no such paragraph. The closest we get is "Yet if the Dark Gods could not vanquish Draigo, then nor could Draigo win any meaningful victory"

Think about it. If you're eternal, then how precious is something you've never encountered before? Why would they want to simply destroy him when it's so much more fun to play with him and see which of them can break him?

Living forever in the Warp sounds kind of like sleeping in a bed of termites.

Does he ever get tired? If you wanted to go relax in the shade, you would get your face ripped off.

It compounds the insanity that he's literally trapped there and can't get out. How does he even stay alive, then? Every minute of every day he's chopping demons to bits?

Well, I cannot quote the full Draigo entry (neither did I for Vect) as I am likely already violating some copyright stuff.

But a sample if you wish

Grey Knights Codex wrote:
Through such acts, and many thousands more, did Kaldor Draigo forge a new legend, but this time in a domain where legend is the stuff of life. Rarely now did Daemons hount Draigo's footsteps. The Grey Knight had time and again proved his utter resistance to corruption, and had left so many thousands of slaughtered Daemons in his wake that now only the most crazed of Khorne's minions continued to seek his death. That anything could exist in the Realm of Chaos, yet be utterly immunne to the will of the Chaos Gods, was a fresh impossibility in a domain riven with the impossible. Yet if the Dark Gods could not vanquish Draigo, then nor could Draigo win any meaningful victory. The Daemons he slew inevitably returned in new bodies, Nurgle's mighty jungle regrew from the ashes and even the tumbled walls of the Invevitable City righted themselves.

[...]

Such has been Draigo's fate ever repeated since: to walk the Realm of Chaos for unknowable spans of time, on occasion taking his eternal battle into the mortal world for brief spans before being freshly jailed upon victory. It is hard to imagine the fortitude of character that allows Draigo to endure such hardship, yet endure it does. He walks the Realm of Chaos still, continuing his eternal battle against the Chaos Gods.

One day, he will return.

He has one outstanding characteristic.. incorruptability (no soft-white skin or anything of his physical features or abilities are described). And it is precisely his in-corruptability which seals his Sisyphian Challenge of fighting endlessly against something he can never win or even truly harm. It's a larger-than-life character aiming for greek-epic-style trageday for sure, Sisyphus being the most obvious inspiration, but he isn't unflawed or unconditionally "awsome" in the way Vect (or other DE characters) are described. His impact on the 40K universe is nearly null, far less certainly than, for example, the Decapitator who is about to end the entire universe for reasons unknown or, in plain straigh-up-battle, Maugan Ra who defends entire planets from Hive Fleets single-handedly and walks the Eye of Terror unbeaten, yet free to come and go as he pleases (unlike Draigo's exile).

And yes, I think Ward's focus on "events" compared with the dull, expositionary descriptives of Kelly is far superiour writing. Draigo is presented as iconic example of Grey Knight incorruptability and perseverance through a parable of events and epic history. Vect is presented as iconic example of brilliantly sadistic scheming Dark Eldar ways by being told straight to the readers face that "he is the most intelligent, most devious" there is. Yet Kelly never shows why or how this would be. It's just by arbitrary fiat Kelly that his characters are defined as such and we're expected to just eat it up. Ward, in contrast, provides context and story from which to infer characteristics of the dramatic persona. Ward's writing is lightyears ahead of Kelly's kindergarden-level of expositionary (and Mary-Sue-heavy) scribbling.

It is hard to imagine the fortitude of character

In other words a positive personality trait in fact so positive that it is mindboggling to the author ohmygodwishfullfilment.

The wonderful thing here is that Ward is doing my job for me. He didn't say "it's hard to quantify how much valor/endurance/incorruptibility Draigo has," he said point blank "It is hard to imagine" and "the fortitude of character" (emphasis added). So it's not even just that he's saying that he has one tremendous personality trait. He's saying that he has a fortuitous character that boggles the imagination.

That is to say, Draigo's character, net boggles imagination.

It's practically Mary Sue by definition.

Look I am just going to walk away from this whole discussion. I tried logic and reasoning, but I believe you are being willfully ignorant in what you choose to acknowledge here.

You have an example of an English professor using him as an example of how NOT to write a character, and I know HBMC who writes for FFG now (as in PAID to write) agrees. If subject experts cannot sway your stance then so be it as much of this is subjective. But for your own sake I urge you to try and build a more coherent argument than what you have brought to the table here. As there are cruel people out there who will bring you to task for it.

But we have lost sight of the OP's intent. This is why WE as individuals hate Mat Ward, so it really doesn't fall to us to try and disprove opinions. Since ultimately that is impossible given they are opinions and that is just their nature. I don't have any respect for your opinions in this matter, but I will leave them alone from here on in.

I am not sure what your point is. You are free to hate anyone and anything all you want.

But if you come to a public board to broadcast your opinion, expect to see flawed reasoning being pointed out.

Oh, and I am paid to write too, and for GW-license products as well, and HBMC is quite known to be a fairly jaded revisionist whose opinion on just about everything 40K can be summed up as "everything was better in the old days".

Yet unlike you or others, I can formulate a reasoned opinion on my own, rather than trying to support my unreasoned hatred by the assumed authority implied by the fact that other (ideally with fancy titles, of which I too have a few nonetheless as that seems to be something you attribute authority to) share in that unreasoned hatred.

And since you "hate" Mat Ward, it is sure up to you to provide a coherent reasoning for it if you want to have your opinion taken seriously if you voice them publicly. It would be a sad world indeed if "hating" something was considered the default and it fell to others to "disprove" it.

Kaldor wrote:
There is no such paragraph. The closest we get is "Yet if the Dark Gods could not vanquish Draigo, then nor could Draigo win any meaningful victory"

Think about it. If you're eternal, then how precious is something you've never encountered before? Why would they want to simply destroy him when it's so much more fun to play with him and see which of them can break him?

That is that paragraph, in other words: "Yet if the Chaos Gods could not banish/destroy/kill Draigo, then nor coudl Draigo win by any meaningful victory."
Witch means that Draigo can't defeat them but they also cannot kill him for some reason.
Witch means that Draigo is something Chaos Gods cannot kill - that is Matt Ward logic of a perfect Grey Knight.

Oh, and fact that he destroyed every God's most powerful Daemon and sacred object, all while being in the Warp, is even more hilarious that Chaos Gods not being able to kill him.

Everyone hates Mat Ward because he has made the game of 40k stupid....

His units are OP, his fluff is ballz etc...

Balance is not in Wards vocab

Hey now! Don't y'all be appealin' to authority using me as that authority!


If Ward is the Stephanie Myers of 40K writing, then Draigo is the Bella Swan of 40K fluff - a blank-slate characterless author-self-insertion fantasy for all the 12-year-old boys reading his fluff. He can do no wrong, he does things that no one else can do (and does them effortlessly), and his mere presence within the fluff invalidates so much sacrifice from other characters. It was almost as if after Cruddace had the Swarmlord gimp Carlgar, Ward had to do something, so came up with a character even more over the top, even more flawless and even more incorruptible.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Hey now! Don't y'all be appealin' to authority using me as that authority!


If Ward is the Stephanie Myers of 40K writing, then Draigo is the Bella Swan of 40K fluff - a blank-slate characterless author-self-insertion fantasy for all the 12-year-old boys reading his fluff. He can do no wrong, he does things that no one else can do (and does them effortlessly), and his mere presence within the fluff invalidates so much sacrifice from other characters. It was almost as if after Cruddace had the Swarmlord gimp Carlgar, Ward had to do something, so came up with a character even more over the top, even more flawless and even more incorruptible.

You mean Stephenie Meyer? And it's not Ward who is filling the 40K universe with hauntingly beautiful, white-skinned characters who squat around gloomy scenery as the brood, morbidly obsessed with proving to the uncaring world their non-mediocrity by any means necessary. That bill, once again, fits Vect, the Decapitator, etc.. . Oh. And Kelly also brings you the Wolf-team by turning a Chapter none previously for wolf-iconography into literally wolf-raised, wolf-born, wolfriding, wolf-claw wielding man-wolves.

My favorite part of this thread Zwei, is where you ignored all my other posts on the matter. Like seriously dude, pull the other one. It has bells on.

Sorry, I think my new favorite part was where you corrected his spelling of Stephenie Meyer. Because that speaks volumes to me.

Atma01 wrote:My favorite part of this thread Zwei, is where you ignored all my other posts on the matter. Like seriously dude, pull the other one. It has bells on.

I can hardly respond to every post by everyone posted here. And how should I respond to idiocy like putting a 1d4chan definition over a wiki definition. Stuff like that largely strikes my as flamebaiting, if anything, rather than trying to initiate a reasoned discussion. And while I may have ignored some of your points, you have not actually addressed to a single one of the arguments i made other than saying there's a professor who disagrees and thus my arguments are false by default.


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Atma01 wrote:

Sorry, I think my new favorite part was where you corrected his spelling of Stephenie Meyer. Because that speaks volumes to me.

Because I like to get facts straight, unlike others who take their opinion of 1d4chan? As I said, I do alot of writing and editing for a living; especially in a branch of literature such as 40K that works around fantasy and science fiction aimed in no small parts at a teenage and early twen audience. Forgive me for knowing the name of one of the most successful authors in this broad sector of the last few years. And yes, I have even read sections of here (admittedly horrible) books. Which is why I recognize the same literary style and characters in Kelly's work.

1D4chan is a wiki.

I'm sorry but forgiveness in that matter can only be found in death. And even then I would not be your ultimate judge.

And oh sorry you couldn't be bothered addressing my other points? I thought I voiced them publicly like your post said I should. I thought I was just holding you to the same standard that you are holding me. My bad.

Would you like me to dredge them up again so we can start this tango all over? Because I just had some time free up and I retract my statement that I was walking away.

Atma01 wrote:

Would you like me to dredge them up again so we can start this tango all over? Because I just had some time free up and I retract my statement that I was walking away.

Go for it.