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Red Comet wrote:Wuestenfux how is that good now? You have a lack of vehicle saturation so wouldn't it be easier to kill the vehicle portions or am I just thinking about this as if its 5th Edition?

Well, a wall of Predators and Vindicators is still a decent force for shooty support thanks to counting as fast vehicles. Good luck to strip off that many hull points. In 5th, it was rather easy to silence tank guns by inflicting glancing hits. But now the tanks simply ignore this.

Titan Atlas wrote:Yeah, transporting jump infantry in those strikes me as odd, although at least now you could conceivably get some sort of MSU build out of it (but it'd be insane and they'd be blown out of the sky unless you plan accordingly)

I'm probably going to put sanguinary guard + HQ in a stormraven, along with a dread, and hold them in reserve. Once they come in, fly like a foot away from the enemy with the raven, then next turn go hover, move 6", disembark and attack. Keeps them from being shot up on the way in, and also guarantees I can put them wherever they are most needed.

Horst wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:Yeah, transporting jump infantry in those strikes me as odd, although at least now you could conceivably get some sort of MSU build out of it (but it'd be insane and they'd be blown out of the sky unless you plan accordingly)

I'm probably going to put sanguinary guard + HQ in a stormraven, along with a dread, and hold them in reserve. Once they come in, fly like a foot away from the enemy with the raven, then next turn go hover, move 6", disembark and attack. Keeps them from being shot up on the way in, and also guarantees I can put them wherever they are most needed.

I'd be inclined to mount a DC on foot into a Storm Raven accompanied by a Chaplain and a DC Dread. That's an absolutely deadly combo.

Keep in mind assaulting vehicles just became a lot more dangerous now. Use your tanks to open those battle wagons before you assault. Maybe it's because 5th made me so terrified to bring a SR with DC in them that I'm hesitant to jump on that band wagon. My build in light of 6th is turning more hybrid. Vindicators are an almost must.

Horst wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:Yeah, transporting jump infantry in those strikes me as odd, although at least now you could conceivably get some sort of MSU build out of it (but it'd be insane and they'd be blown out of the sky unless you plan accordingly)

I'm probably going to put sanguinary guard + HQ in a stormraven, along with a dread, and hold them in reserve. Once they come in, fly like a foot away from the enemy with the raven, then next turn go hover, move 6", disembark and attack. Keeps them from being shot up on the way in, and also guarantees I can put them wherever they are most needed.

You can't assault after you disembark......wait, does the Stormraven have Assault Ramps?

wuestenfux wrote:

Red Comet wrote:Wuestenfux how is that good now? You have a lack of vehicle saturation so wouldn't it be easier to kill the vehicle portions or am I just thinking about this as if its 5th Edition?

Well, a wall of Predators and Vindicators is still a decent force for shooty support thanks to counting as fast vehicles. Good luck to strip off that many hull points. In 5th, it was rather easy to silence tank guns by inflicting glancing hits. But now the tanks simply ignore this.

That's true. Vehicles are now better short term. I'm going to have to see if a Hybrid list like what you are suggesting actually works. Everything I know about 40k is telling me no, but the vehicle rule changes could have changed things up more than I thought.

Praxiss wrote:

Horst wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:Yeah, transporting jump infantry in those strikes me as odd, although at least now you could conceivably get some sort of MSU build out of it (but it'd be insane and they'd be blown out of the sky unless you plan accordingly)

I'm probably going to put sanguinary guard + HQ in a stormraven, along with a dread, and hold them in reserve. Once they come in, fly like a foot away from the enemy with the raven, then next turn go hover, move 6", disembark and attack. Keeps them from being shot up on the way in, and also guarantees I can put them wherever they are most needed.

You can't assault after you disembark......wait, does the Stormraven have Assault Ramps?

Yes it does.

What does everyone think of LR this edition? Does the Storm Raven just make a better assault vehicle for DC and such?
Ravens just feel a bit fragile to me, especially since you'll want it to hover if its carrying people so the passengers wont die if it blows up.

Praxiss wrote:

Horst wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:Yeah, transporting jump infantry in those strikes me as odd, although at least now you could conceivably get some sort of MSU build out of it (but it'd be insane and they'd be blown out of the sky unless you plan accordingly)

I'm probably going to put sanguinary guard + HQ in a stormraven, along with a dread, and hold them in reserve. Once they come in, fly like a foot away from the enemy with the raven, then next turn go hover, move 6", disembark and attack. Keeps them from being shot up on the way in, and also guarantees I can put them wherever they are most needed.

You can't assault after you disembark......wait, does the Stormraven have Assault Ramps?

Well it has. How long will the assault move be, since SG is jump infantry?

Still 2D6, but jump packs let you re-roll (not sure if it is both dice or just one).

Plus if the Raven is in Hover mode it can fire it guns at BS4 to gie you some covering fire on the charge. Just make sure it does actualyl move in Hove otherwise it doesn't get its 5+ Jink save.

The raven in hover gives the guys inside a potential 24" threat radius... 6" move with the raven, 6" disembark, and up to 12" assault move.

I'm fine with this, because in 5th edition, you had at most a 12" move, then a 2" disembark, and a 6" assault. So, the new edition effectively grants us a potential 4" extra (and because we have a re-roll, most assaults won't likely be below 20" anyway).

In addition to this extra assault potential, the raven is now much less vulnerable on the way to the assault drop, can get to the drop point faster (almost always in 1 turn from an assault) and we get that extra I10 impact hit from using jump packs to assault.

You wouldn't be able to get there in Turn one as Flyers have to start in reserve...although i think DOA give +1 to reserves?

So your Raven would come in on Turn 2 on a 2+, move up to 36" (Zoom) - and still fire 4 weapons at full BS I think. Turn 3 - enter Hover, move 6", deploy jump pack nastiness another 6" - charge 2D6 with re-rolls.

That IS nasty!

Praxiss wrote:You wouldn't be able to get there in Turn one as Flyers have to start in reserve...although i think DOA give +1 to reserves?

So your Raven would come in on Turn 2 on a 2+, move up to 36" (Zoom) - and still fire 4 weapons at full BS I think. Turn 3 - enter Hover, move 6", deploy jump pack nastiness another 6" - charge 2D6 with re-rolls.

That IS nasty!

So the unit inside the SR can charge in round 3+, not earlier. But if it zooms down in round 2, the enemy can see where the mounted unit will disembark since the SR can only move 6'' which is almost nothing. I'm still not convinced of this tactics.

Praxiss wrote:You wouldn't be able to get there in Turn one as Flyers have to start in reserve...although i think DOA give +1 to reserves?

So your Raven would come in on Turn 2 on a 2+, move up to 36" (Zoom) - and still fire 4 weapons at full BS I think. Turn 3 - enter Hover, move 6", deploy jump pack nastiness another 6" - charge 2D6 with re-rolls.

That IS nasty!

DoA gives a reroll to reserves, but it doesn't apply to the Stormraven. You'd still come in Turn 2 on a 3+. Jump packers will come in on a 3+ with a re-roll, which is better than a 2+.

Sadly, the effectiveness of the Raven is really dependent on how much Skyfire the opponent has - if he's got Hydras, for example, your Raven will come in Turn 2, get blown out of the sky, and kill everyone on board.

Now that I've said that, though, you can still go Flat Out and then Evade for a 4+ cover save, so you might live through one turn of shooting. That also gets you all the way to where you need to be, even if you're playing the silly mission where you deploy on short table edges - five feet of movement is pretty crazy. Hmm... this might require some further exploration.

I'm not really seeing the appeal of DC, though. Sanguinary Guard are better, in my opinion (Elites vs Troops notwithstanding). The difference between a 2+ and a 3+ save is just too big in 6th to pass up, and jump pack troops are significantly more likely to make their charges. Giving the DC jump packs makes them way too expensive.

Tried out the following last night:

1x Stormraven
-Asscan
-Multimelta
-8x DC
-1x Reclusiarch
-1x DC Dread

1x Stormraven
-Asscan
-Multimelta
-5x Ass. Terms., 4 TH/SS, 1 LC

3x Razorbacks w/ 5 Assault Troops (dual pistols) inside
-1 with TL Las and 2 with Asscans


It worked pretty well. Stormravens came on turn 2 and 3 and spent the first turn zooming and taking out anything that could shoot them down. Multimeltas and Bloodstrike missiles are pretty effective at killing anything with skyfire. After one turn of that, they hovered into position and dropped their payloads, which assaulted out of the hatch. DC Dread was AWESOME. The extra attack off of rage gives 6 on the charge, which makes Blood Talons just plain silly. Blendered an entire tactical squad by himself. Once I had my assault troops on the ground, the Stormravens had Air Superiority, and just mowed down tanks and troops at will.

The razorbacks weren't great, but did a pretty effective job of running a screen until the storm ravens showed up. I would probably find a different way to incorporate troops into a dual storm raven list.

3x Razorbacks w/ 5 Assault Troops (dual pistols) inside
-1 with TL Las and 2 with Asscans

Looks pretty fragile when it comes to scoring (holding objectives).

Horst wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:Yeah, transporting jump infantry in those strikes me as odd, although at least now you could conceivably get some sort of MSU build out of it (but it'd be insane and they'd be blown out of the sky unless you plan accordingly)

I'm probably going to put sanguinary guard + HQ in a stormraven, along with a dread, and hold them in reserve. Once they come in, fly like a foot away from the enemy with the raven, then next turn go hover, move 6", disembark and attack. Keeps them from being shot up on the way in, and also guarantees I can put them wherever they are most needed.

Oh yes, I've done that. I guess I overlooked THAT jump infantry when I said it haha...

Stormravens are great, but in 6th the fact that all passengers suffer a S9 hit with no saves really needs to be weighed up. This may sound silly, infact no, it does sound silly but i found the best way to look at a stormraven is a 200 point disposable (the key word there) assault vehicle. you cannot rely on it to do anything after deployment. FACT. so if you have a strong enough list to cope when there down great.

You can say thats just got better because it can now zoom but it has to live to that stage and anybody who's any good will take it down quick. especially if it's full of d.c.

stormraven comes in from reserve, whatever turn. makes one zoom move forward and shoots everything. lets hope it works miracles cus you will need them. opponents turn he focuses heavy fire on ground heavys. then all the other less usefull stuff, rifles even pistols that are in range at the stormraven. there will be some 6's. if it's orks who are mostly bs5 it's a dream come true cus they now have a 50% chance to hit with plenty of rounds! the stormraven comes down, things are dead and even the dread is not safe now. DC dread will stand a better chance hoping for a low pen roll for the ignores crew stunned crew shaken.

i played an experienced ork player monday eve and they came down a treat for him on the turn they came in, even with the dive move which failed all the rolls (too many). this was our first 6th game but the change and the possibilitys were all to clear. 2dc and the dread survived 1 explosion. granted the dread lived, assaulted like crazy max distance and chewed every living ork off the objective but the raven was a waste.

i say think about who you play in your local area and what they use, think about if what your putting inside is worth losing and can you get it there alternative ways.

troops +dread + stormraven is the same as 20+ troops, a dread and 3 drop pods with a bit left i reacon and they all have to take a turn of fire too. at least it's shared

if your going to use the gunship side then sweet but as transport there are different angles to look at i reacon. 50 points more stick things into a LR C and deepstrike it infront of enemys. it still has to sit there for a turn taking fire but the fact that it can only be penned by high strength fire will cancel alot of that risk surely. plus it get's to shoot everything in it's turn

thunderlips wrote:Stormravens are great, but in 6th the fact that all passengers suffer a S9 hit with no saves really needs to be weighed up. This may sound silly, infact no, it does sound silly but i found the best way to look at a stormraven is a 200 point disposable (the key word there) assault vehicle. you cannot rely on it to do anything after deployment. FACT. so if you have a strong enough list to cope when there down great.

You can say thats just got better because it can now zoom but it has to live to that stage and anybody who's any good will take it down quick. especially if it's full of d.c.

I agree entirely. "Oh goody, Stormravens. Time to kill 2/3 of my opponent's army in 1 shooting phase!" Even if you kill your enemy's AA fire, if they have a few missile launchers they've still got a pretty decent chance to gun down the Stormraven too. The Land Raider's a decent idea, but it suffers the same problems it did in 5th Edition.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

thunderlips wrote:Stormravens are great, but in 6th the fact that all passengers suffer a S9 hit with no saves really needs to be weighed up. This may sound silly, infact no, it does sound silly but i found the best way to look at a stormraven is a 200 point disposable (the key word there) assault vehicle. you cannot rely on it to do anything after deployment. FACT. so if you have a strong enough list to cope when there down great.

You can say thats just got better because it can now zoom but it has to live to that stage and anybody who's any good will take it down quick. especially if it's full of d.c.

I agree entirely. "Oh goody, Stormravens. Time to kill 2/3 of my opponent's army in 1 shooting phase!" Even if you kill your enemy's AA fire, if they have a few missile launchers they've still got a pretty decent chance to gun down the Stormraven too. The Land Raider's a decent idea, but it suffers the same problems it did in 5th Edition.

Unless your opponent dedicates an INSANE amount of skyfire to shooting down the raven, I just don't see it happening.

1) if he has no skyfire, he's hitting on 6's.

2) Even if he has skyfire, almost all skyfire weapons are ap3 or higher (missiles, autocannons, etc)

3) AP3 weapons need a 6 on the damage charts to blow up a stormraven, and meltas aren't likely to penetrate them.

So... lets take a hydra as an example ( I think they have skyfire) You have a an average of 3 hits, thats 1/6 penetrate, 1/6 destroy, and 1/2 evade... so there is a 4% chance a hydra guns down a stormraven. I'm willing to take that risk. And thats from a unit dedicated to shooting down aircraft. If he REALLY has insane amounts of anti-air, and you don't think the raven will survive, just deep strike the cargo (the have jump pakcs anyway).

Not to mention, all the skyfire I've seen is only Str 7. That's the flakk missiles and the Hydra. So anything that hits needs a 5 to glance and a 6 to pen. Just beware the Aegis Defense Line with the 72" skyfire interceptor lascannon

sdavid86 wrote:Not to mention, all the skyfire I've seen is only Str 7. That's the flakk missiles and the Hydra. So anything that hits needs a 5 to glance and a 6 to pen. Just beware the Aegis Defense Line with the 72" skyfire interceptor lascannon

even then.. that lascannon needs a 3+ to hit, then a 4 to penetrate, then a 6 to blow me up, and I have at worst a 5+ cover save.

its not likely 1 lascannon will shoot down a stormraven, and those defense lascannons are at minimum 85 points each.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:I think Sternguard may be the new workhorses among my Blood Angels, backed by Tactical Squads and Devastators, with Assault Squads relegated to a QRF, and Vanguards sent deep to pursue targets hiding from my heavy weapons.

^^ This could be interesting...

All drop pod armies are legal (read page 36, it says any passengers don't count...) , and you'll have something on the field at the end of turn 1.

Sternguard with combi-plas could be sick... 24" range plasma after pin-point landing or using the special ammo on turn 1? Take a Sang Priest and a Librarian with them to give them added effect as needed.

Drop pod with raven support... hmm... lot of options.

Horst wrote:

sdavid86 wrote:Not to mention, all the skyfire I've seen is only Str 7. That's the flakk missiles and the Hydra. So anything that hits needs a 5 to glance and a 6 to pen. Just beware the Aegis Defense Line with the 72" skyfire interceptor lascannon

even then.. that lascannon needs a 3+ to hit, then a 4 to penetrate, then a 6 to blow me up, and I have at worst a 5+ cover save.

its not likely 1 lascannon will shoot down a stormraven, and those defense lascannons are at minimum 85 points each.

With AP2, a 5+ blows you up, yes?

I'm thinking I'll be running my Storm Raven either empty or with just dreadnought.
4 S8 AP1 shots and twin-linked lascannons and twin-linked assault cannon.
Everyone else will have their own transport; in a pinch the raven can pick up and relocate a squad.
I'm thinking it's going to play like a predator with 4 hunter killer missiles on it, that can double as air defense.

-Matt

The way I see it, stormraven is basically our only anti-air defense... everything else is either too inaccurate (auto/las predators), or too short ranged (TL assault cannons) to reliably shoot down transports.

I'm probably going to be taking 2 ravens in most games, for that reason alone. I need SOMETHING that can shoot down enemy planes, and str8 ap1 bloodstrikes are amazing for it.

So how do I field enough potent infantry for a DOA army (...without Sang Guard & Dante...)

Edit: DC - Never scoring but.. can they be Denial units??

If it is carrying a squad, Storm Raven could just come in on hover mode, flat out for 4+ Jinx save. Functioning just like how it used to last edition.

The one thing I hate about BA pod is that they only carry 10 people, so you cant carry a full squad plus characters.

Yeah, the DP is annoying although I usually just take an assault squad (and 2 furiosos each in DP's) so I can drop the furiosos on turn 1, and then drop the 3rd pod whenever, preferably where a priest can easily reach them and give them the Chalice bubble.

Horst wrote:

sdavid86 wrote:Not to mention, all the skyfire I've seen is only Str 7. That's the flakk missiles and the Hydra. So anything that hits needs a 5 to glance and a 6 to pen. Just beware the Aegis Defense Line with the 72" skyfire interceptor lascannon

even then.. that lascannon needs a 3+ to hit, then a 4 to penetrate, then a 6 to blow me up, and I have at worst a 5+ cover save.

its not likely 1 lascannon will shoot down a stormraven, and those defense lascannons are at minimum 85 points each.

I think you're also discounting people just stripping away the hull points to wreck it, which should be easier than blowing it up outright.

DC are denial units. They just aren't scoring units.

If the enemy has skyfire or massed firepower then simply use the storm raven as a gunship instead of a transport option.

I've been running Astorath with 5 DC in the gunship in 5th and now it's even better. The DC dread still works wonders against basic troops but suffers against more elite units now.

I plan on adding a couple long range razor backs to with las cannons or assault cannons to my DoA army in order to have some long range firepower in the back field that can hopefully bust open a tank or two. I may switch to a vindicator (if only I had one available).

I see tactics being very much on the spot decision rather than point and click in 6th edition. I originally played Tau and every game was planning and adapting. This is more how all armies are for 6th edition whereas 5th degenerated into I'll throw this death star at you and laugh.

rogueeyes wrote: 5th degenerated into I'll throw this death star at you and laugh.

I still have a sinking feeling people will still do it, but with wound allocation I can now feasibly try and knock into a deathstar and take out that which I desire the most to kill...