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nosferatu1001 wrote:So when you removed the model from play, you dont thibk it triggers a rule that activates when you remove the model frm play?

You dont "replace the model from play", as that is a nonsense phrase - in order to replace the St C model with the squig you have to remove the St C model from play. At which point her special rule kicks in.

Coming back to it, when does the target model become a squig directly after the roll off but before you place the model. So the target model lose all wargear or special rules or has none, This all happens before you get the squig model to replace the target model and before you remove the target model from the table therefore MI cannot kick in before the rule that removes special rules. 1) roll off zog wins target is squig 2) target gain squig stats 3)model is replaced. Everyone on the MI side is ignoring that the as soon as you win the target is a squig, not when you pick up St C so before you can remove her she lose MI

The Squig does not have Special Rules.

St. Celestine still has her special rules.

This, which was my error in a previous thread, too.

You remove Celestine, all her rules intact, and put a squig model (Angry Squig, actually) where she was, which has no special rules other than being an IC.

Wow, this is still going?

DeathReaper has the patience of a saint

But seriously, I don't see how there is any confusion about this?

1) St. Celestine is placed on the table - her rule makes a constant check every phase "Has St. Celestine been removed from play?"
2) As soon as that statement becomes true, for any reason, her rules kick into effect. If the model 'St. Celestine' is no longer on the table she has, by definition, been removed from play.
3) The act of replacing her with a squig (or a SM Sergeant, Great Gargant, Thunderhawk, etc) have no bearing on the situation as her special rule has already been satisfied.
4) You can then have a squig, and a St. Celestine on the table at the same time (as silly as it sounds).

It might not make sense from a fluff perspective, but this is exactly what the rules say. It doesn't care how she's removed from play, it just cares that she's removed from play. And, as DeathReaper has been saying for 8 pages, if the St. Celestine model was on the table, and now isn't, then St. Celestine has been removed from play.

My 2 cents.

DoW

As a compromise, I would allow the squig to benefit from the MI rule. It makes more sense than having both Saint Celestine and Squig Celestine on the table anyway.

Would make even more sense then having St Celestine and 4+ Squig Celestine's on the board

Happyjew wrote:Would make even more sense then having St Celestine and 4+ Squig Celestine's on the board

Yeah, because there's a good chance that a SoB player will play an ork player who has Zogwort and that ork player will win 4 contested even up rolls and zogwort will survive that whole time.

The whole thing is silly.

It is highly unlikely that my scenario will actually happen, however, if I'm the SoB player, it is much, much more likely. Dang dice never rolling over a 3...

DogOfWar wrote:Wow, this is still going?

DeathReaper has the patience of a saint

But seriously, I don't see how there is any confusion about this?

1) St. Celestine is placed on the table - her rule makes a constant check every phase "Has St. Celestine been removed from play?"
2) As soon as that statement becomes true, for any reason, her rules kick into effect. If the model 'St. Celestine' is no longer on the table she has, by definition, been removed from play.
3) The act of replacing her with a squig (or a SM Sergeant, Great Gargant, Thunderhawk, etc) have no bearing on the situation as her special rule has already been satisfied.
4) You can then have a squig, and a St. Celestine on the table at the same time (as silly as it sounds).

It might not make sense from a fluff perspective, but this is exactly what the rules say. It doesn't care how she's removed from play, it just cares that she's removed from play. And, as DeathReaper has been saying for 8 pages, if the St. Celestine model was on the table, and now isn't, then St. Celestine has been removed from play.

My 2 cents.

DoW

Please show me how #1) is true, how is it Constantly "on" what rules backs this up. there is only a few things that i know of that Remove from Play, Jotww,SA(not technically no but same effect, even though one could argue that since it does not say SA it can not i guess) Since ST.c is jump infantry she is immune to JOTWW. so that leaves SA tess labs maybe a DE thing or two, SAG. these are wargear, rules that SAY RFP. this is what her faq contributes to. to say her rules which are always on is incredulous at best. but have to be trigger by some sort of death/removal mechanic is true.

Taking her off the table by physically doing so, does not have an in game rule therefor does not apply to her in game rules.

end result she becomes a squig that cant resurrect.

Dude, let it go.

I did till someone brought it back up. i was content at letting it die.

I Still wish to see actual rules that confirm the oppositions side, but I won't hold my breath.

I am the only person who plays either model ZW or ST.c.

How would you take what is written in the ork codex show it to a person and then say, it also says RFP in there somewhere. while trying to argue St.c Comesback.

But unless someone wants to drag this thread back up, i don't care to post on it anymore.

I run good old Zog, but not often.

SM players have a habit of ignoring him via hoods etc, and my other usual opponent plays Psyker-heavy Eldar, which means he will have committed suicide by turn 3...

As far as i'm concerned Celestine makes a lovely squig, and doesn't come back, but the owner of St C will never agree to that (for obvious reasons) , so it always goes to a dice off.

Ascalam wrote:...so it always goes to a dice off.

It shouldn't, as MI kicks in when St. Celestine is removed from play, which is exactly what happens when you remove her and place an angry squig onto the table.

DeathReaper wrote:It shouldn't, as MI kicks in when St. Celestine is removed from play, which is exactly what happens when you remove her and place an angry squig onto the table.

Oh my God, why didn't someone say this earlier, it's all clear now!!

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:
How would you take what is written in the ork codex show it to a person and then say, it also says RFP in there somewhere. while trying to argue St.c Comesback.

So st. C is still in play?

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:
Please show me how #1) is true, how is it Constantly "on" what rules backs this up.

That's an easy one. How is a SM's BS4 "constantly on"? How is a Plague Marine's FnP "constantly on"?

They're traits and statistics the model possesses. They are constantly in effect until something takes place that calls for them. Think of it like a perpetual if-then loop in programming.

Also, if a model is in play at time 'A' and is then not in play at time 'B', then that model has been removed from play. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but how is that even confusing at all?

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:I'm not trying to be a jerk, but how is that even confusing at all?

oh, gee, i dunno, maybe because St. Celestine is what I'm concerned about, not the particular lead model she's being represented by?

I have a question - you're playing in a GT, you actually expect the TO to buy this? Maybe after your opponent shows him the Squig FAQ for RP? Seriously? Or are we just arguing abstract RAW, in which case your protestations of manifest obviousness might have some merit.

Randall Turner wrote:I have a question - you're playing in a GT, you actually expect the TO to buy this?

They should, as that is what the RAW say.

The Necrons Monolith.

Portal to Exile OMNOMNOMNOM no MI save for you! And heck, it even says remove from play as a casualty too! XD


In all seriousness gentlemen and ladies, St Clair doesnt get her MI save. Zogworts Curse is worded poorly too, but no matter which way you swing it, she has no special rules and as such, MI cant trigger as she no longer has that special rule.

DeathReaper wrote:

Randall Turner wrote:I have a question - you're playing in a GT, you actually expect the TO to buy this?

They should, as that is what the RAW say.

Nuff said.

My apologies for re-stirring the hornet's nest. I think we're done here.

DoW

Xzerios wrote:The Necrons Monolith.

Portal to Exile OMNOMNOMNOM no MI save for you! And heck, it even says remove from play as a casualty too! XD


In all seriousness gentlemen and ladies, St Clair doesnt get her MI save. Zogworts Curse is worded poorly too, but no matter which way you swing it, she has no special rules and as such, MI cant trigger as she no longer has that special rule.

Actually Exile Portal would allow MI since it is RfP.

Xzerios wrote:In all seriousness gentlemen and ladies, St Clair doesnt get her MI save. Zogworts Curse is worded poorly too, but no matter which way you swing it, she has no special rules and as such, MI cant trigger as she no longer has that special rule.

Read the Thread.

St. Celestine has her special rules.

The Angry Squig has no special rules.

DeathReaper wrote:

Ascalam wrote:...so it always goes to a dice off.

It shouldn't, as MI kicks in when St. Celestine is removed from play, which is exactly what happens when you remove her and place an angry squig onto the table.

Unless it's functional identical to Everliving, in which case a simple Boon of Mutation would kill her for good, even though it removes the target as casualty.

Same wording and the nonesense multiple St.Squigs/St.Chaos spawns heavily imply so.

So it actually is a dice off - just for a different reason.

@THE_GODLYNESS

How about you actually show us where "removed from play" is defined in Warhammer 40k?
You entire argument is based on something that doesn't exist. But of course, you have ignored that multiple times now.

Quick question, on a similar topic, since we are talking about St Celestine here, is she able to comeback from being swept? MI does not specifically state she can come back, however, she is no longer on the table and as such would have been "removed from play". If it has been answered in this thread I apologize.

Sweeping Advance is Removed as a Casualty / Destroyed, so she specifically gets her MI.

pretre wrote:Sweeping Advance is Removed as a Casualty / Destroyed, so she specifically gets her MI.

[sarcasm]Oh good, then my Everliving models can stand back up after being swept.[/sarcasm] Destroyed is NOT the same as RFPaaC. The two are completely different, otherwise, EL models can come back from being swept, Thawn can come back, St C can come back (however her rule is differnet, hence the reason I asked).

"The falling back unit is destroyed...The destroyed unit is removed immediately."

Celestine gets MI when removed as a casualty or removed from play. So there you go.

However, if she makes her MI roll to come back, she has been rescued which goes against SA. Especially since, MI does not SPECIFICALLY counter SA.

I am not familiar with St. Celestine's rules at all, but if the rule doesn't specify that it saves you from Sweeping Advances then it doesn't. It must specifically say it can save you from Sweeping Advances, otherwise, "...no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage...".

ToBeWilly wrote:I am not familiar with St. Celestine's rules at all,

Let me stop you right there. You might want to read up on StC first. Her rules allow her to come back from any effect that is RfPaaC and RfP with a FAQ on the subject. Basically, if she leaves the table for any reason, she gets back up. I see where you're coming from on the SA specific thing, but her rule is pretty specific that she always gets to roll to come back.