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Vaktathi wrote: Hrm, not quite accurate Lets not forget it took 100 Grey Knight Terminators to confront him, and the Captain died as well. No such force is mentioned in Draigo's entry.

No such force is mentioned, that's true. But I've made certain assumptions about the things that weren't mentioned. They were wearing armour. The fight was on a planet, in a rural area, during daylight. It was a major incursion, being met with a significant force of Grey Knights (hence the presence of a Primarch and the Supreme Grandmaster of the Grey Knights). Mortarion had taken a beating.

That's how I read all codex background material. Filling in the gaps with my own imagination. Doesn't everyone?

I don't think I've filled in any gaps with incongruous information, or in a way that clashes with established background.

LunaHound wrote:Kaldor, I just want to... confirm something.

You aren't trying to pull off an Inception right? like your dakka account is the Mary Sue character created by Kaldor Draigo in the codex which is the Mary Sue created from Matt Ward?

BlaxicanX wrote:"There was an army of Grey Knights fighting an army of Daemons" isn't the same thing as several dozen GK's simultaneously fighting Angron at the same time, with almost every single one of them dying except for like ten of them.

I wish he really had expanded that slot, it's like how in the Tyranid Codex Muegan Ra turned back an entire swarm from a splinter fleet by himself.

It's just something you'd expect to be expanded out.

BlaxicanX wrote:"There was an army of Grey Knights fighting an army of Daemons" isn't the same thing as several dozen GK's simultaneously fighting Angron at the same time, with almost every single one of them dying except for like ten of them.

But the battle with Angron was an army of Grey Knights fighting an army of Daemons. It was exactly the same thing, except Angron's bodyguard isn't two Marines, but 12 Bloodthirsters. And Angron is a badder dude than Mortarion.

To recap my earlier post in a more acceptable manner. Isn't Draigo actually in hell? He can't really change anything in the warp, it's eternal and immortal. He can burn Papa Nurgle's garden a million times but it will still be there as soon as he turns his back. A martial version of the Midas touch almost, Kaldor Draigo can grasp/achieve incredible victories as many times as he wants, but they're all hollow, meaningless within the warp. Reminds me of the punishment in Tartarous for gluttons, eternal hunger and thirst, with food and water just barely out of your reach.

Now for those who do have issue with Draigo, if his fluff is cast in this light, as a tragedy, does it become more palatable to you? To Draigo supporters, what would your take on this interpretation of the fluff be?

To be clear I like most GK fluff and am neutral on Draigo, the Bloodtide really irks me though, as indicated earlier in the thread.

Kaldor wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:"There was an army of Grey Knights fighting an army of Daemons" isn't the same thing as several dozen GK's simultaneously fighting Angron at the same time, with almost every single one of them dying except for like ten of them.

But the battle with Angron was an army of Grey Knights fighting an army of Daemons. It was exactly the same thing, except Angron's bodyguard isn't two Marines, but 12 Bloodthirsters. And Angron is a badder dude than Mortarion.

This. Draigo was field-promoted to Supreme Grand Master, which means the other Grand Masters were there as well. Such a force by far eclipses the one at Armageddon, and people STILL whine about Mortarion getting kicked out. The only time Draigo is doing something that actually matters is in real-space.

And I seem to remember some dude named Lysander and his prison break, coming back 100% pure and all that, yet that's totally fine fluff. Asdrubael Vect is the smartest guy ever, totally!

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:"There was an army of Grey Knights fighting an army of Daemons" isn't the same thing as several dozen GK's simultaneously fighting Angron at the same time, with almost every single one of them dying except for like ten of them.

I wish he really had expanded that slot, it's like how in the Tyranid Codex Muegan Ra turned back an entire swarm from a splinter fleet by himself.

It's just something you'd expect to be expanded out.

They did. The first Armageddon war was expanded upon in great detail in White Dwarf.

Kaldor, after skim reading this thread, I think this pic probably sums up your role in the thread..



To be honest, I think it's a mistake trying to defend much of logic behind some of the background in the codecies, because each one of them is trying to sell you that army as being 'the best thing ever'. And like you point out, not just the GK one, but also the IG (with its play on Rambo), Space Wolf and even the Space Marine codex for that matter are also home to OTT, mythical-legend style background elements.

It is obviously meant to be overblown, and not really an actual 'serious' reflection of the background (if such a thing is possible?), and you would argue that the BL books are the better avenue for a more solid and tangible realisation of the 40k universe.

How long was it Marneus Calgar held up the orcs at the pass for? A night and a day? Looking at this thread actually I'm amazed there hasn't been an argument over whether that constituted 12 or 24 hours, with serious discussions about the width of the pass in metres.

Although, I am personally looking forward to how the next Chaos Codex can trump Draigo's exploits. Perhaps some kind of new chaos marine character going backwards in time and killing the Emperor when he was a child (although.. what if the Imperium could send someone back as well.. as a guardian for him?).. It's all just a bit of fun, and obviously not meant to be taken as an actual recording of events of the kind you would find in a Forge World book, Black Library novel or similar.

Its not exactly helping the point of using c:sm material to defend bad writing. After all, it too is a Matt Ward codex. His fanboyish approach is found in all of his writing. Calgar and Lysander included.

Another one that causes a great need for face palming IMO is the Sanguinor fluff. His "Here I come to save the day!" approach is just laughable the way its handled.

Kaldor wrote:

Backfire wrote:Draigo is just WAY over the top. First thing he did was to carve his predecessors name to Daemon Primarch's heart. A frigging' DAEMON PRIMARCH.

And? So what. A single Grey Knight captain took on a defeated Angron in the first war for Armageddon.

Grey Knights are like kryptonite for Daemons.

Way I figure it, it wasn't a case of Draigo and Geronitan going for a walk in the park, and running into Mortarion and his Deathshroud. There was obviously some kind of major battle going on, and no doubt many other Grey Knights involved. Maybe Draigo dealt the killing blow, but Mortarion was no doubt already weakened by his duel with Supreme Grandmaster Geronitan, and whatever else had happened during the battle up to that point.

The thing that gets me is he supposedly destroys the Inevitable City and burns down the Garden of Nurgle. While he's at it, why not wipe out the 13th Black Crusade, Kill Abbadon and raise the Emperor from the dead?

Grimtuff wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:"There was an army of Grey Knights fighting an army of Daemons" isn't the same thing as several dozen GK's simultaneously fighting Angron at the same time, with almost every single one of them dying except for like ten of them.

I wish he really had expanded that slot, it's like how in the Tyranid Codex Muegan Ra turned back an entire swarm from a splinter fleet by himself.

It's just something you'd expect to be expanded out.

They did. The first Armageddon war was expanded upon in great detail in White Dwarf.

Not that one, the fight that led to the death of the previous Supreme Grandmaster.

I know how the Angron battle goes, and it was indeed awesome.

The thing that gets me is he supposedly destroys the Inevitable City and burns down the Garden of Nurgle.

He brought a gate down on the head of a Lord of Change, that is not the destruction of the Inevitable City by a longshot.

And he set it aflame, it never said he destroyed the whole thing, just a part of it. Besides nurgle would enjoy it, the rot and burning ashes brings about decay and slow death, and later on being able to be reused.

Could people actually read it for once? I know he does some really impossible things, but at least get your accusations about the fluff right. Sure it still is written badly (Show, don't tell!), but parts that people parrot is simply from those annoying folk at /TG/ without ever checking the validity of.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Backfire wrote:Draigo is just WAY over the top. First thing he did was to carve his predecessors name to Daemon Primarch's heart. A frigging' DAEMON PRIMARCH.

And? So what. A single Grey Knight captain took on a defeated Angron in the first war for Armageddon.

Grey Knights are like kryptonite for Daemons.

Way I figure it, it wasn't a case of Draigo and Geronitan going for a walk in the park, and running into Mortarion and his Deathshroud. There was obviously some kind of major battle going on, and no doubt many other Grey Knights involved. Maybe Draigo dealt the killing blow, but Mortarion was no doubt already weakened by his duel with Supreme Grandmaster Geronitan, and whatever else had happened during the battle up to that point.

The thing that gets me is he supposedly destroys the Inevitable City and burns down the Garden of Nurgle. While he's at it, why not wipe out the 13th Black Crusade, Kill Abbadon and raise the Emperor from the dead?

And all of his exploits were unmade. Why do people always ignore the part where it's completely pointless?

Kaldor wrote:

LordOfTheSloths wrote:The entire concept of GK as a stand-alone army is just plain wrong (let alone their game-busting OTT rules). They should never have been separated from Ordo Malleus. And nothing else need be said about the utter hell-spawn abomination that is the GK fluff.

Um, they haven't been separated from the Ordo Malleus. Where did you get that from?

They should have remained as part of a Daemonhunters Codex.

Kaldor wrote:
And leaving Draigo aside, what is so bad about their background?

You have a habit of asking questions that you already know the answers to.

LordOfTheSloths wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

LordOfTheSloths wrote:The entire concept of GK as a stand-alone army is just plain wrong (let alone their game-busting OTT rules). They should never have been separated from Ordo Malleus. And nothing else need be said about the utter hell-spawn abomination that is the GK fluff.

Um, they haven't been separated from the Ordo Malleus. Where did you get that from?

They should have remained as part of a Daemonhunters Codex.

Kaldor wrote:
And leaving Draigo aside, what is so bad about their background?

You have a habit of asking questions that you already know the answers to.

Then I'll ask: what's your problem with the Grey Knights background?

I don't really enjoy the part on purifiers. If no GK has ever fallen, and they are all ultra pure, why do they need an additional organization devoted to being uncorruptable? It seems silly to have a force of perfect, holy knights, but then sone of them are way purer(?) than others? How can you be more pure than people that have never succumbed to any kind of temptation? And their leader is even more incorruptible? The book spends a lot of time saying that grey knights are totally without flaw. But it then goes on to give countless examples where they aren't without flaw, and how some are even more without flaw than others. If no grey knight has ever fallen, then how do they know that only Crowe can wield the blade of antwyr if they haven't had anyone corrupted by it? Why is Crowe so amazing, and the blade so evil if every single brotherhood champion of the purifiers has handled it without issues?

And the paladin's initiation doesn't make much sense either. So, no grey knight has ever fallen, but the first two tasks of the paladin are to prove just how driven and incorruptible he is, then has every grey knight attempting to become a paladin passed these tests? Why are the haunted tomes beneath mount anarch and the unsleeping evil of the dread tomb abbiallach so terrible, if they haven't managed to corrupt any grey knights yet? There is a lot of pointless names being thrown around as well. Why are those caverns below mt. Anarch so evil? What's going on that makes it make people lose their purpose? Why the hell should I care? The ornate, grandiose naming means nothing to me if you don't explain anything. It then goes on to tell me that there are 4 more super-hard-ultra-evil-death-dealing quests to go on, but I'm not gunna tell you what they are. What? If you aren't going to talk about them, why even have them? Why not just have 4 quests, and talk about all of them, rather than saying there are 8, but then that your not going to tell me about half of them because you couldn't think up 4 more ridiculous, OTT quests with pointless, crazy names of terrible locations wih no explanation.

Then, why does Draigo make paladins troops? Ok, yeah, he's the supreme grandmaster who has that authority, but he only shows up on special occasions to help out. So how does he organize all the paladins to come with him if he's suppose to just appear mid-battle? Does he show up beforehand to gather them up and take them into battle? Or do the grandmasters just take a gakload of paladins and hope he shows up to direct them? Do groups of paladins in large numbers attract Draigo from the warp like a light attracts a fly?

EDIT: breaking up wall of text.
EDIT: typos.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Backfire wrote:Draigo is just WAY over the top. First thing he did was to carve his predecessors name to Daemon Primarch's heart. A frigging' DAEMON PRIMARCH.

And? So what. A single Grey Knight captain took on a defeated Angron in the first war for Armageddon.

Grey Knights are like kryptonite for Daemons.

Way I figure it, it wasn't a case of Draigo and Geronitan going for a walk in the park, and running into Mortarion and his Deathshroud. There was obviously some kind of major battle going on, and no doubt many other Grey Knights involved. Maybe Draigo dealt the killing blow, but Mortarion was no doubt already weakened by his duel with Supreme Grandmaster Geronitan, and whatever else had happened during the battle up to that point.

The thing that gets me is he supposedly destroys the Inevitable City and burns down the Garden of Nurgle. While he's at it, why not wipe out the 13th Black Crusade, Kill Abbadon and raise the Emperor from the dead?

And all of his exploits were unmade. Why do people always ignore the part where it's completely pointless?

Probably because it was slotted in at the end with the same enthusiasm as 'but then he woke up and it was all a dream'. The fact that the gods can repair the damage Draigo does doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't have to considering they could summon an infinite number of daemons to attack him from more directions than his mind could comprehend if they felt like it. He's in a realm that the mortal mind has repeatedly been said to be unable to comprehend, where time and space are meaningless outside of the shields that people create when they enter it. Even supposing that he was strong enough to hold a shield that forced daemons to take physical form to attack him, numbers alone should see him ripped apart. He's still a mortal, and his stamina is not infinite, he would eventually collapse from exhaustion and be ripped apart, get stabbed in the back and get ripped apart or make a mistake and get ripped apart.

Kaldor wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:And by saying his writing was subpar, I mean this; would you read it if it wasn't part of 40k? Say there's no other 40k books, no game system and no huge Internet debate about him, would you actually read and enjoy reading his work?

Well... I don't know.

More importantly, (draigo and bloodtide aside) would he be any less readable than any of the other codex writers?

The very first 40k books were actually so well written that they managed to convince people to buy ludicrously overpriced models they'd never heard of before and assorted modeling supplies.

To be fair, 40k originally wasn't that expensive of a game, you could get 20 orks for $10 and that'd be about all you needed for a game.

loota boy wrote:I don't really enjoy the part on purifiers. If no GK has ever fallen, and they are all ultra pure, why do they need an additional organization devoted to being uncorruptable? It seems silly to have a force of perfect, holy knights, but then sone of them are way purer(?) than others?

Think of it as fat people on a diet. They all have to eat healthy salad, and avoid the temptation of yummy pizza.

For some, it's a constant struggle. Every day the pizza tempts them, and it takes a conscious and continuous effort of will to resist.

For others, the pizza may as well not even be there. They are not tempted, not even a little bit, and never even waste their time thinking about it.

That's the difference between regular Grey Knights and Purifiers.

Durza wrote:The fact that the gods can repair the damage Draigo does doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't have to considering they could summon an infinite number of daemons to attack him from more directions than his mind could comprehend if they felt like it.

Why would the Chaos Gods want to break this marvelous new toy? How much more interesting to keep him repeating the same tasks over and over, earning the same victories over and over, and see how long he can go on until his spirit breaks? How many times can one man do the same thing, for no reward, before he finally gives up? Would he then be the first Grey Knight to fall to Chaos? The warp is their playground. It's not a case of him running around in there, and they can't stop him. He's trapped in there, because they want him to be.

Kaldor wrote:

loota boy wrote:I don't really enjoy the part on purifiers. If no GK has ever fallen, and they are all ultra pure, why do they need an additional organization devoted to being uncorruptable? It seems silly to have a force of perfect, holy knights, but then sone of them are way purer(?) than others?

Think of it as fat people on a diet. They all have to eat healthy salad, and avoid the temptation of yummy pizza.

For some, it's a constant struggle. Every day the pizza tempts them, and it takes a conscious and continuous effort of will to resist.

For others, the pizza may as well not even be there. They are not tempted, not even a little bit, and never even waste their time thinking about it.

That's the difference between regular Grey Knights and Purifiers.

Durza wrote:The fact that the gods can repair the damage Draigo does doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't have to considering they could summon an infinite number of daemons to attack him from more directions than his mind could comprehend if they felt like it.

Why would the Chaos Gods want to break this marvelous new toy? How much more interesting to keep him repeating the same tasks over and over, earning the same victories over and over, and see how long he can go on until his spirit breaks? How many times can one man do the same thing, for no reward, before he finally gives up? Would he then be the first Grey Knight to fall to Chaos? The warp is their playground. It's not a case of him running around in there, and they can't stop him. He's trapped in there, because they want him to be.

If I were a Chaos god, I'd end up poking him with a stick. See, I'd use a stick, and not my finger, because it's like poking a cat. When they decide to bite, they bite the stick, not your finger. ^_^

I actually love the draigo fluff if it was written better. If there was more emphasis on his hopelessness and the "grimdark" of his situation. I look at draigo in a tragic light. Like Kaldor said he very well could become the first GK to fall to chaos. He is trapped for eternity in a hell where his nothing he does has any effect at all. Who cares if he killed a keeper of secrets and stabbed some nurglings. Hell a keeper of secrets probably wants to be killed by draigo. You mean they have a way of experiencing the ultimate sensation without being banished for hundreds of years?

On a slightly more comical note I can imagine a daemonette following draigo around with bashful eyes peeking around the corner. Like a crazy stalker who just wants draigos love.

The only part about Draigo I dislike is the whole "carved a name in mortarians heart". I wouldn't care if it was suppose to be a symbolic meaning. Like good ol morty will always remember his defeat. But they way it is written comes across as he literally held down a daemon prince primarch and performed open heart surgery and intricately wrote down his predecessors name in cursive. A previous GM being beaten and his protege managing to beat the wounded killer is one thing. This is something completely different that just rubs me the wrong way. And I don't even like Mortarian.

Ouside of that I agree the rest of the book comes across to me as bad fan fiction. "we are the best of the best of the best who are super secret so no one knows about us but everyone knows we are the best. And within our ranks we have people who are even better than the best of the best of the best!

And of course as a sisters player I was completely rubbed the wrong way by that whole incident. Completely uncorruptable grey knights have to slaughter children and nuns to protect themselves from...corruption?

The grey knights in my eyes are heretics, their entire organization has fallen they just don't realize it yet and are deluding themselves into thinking no one has fallen. They can keep consorting with the filthy xeno and witch for all I care. Now if only I didn't have to use their crumy codex to get back my ordo hereticus inquisitor and assassin for my witch hunters.

.We need an artsy type to illustrate draigo in the warp with his daemonette fan girl/stalker.

Incredulous Daemontte (ID): "Why do you keep following that dumb mortal?"
Stalker Daemontte (SD): *squeal* "Oh shush he might hear you!"
ID: "No really why?"
(SD): "Well he's brave and handsome,but there's such a tragic air about him... you just want to snuggle him and tell him it'll be okay while corrupting him to Slaneesh's will!"
ID: "....."
SD: *fangirl squeals again* "Look! He just diced that Bloodthirster in to pieces! Isn't he great!?"
ID: "So what drugs are you on exactly?"

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
ID: "So what drugs are you not on?"

Fixed that for you!

To me something what Irks in Wards codexes (I have BA and GK codexes) mostly in GK codex is that they supposedly be so incorruptable, pure holier-than-you and all the fluff is that inquisition hates and wants to purge all xenos and daemonic tains, yet you get GK jokaero weaponsmiths, not even abhumans but pure filthy xenos that should be cleansed with promethium especially when you work in ranks of inquisators and such that use exterminatus orders to cleanse planes wwith chaos tains and yet they use daemon blades and daemonic hosts as weapons?

thejamppa wrote:To me something what Irks in Wards codexes (I have BA and GK codexes) mostly in GK codex is that they supposedly be so incorruptable, pure holier-than-you and all the fluff is that inquisition hates and wants to purge all xenos and daemonic tains, yet you get GK jokaero weaponsmiths, not even abhumans but pure filthy xenos that should be cleansed with promethium especially when you work in ranks of inquisators and such that use exterminatus orders to cleanse planes wwith chaos tains and yet they use daemon blades and daemonic hosts as weapons?

Not Xenos, they're not self-aware. Would you demand that all dogs be exterminated as xenos?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

thejamppa wrote:To me something what Irks in Wards codexes (I have BA and GK codexes) mostly in GK codex is that they supposedly be so incorruptable, pure holier-than-you and all the fluff is that inquisition hates and wants to purge all xenos and daemonic tains, yet you get GK jokaero weaponsmiths, not even abhumans but pure filthy xenos that should be cleansed with promethium especially when you work in ranks of inquisators and such that use exterminatus orders to cleanse planes wwith chaos tains and yet they use daemon blades and daemonic hosts as weapons?

Not Xenos, they're not self-aware. Would you demand that all dogs be exterminated as xenos?

So because aliens Jokaeros happen to look like orangatan which is an earth animal, its safe?

wow Tzeentch must have an easy time dealing with GK then...

LunaHound wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

thejamppa wrote:To me something what Irks in Wards codexes (I have BA and GK codexes) mostly in GK codex is that they supposedly be so incorruptable, pure holier-than-you and all the fluff is that inquisition hates and wants to purge all xenos and daemonic tains, yet you get GK jokaero weaponsmiths, not even abhumans but pure filthy xenos that should be cleansed with promethium especially when you work in ranks of inquisators and such that use exterminatus orders to cleanse planes wwith chaos tains and yet they use daemon blades and daemonic hosts as weapons?

Not Xenos, they're not self-aware. Would you demand that all dogs be exterminated as xenos?

So because aliens Jokaeros happen to look like orangatan which is an earth animal, its safe?

wow Tzeentch must have an easy time dealing with GK then...

Regardless, they're not Mat Ward's invention and anyone who thinks so needs to get a friggin' clue.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

thejamppa wrote:To me something what Irks in Wards codexes (I have BA and GK codexes) mostly in GK codex is that they supposedly be so incorruptable, pure holier-than-you and all the fluff is that inquisition hates and wants to purge all xenos and daemonic tains, yet you get GK jokaero weaponsmiths, not even abhumans but pure filthy xenos that should be cleansed with promethium especially when you work in ranks of inquisators and such that use exterminatus orders to cleanse planes wwith chaos tains and yet they use daemon blades and daemonic hosts as weapons?

Not Xenos, they're not self-aware. Would you demand that all dogs be exterminated as xenos?

So because aliens Jokaeros happen to look like orangatan which is an earth animal, its safe?

wow Tzeentch must have an easy time dealing with GK then...

Regardless, they're not Mat Ward's invention and anyone who thinks so needs to get a friggin' clue.

I think you probably missed reading my post earlier somewhere.

It doesnt matter whether GW or Mattward wrote the freaking thing. Lets say GW did, but GW is such a broad name as there
are so many employees and such a long history.

However, we add a name "Mattward" we can easily narrow down in detail to which of the mess up it is.

Simple enough right?

I think he's all right and he has a nice beard

LunaHound wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

thejamppa wrote:To me something what Irks in Wards codexes (I have BA and GK codexes) mostly in GK codex is that they supposedly be so incorruptable, pure holier-than-you and all the fluff is that inquisition hates and wants to purge all xenos and daemonic tains, yet you get GK jokaero weaponsmiths, not even abhumans but pure filthy xenos that should be cleansed with promethium especially when you work in ranks of inquisators and such that use exterminatus orders to cleanse planes wwith chaos tains and yet they use daemon blades and daemonic hosts as weapons?

Not Xenos, they're not self-aware. Would you demand that all dogs be exterminated as xenos?

So because aliens Jokaeros happen to look like orangatan which is an earth animal, its safe?

wow Tzeentch must have an easy time dealing with GK then...

Regardless, they're not Mat Ward's invention and anyone who thinks so needs to get a friggin' clue.

I think you probably missed reading my post earlier somewhere.

It doesnt matter whether GW or Mattward wrote the freaking thing. Lets say GW did, but GW is such a broad name as there
are so many employees and such a long history.

However, we add a name "Mattward" we can easily narrow down in detail to which of the mess up it is.

Simple enough right?

They've been around since Rogue Trader. Hence the get a clue comment.

And? some of us havnt played in the Rogue Trader and GK hasnt been out till like last year. And Jokaeros existing since Rogue Traders makes my point any more invalid how?

So that is an excuse to be rude and condescending ?

Alright so be it.