Tyrannids or orks

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**DemetriDominov**

Scrabb wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:has more destructive capabilities

BlaxicanX wrote:and are less likely to succumb to a power vacuum.
The God Emperor of Mankind is fanatically worshiped by some factions. The High Lords of Terra and the Mech faction (the name escapes me right now), not so much. I mean, all the ork clans working together is more believable than all the space marine chapters working together.

This is all, of course, IMHO.

I'm glad it's opinion because it's not even remotely true. The very idea of the Emperor holds the Imperium together, what degree of fanaticism they believe in their Lord doesn't really matter considering there is no doubt everyone in the Imperium is already united under only the notion of the Carrion Lord still being their God, this includes but is not limited to: every Adeptus Astartes Chapter, the Ecclesiarchy (the Sisters of Battle), the Administratum, the Adeptus Mechanicus, The Imperial Navy, the Imperial Guard, the Officio Assassinorum, the Inquisition with its three ordos: Hereticus, Xenos, and Mallous, the Adeptus Arbites, and the vast hordes of undefined pilgrims, crusaders, and fanatical warriors that don't really fall under an organization other than the population of the Imperium. Even with its shortcomings of bureaucracy and corruption, there is no doubt that the Imperium is probably the most focused organization in the 40k universe with amazing capabilities of recovering very quickly after an important leader has fallen. The Orks on the other hand are squabbling mobs and warbands and have a very difficult time even agreeing on who to smash first, let alone decide on a new leader and direction after a warlord has fallen.

**willhman**

DemetriDominov wrote:
A small mind is easily filled with faith.

Back at ya sir!!!!!!!!!

Not exactly. Really, the only thing that will unite *the Imperium* will be the resurrection of the Emperor, and there are many theories as to how that'll happen.

I meant on the battlefield, what would happen if the emperor died leading humanity against all the orks in the galaxy, total breakdown and mass panic. Have to remeber that he is a god to the iom these days. Silly humans. As you said Demetri a small mind is easily filled with faith!!!

**Ascalam**

And too small for doubt...

Nothing like brainwashed culties to make for fun discussions - You can't be a fundamentalist without being fun and mental

**xkiwitimex**

ALL Orks VS ALL tyranids? Orks infest the galaxy and could indeed overtake it if they were to group together, nonetheless the Tyranids that have entered our galaxy so far are only the vanguard of their main force. That is, if the Tyranids don't have infinite numbers and have indeed devoured multiple galaxies already.
Conclusion: Tyranids are more numerous, so they'll eventually win.

**willhman**

We dont know if there are more nids outside the galaxy so that factor cant be brought up. What we do know is that there are more orks than any other race even tyranids at the moment that is!!! If there are more nids out there then yes they might be able to do what you say and win but since there isnt then advantage orks!!!!

**Ascalam**

We don't know the total numbers for either race.

There might well be extragalactic Orks too, after all

**DemetriDominov**

willhman wrote:
I meant on the battlefield, what would happen if the emperor died leading humanity against all the orks in the galaxy, total breakdown and mass panic. Have to remeber that he is a god to the iom these days. Silly humans. As you said Demetri a small mind is easily filled with faith!!!

Well, as I said; rationally, the Emperor would need to be resurrected in the first place, and since no Living Saints have truly died on the battlefield, nor have any other "lesser" Gods been destroyed there, like the C'tan, it would probably not happen as you would imagine. If the Emperor came back to life, it would mean that he could likely do it many times more if an enemy was actually capable of mortally wounding him once more.

**willhman**

But the Emperor is not dead so all that would really happen is that he would be able to move like he used to.Im not talking bout a mortal wound more like a instant death type of deal. Also gods have been destroyed in the warhammer 40k universe before and they were some major gods. The Emperor is not a god any way he is just stylised as one.

**Scrabb**

DemetriDominov wrote:Well, as I said; rationally, the Emperor would need to be resurrected in the first place, and since no Living Saints have truly died on the battlefield, nor have any other "lesser" Gods been destroyed there, like the C'tan, it would probably not happen as you would imagine. If the Emperor came back to life, it would mean that he could likely do it many times more if an enemy was actually capable of mortally wounding him once more.

Right. So let's say a vortex grenade goes off on Terra and the golden throne is vaporized. Or even just the wrong servo skull notices the body is a corpse. The Imperium fails to suppress this information leading to rebellions/chaos defections/attacks on those who 'murdered' the Emperor/opportunistic assassinations/Lords of Terra disagreeing on what to do. etc. etc.

Now let's imagine Ghazzy croaks.

Which faction will recover quicker and which one lost more?

**DemetriDominov**

Scrabb wrote:
DemetriDominov wrote:Well, as I said; rationally, the Emperor would need to be resurrected in the first place, and since no Living Saints have truly died on the battlefield, nor have any other "lesser" Gods been destroyed there, like the C'tan, it would probably not happen as you would imagine. If the Emperor came back to life, it would mean that he could likely do it many times more if an enemy was actually capable of mortally wounding him once more.
Right. So let's say a vortex grenade goes off on Terra and the golden throne is vaporized. Or even just the wrong servo skull notices the body is a corpse. The Imperium fails to suppress this information leading to rebellions/chaos defections/attacks on those who 'murdered' the Emperor/opportunistic assassinations/Lords of Terra disagreeing on what to do. etc. etc.

Now let's imagine Ghazzy croaks.

Which faction will recover quicker and which one lost more?

Well I can't answer you because there is no lore to support your claim. The Imperium stands united and so long as there is a glimmer of hope that the Emperor can rise again like Jesus of Nazerath, the Imperium will remain that way. The Orks simply will do as they have always done, fight each other until a leader emerges that can beat all the other Orks.

**Scrabb**

Right. The Imperium stands united under The Emperor. I believe that means the Imperium as a faction is much more vulnerable to a power vacuum. It stands to reason that the more important/successful/involved(the astrominican anyone?) your leader is, the more painful the loss said leader will be.

Truthfully, the Emperor is not going to disappear from this setting. He's one of the threads that the balance of the 40k setting is standing on. Allow him to be reborn, kill him or even just have humanity lose faith in him and the setting cannot remain in stasis.

I'm trying to contest the assertion that Orks are more vulnerable to power vacuums than the Imperium. So I took it straight to the top. On any level though the Imperium is going to have a harder time replacing talent than the Orks. IMHO

**DemetriDominov**

Scrabb wrote:Right. The Imperium stands united under The Emperor. I believe that means the Imperium as a faction is much more vulnerable to a power vacuum. It stands to reason that the more important/successful/involved(the astrominican anyone?) your leader is, the more painful the loss said leader will be.

Truthfully, the Emperor is not going to disappear from this setting. He's one of the threads that the balance of the 40k setting is standing on. Allow him to be reborn, kill him or even just have humanity lose faith in him and the setting cannot remain in stasis.

I'm trying to contest the assertion that Orks are more vulnerable to power vacuums than the Imperium. So I took it straight to the top. On any level though the Imperium is going to have a harder time replacing talent than the Orks. IMHO

But that's where you're wrong, the Imperium's massive bureaucracy actually protects it from said power vacuum because there isn't just one leader, there are whole councils, planetary lords, and policing organizations under the God-Emperor striving to protect the Imperium for the second coming. That being said, we could argue all day about what would happen to the Imperium after the Emperor dies because as it is written right now, it seems as though it is inevitable. So ultimately, either I'm right, he returns, unites the Imperium once and for all and kicks the living day-lights out the Orks and everyone else, or you're right and he doesn't, causing the Imperium to fall into chaos, anarchy, and corruption. There's really nothing else to discuss about it lol.

**Laughing God**

DemetriDominov wrote: Even with its shortcomings of bureaucracy and corruption, there is no doubt that the Imperium is probably the most focused organization in the 40k universe with amazing capabilities of recovering very quickly after an important leader has fallen. The Orks on the other hand are squabbling mobs and warbands and have a very difficult time even agreeing on who to smash first, let alone decide on a new leader and direction after a warlord has fallen.

While I agree that the Imperium is vastly more organized than orks are your above statement simply isn’t true. I'd like to reference the Horus Heresy, The Age of Apostasy, The Badab War, the list goes on and on where the Imerium turns in on itself all the time.

Tyranids do not fight each other unless it benefits the whole Hive Mind. Tyranids are really the only race that is truly unified under one leadership and rule with betrayal. Tau are a close second with only one real leader breaking off from them.

Eldar craftworlds and Kabals fight each other all the time. Orks love to fight. Necron dynasties are at each others throats or in petty power struggles with each other now (stupid new fluff). The Imperium of man has thousands of separatists, traitors, heretics, or sometimes they just get confused with all the bureaucracy of things. It is the nature of Chaos to turn on each other.

Now to go back to the main point who will take the galaxy or who has more numbers: Orks or Nids. Well its impossible to say really without actually knowing the resources or the numbers nids actually have. Their background is so vuege they could have void spanning swarms that eat galaxies or just desperate hive fleets fleeing a greater threat. Over all a impossible argument IMO, but if I had to guess I would say nids with the war in the Octiava System as evidence for my case. Even with the odds against them the nids are winning.

**DemetriDominov**

@ Laughing God: But that's exactly the thing, the Imperium does fight itself on occasion, but it resolves it far quicker, and most of the time, (the AoA is really the only exception) the Imperium isn't fighting itself, its losing parts of itself to sedition. As a whole, the Imperium still remains very focused on damage control to fight the unruly Orks and other threats while simultaneously dealing with the civil war. Apart from that I'd agree with you on the statement about the Tyranids.

**willhman**

How are the nids winnin the war?? I hear it is at a complete stand still neither side is winning or losin. The biggest thing that is happening is eldar and IOM attackin the orks. Some people beleive that they are attackin the orks is to keep sides balanced. The Octarius system is literally shut down to all people sept orks\nids there isnt any evidence that the nids are winnin or have one so I dont see the example there.

As for the IOM the reason people dont revolt more often is because of fear and faith. If you take away just one of those things and instant chaos over the IOM. Besides you keep sayin that the councils in charge will take over, but who will listen?? If people found out that the Emperor died all forces ALL FORCES would join the side of chaos or kill themselves!!!! The peasants would revolt and it would be utter chaos!!!!

**BlaxicanX**

The Emperor's been dead for ten thousand years, and the Imperium is still standing.

The fluff alone completely decimates your point.

**Sasori**

willhman wrote:How are the nids winnin the war?? I hear it is at a complete stand still neither side is winning or losin. The biggest thing that is happening is eldar and IOM attackin the orks. Some people beleive that they are attackin the orks is to keep sides balanced. The Octarius system is literally shut down to all people sept orks\nids there isnt any evidence that the nids are winnin or have one so I dont see the example there.

As for the IOM the reason people dont revolt more often is because of fear and faith. If you take away just one of those things and instant chaos over the IOM. Besides you keep sayin that the councils in charge will take over, but who will listen?? If people found out that the Emperor died all forces ALL FORCES would join the side of chaos or kill themselves!!!! The peasants would revolt and it would be utter chaos!!!!

Well, according to March's WD, the Nids are winning the war in the Octarius Sector. Several planets have fallen and on world itself, It says that Three leaders have been killed by the Swarmlord and two continents have completely fallen to the Hive fleet.

**BlaxicanX**

Yeah.... sounds like the beginning of the end for the Orks.

What's hilarious about all this, though, is that once the fight gets close to ending, the Imperium's just going to lob a few dozen vortex missiles at the planet and erase 99% of the bio-mass Leviathin's collected there anyway. They've already got air-superiority anyway (hence the blockading).

**willhman**

Thank you Sasori I didnt know bout the white dwarf magazine update. Last I heard bout the war was that it was still too close to tell. I still beleive that the orks can win the fight!!!!!

As to Blaxican the Emperor is not dead or else we wouldnt have the Astronomican to lead the fleets of the IOM. He is alive but he cant leave the golden throne or he WILL die.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlaxicanX wrote:What's hilarious about all this, though, is that once the fight gets close to ending, the Imperium's just going to lob a few dozen vortex missiles at the planet and erase 99% of the bio-mass Leviathin's collected there anyway. They've already got air-superiority anyway (hence the blockading).

Then tell me why then didnt just do that at the start sir?? I beleive that they dont have air superiority at ALL!!! The only reason that the blockade is doin well is because the orks and nids are too busy duckin it out with each other while some ships might accidently enter the IOM "Blochade". The main forces are around the planets where all the real fighting is happening. If they wanted to the orks OR the nids could easily break through that blockade.(Once again it is in my opinion dont really know that would happen). But why would they both have put too much resources\having too much fun to quit so all that can really happen is wait till the end.

Heh Sasori what was the name of the wd that talked about the octarius war was called??

**BlaxicanX**

willhman wrote:
As to Blaxican the Emperor is not dead or else we wouldnt have the Astronomican to lead the fleets of the IOM. He is alive but he cant leave the golden throne or he WILL die.

His body is already dead. It's his soul that is still alive in the warp and creating the astronomicon.

Then tell me why then didnt just do that at the start sir?

Because that would defeat the whole point of starting the war in the first place. The Octavius war was started as a way to eradicate an Ork menace and to serve as a diversion to buy the Imperium enough time to muster its forces and deal with Leviathan. If the Imperium simply performed exterminatus on the planet and killed everything on it, there would be nothing left there to draw Leviathan away from Imperial planets, and the Hive-Fleet could focus all its power on Terra.

**willhman**

BlaxicanX wrote:
willhman wrote:
As to Blaxican the Emperor is not dead or else we wouldnt have the Astronomican to lead the fleets of the IOM. He is alive but he cant leave the golden throne or he WILL die.
His body is already dead. It's his soul that is still alive in the warp and creating the astronomicon.

Then tell me why then didnt just do that at the start sir?
Because that would defeat the whole point of starting the war in the first place. The Octavius war was started as a way to eradicate an Ork menace and to serve as a diversion to buy the Imperium enough time to muster its forces and deal with Leviathan. If the Imperium simply performed exterminatus on the planet and killed everything on it, there would be nothing left there to draw Leviathan away from Imperial planets, and the Hive-Fleet could focus all its power on Terra.

Sir if the emperor died then the IOM wouldnt be standin here today. The emperor is technicaly alive but cant use his body. You are right in the sense that the Emperor doesnt do anything politic wise but he is still ALIVE. If he actually dies and does not get reborned then the IOM would fall apart as every fightin force of the IOM fights for their god Emperor. With out him all people would stop listening to the terra council because they ruled under his command. Think of it this way, they have created a religion around him saying he is there god. Now if a relegions god suddenly dies then so does all its support and followers quit that church. The IOM is just one giant religoun with alot of followers. Without the Emperor the religion doesnt matter anymore. People would start switching to other religions like chaos or even the gg. So the Empror is the keystone to the IOM and without him it would collapse in on itself.

As for the war, whoever the winner is would emerge stronger then they entered the war, and since the IOM couldnt handle either of them before they started fightin each other what makes you think they could do it after words when the winnin side would be bigger and stronger than before??

**Hezekial**

Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
Hezekial wrote:I just wanted to chuck my points into this well reasoned and minorly uninformed debate.

1: When haveTyranids ever fought each other? Unlike the Orkz, the Tyranids are one force working in harmony to eat whatever they can. IF the Orkz band together to kill Tyranids they still have the problem of needing a leader they agree on, which will never happen. No single Ork can progress high enough above the others to be unbeatable and the few that have tried meet a swift end at enemy hands during there vain attempts and showing their power.

2: The full force of the Tyranids is unknown where as, Orkz havn't even spread from the known space during 40k history/lore. This means that although there is a specific number of Orkz the tyranids that exsist in the known space may only be a minute portion of their full power. If it calls for it the Hive mind simply needs to draw on more resorces hidden from us.

3: The Tyranids have the Upper hand asthey can cut communications using the Shadows of the Warp, More Orks would have no way of finding if their kin are being attacked and so the Tranids are able to call upon the element of surprise.

4: I admit that the Tyranids will loose on a multiple of Battle fields, but Orkz won't hold a planet forever against an enemy that is endless.

5: Tyranids eat Biomass,Rippers could simply spend their time eating the Orky mushrooms as they grow.This would cut off their reinforcement supply using a minimal resource and stop the growth of Ork forces, then it only needs the numbers to beat the existing Orkz which with all that shroom mass can easily be made. An alternative method would be using Pyrovores to burn the spores as they drift through the air.

These are five, reliable lore backed arguements as to why I feel the Tyranids will win. I agree that Orkz will put up a huge fight and every other race will most likely be killed out in the process, but you can't stop the innevitable. The Orkz vs Deamons arguement inevitably ends the same way. Now Tyranids vs Deamons is a simple task of The Hive mind never actually sees Deamons he could simply disgard their existance and poof no more Deamons.

I agree with your points for the most part but there a few holes
1.)Though Tyranids do not fight eachother there have been Ork Warlords out there that commanded the respect of enough orks to combine WAAAGHS like Ghazghul Mag Urhik Thraka, that I think would have the means to hold them together for such an endevour, though I agree having such a leader may not occur

2.) I am fairly certain that the Emperor tried to take a census of the Orks and was unable to get an idea of exact numbers, except that they existed in every corner of the galaxy, who's to say that they have not ventured beyond, I know long shot, but playing devil's advocate here
3.) I do not believe shadow of the warp would totallly block their abilities or communications entirely as 1 it has a range and 2 WAAAGH esp. Ghazy's still works even in shadow of the warp so I don't believe it can shut the power of the waagh down.. just my opinion
4.) I think that they could I don't think no matter what the tyranids do they could stop all the spores from developing more orks as they would not hold the entire planet and thus areas free of nids or battle could still develop orks
5.) I agree that the nids could use the shrooms, but again they would not control all of the land so the orks would still have shrooms to feed or feed the Squigs

I am not saying who will win, I am just saying I don't think it is easy to call... in my opinion.. cheers all

Ye I see your point of view and I think we both made valid points, It is never easy to call which side will win a war of that scale. It all comes down to luck more than anything and these two races will most likely be the last two in the galaxy, so long as they both don't bugger off somewhere.

**thefragnar**

At first my vote was for the orcs because of the stated reasons of them getting bigger and stronger as time went on...but then someone brought up their reproduction rate through the spores.

Now we all can agree that orkz will lose some battles and thus their biomass will be consumed by nids. They evolve fast and will become bigger and stronger too but what if they also absorb their reproduction abilities. They would be strong nearly unkillable elite troops. Any thoughts on this?

**tgjensen**

Tyranids. That's just their schtick in the fluff: They come in impossibly large numbers and gobble up the galaxy, then move on to the next.

I know it says in the Codex and elsewhere that if the Orks ever united, they'd be unstoppable, and that's cool and all, but it gets brought up way too much, because it would -never- happen. And it isn't even the point. The thing about Orks is that they're the classic antagonist. They make it into every game adaptation for that reason: Not as the "final" enemy, but as the grunts. They're just great, straightforward enemies to fight, even if you can't really attach a grand overarching plot to them. And the thing about them being so numerous is, you can't ever get rid of them. There's a story in the codex about how a probe was sent out 14,000 years ago in the hopes of discovering the limits of the Universe, and it still sends back a faint signal of whatever transmissions it picks up - and many of them are Ork signals. The Imperium will -never- get rid of the Orks. And since they absolutely love to fight, that means the Imperium will always be at war. In that sense the Ork sum up everything the whole setting is about: "in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war"! To the humans, it's an absolute nightmare. To an Ork, it's the time of your life. You can kill the Eldar, wipe out the Tau, seal off the warp and hold the Tyranids at bay, but you won't ever get peace from the Orks.

And even if you somehow did manage to finally beat them and kill every single last one of them, they'd die doing what they love the most. And that is why Orks already won.

**Scrabb**

Thing is TGJ, nowadays being able to kill everyone else forever for real is everyone's schtick. The Imperium, Chaos, Necrons, Nids and Orks are all the final, last survivor; the one that can beat anyone. The fun bit is trying to pick apart which one really has what it takes.

Althought I wholeheartedly agree with you that da orks have already won, philosophically speaking.

**willhman**

thefragnar wrote:At first my vote was for the orcs because of the stated reasons of them getting bigger and stronger as time went on...but then someone brought up their reproduction rate through the spores.

Now we all can agree that orkz will lose some battles and thus their biomass will be consumed by nids. They evolve fast and will become bigger and stronger too but what if they also absorb their reproduction abilities. They would be strong nearly unkillable elite troops. Any thoughts on this?

Yeah the thing is, if the nids do use the spore gene then they get ride of their greatest weapon. Evoulution. See every thing comes from the Norn queens, Which are the ones that give the tyranid swarm the mutations. If they came from spores, then yes they would have a lot more numbers, but that would take time in wich to grow.Also since they are no longer coming from the norn queens, they are all exaclty the same, no upgrades sept for the one that the original had. So those are the main reasons that they are not using spores. Also how would the leadership work?? Since the leaderstrains are bigger they would take longer in incubation then, say the gaunts wich would attack everyone on site, not to mention how long it would take the leaders to finally round up all the gaunts in the area, to long the fleet would have been killed\starved to death by then.

Also even if the orks lose, they would still win cause there spores in space would land on planets\asteriods creatin more ork life in the galaxy. In the end the orks are the Ultimate survivors!!!!!

**Hornifex**

In the nids codex Kryptman put a splinter of hive fleet leviathon into the octavious system. Whilst millions of orks flocked to fight, the nids thrived on the whole war and took out the Warboss Skarfang with lictors, resulting in a tyranid win. If a splinter could take out an entire Waaagh then all the tyranids could wipe out the orks.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

willhman wrote:

Truly, we are an ignorant people to believe that the only possible way that the Tyrannids are here... are because of the Orks over all of the infinite possibilities of the universe, there is no other explaination than, "Oh, Orks and Tyrannids... must be the Orks then." What if the Tyrannids just ate all the Orks in the other galaxy they came from lol?

Orks could be a tyranid delicacy.

**thefragnar**

Thanks wilham. I was actually referring to a single type of nid. Like a termigaunt or genestealer but an orky nid. Only one is capable to do. Like a forward scout that causes chaos before their big arrival. But that is a great point that i hadn't thought of.

**BlaxicanX**

What's this "ork spores in space" nonsense? An ork spore in space would would just burn up the in the atmosphere. If a regular old flamer can be roast an ork to the point where it prevents it from releasing spores, the atmosphere will do just as good of a job.

Not too mention, I highly doubt a planet's gravitational pull is strong enough to drag a microscoping orc spore down to the planet.

Come on, guys. I know this is an ork-themed site, but the spank's gotta stop. Orks aren't unstoppable by any stretch of the imagination. It just takes more effort to exterminate them from the galaxy than any faction has the patience for.

**willhman**

Hornifex wrote:In the nids codex Kryptman put a splinter of hive fleet leviathon into the octavious system. Whilst millions of orks flocked to fight, the nids thrived on the whole war and took out the Warboss Skarfang with lictors, resulting in a tyranid win. If a splinter could take out an entire Waaagh then all the tyranids could wipe out the orks.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

willhman wrote:

Truly, we are an ignorant people to believe that the only possible way that the Tyrannids are here... are because of the Orks over all of the infinite possibilities of the universe, there is no other explaination than, "Oh, Orks and Tyrannids... must be the Orks then." What if the Tyrannids just ate all the Orks in the other galaxy they came from lol?

Orks could be a tyranid delicacy.

instead of wringtin a huge essay on skarfang here is the lexicanum page on him http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Skarfang. It says that he died in a waaagh but the waaaagh is still goin.

I dont think I typed that quote cause it says that it could be that the nids actually killed all the orks in all the other galaxys, which is just as probable as if they are running away from them

To thefragnar there is a nid unit that has ork genes, its name is the Biovore check it out its pretty cool. Look closly at its jaw I think it will look familiar to you

To BlaxicanX it is possible for an ork spore to land on a planet through the push of etheric winds, which would pusk the spore to a planet. Since their spores are micro-scopic they may not burn up in entry. IDK, so I may be wrong. But the spores might not land on a Planet, its has a higher chance on landin on a meteor or something there it could give rise to a entire ecosystem of orks on that one meteor.