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 FlingitNow wrote:
So if i dwa i auto go first and neither player can generate psychic powers? As that is the ONLY way i cam be limited by the 50% rule.

Really? Why?

Here's the order guys:

1) roll warlord traits
2) roll psychic powers
3) roll off for who goes first
4) player A deploys his forces and may put up to 50% in reserve.
5) player B deploys his forces and may put up to 50%in reserve.

So for the 50% clause to effect dwa it must be part of 4 or 5 as it occurs immediately after 1 which means we miss out those intermediate steps. How do you reconcile that with your interpretation?
.
reserve

All of those steps are in the deployment part of the game. As you are in the process of deploying your army once you've rolled your warlord stat DWA doesn't mess with this process. Sorry to burst that bubble.

It is all part of deployment but it is not all part of deploying.g your army. You deploying your army occurs after the roll off for who deploys first and potentially after your opponent deploys and only when deploying your army are you bound by the 50% rule.

 jegsar wrote:
They don't need to start the game in reserves though.. so it's breaking the rule i pointed out after you told me when the game starts.

Your conclusion leads to never being able to place any unit in reserve that is not already in reserve at the start of the game.

Jump troops, any termies unit, outflankers etc could make use of these abilities because the game has already started and you cannot place units in reserve once the game has begun.

I said that I "guess" and that I honestly do not have an exact answer for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The game has to have order to it otherwise it is unplayable.

You can't roll for W.Traits and then decide your army list or roll to see who goes first and then place objectives and terrain.

Doing so leads to one player having an advantage over the other.

This game is structured in such a way as to try to give each player a fair chance.

The "timing" of events in the prep'ing of the game have meaning.
"Immediately after determining Warlord Traits..." and the fact that you have now bound those units to DS is so that in the event, you go second and after you see how your opponent sets up his forces you then can't say, "oh I changed my mind" and these units will walk on over here (where it is tactically advantages to me )

That is it for me. I have no more to say on the matter. If I managed to convince anyone then cool, if not then also cool.

 FlingitNow wrote:
It is all part of deployment but it is not all part of deploying.g your army. You deploying your army occurs after the roll off for who deploys first and potentially after your opponent deploys and only when deploying your army are you bound by the 50% rule.

The roll off is part of deploying forces, you should see that as it's the name of the heading it is under on page 121.
Since you switch army and forces all the time and GW do too, the restriction in the reserves applies THROUGHOUT the process of deploying forces(or armies) which includes the roll off for 1st turn.
If you have any other ideas about how to circumvent deployment and reserves please bring them forth cos these old ones are getting a bit tiresome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

40k-noob wrote:

The "timing" of events in the prep'ing of the game have meaning.
"Immediately after determining Warlord Traits..." and the fact that you have now bound those units to DS is so that in the event, you go second and after you see how your opponent sets up his forces you then can't say, "oh I changed my mind" and these units will walk on over here (where it is tactically advantages to me )

That is it for me. I have no more to say on the matter. If I managed to convince anyone then cool, if not then also cool.

So you're saying that because you put a unit in reserves you deserve to put 100% in because you cannot change your mind in this case? Have you ever thought that it might be a balancing move on GW's part to ensure that you cannot drop a massive load of terminaters 1st turn on top of the enemy lines and use their nifty new rule to decimate them?
How is what you're describing any different from anyone that goes 1st and places units in reserves? All reserve armies are dead deal with it. Everyone else has by either using the reserve methods available to them or by making a new list.

40k-noob wrote:
The Codex explicitly gives the player permission to declare any unit that is "entirely composed of models that have both this special rule and Terminator armour can choose to make a Deathwing Assault."

Is declaring DWA a choice?

The player then proceeds to "Deploy Forces" but finds that his army are all DS'ing automatically.

So the choice isn't made during Deployment?

Because, the DWA declaration takes place before the player has to "deploy Forces" is the sole reason this is valid.

You keep saying DWA creates a step before Deploy Forces. I'm still not seeing that.

You've made a choice during Deployment to not deploy more than 50% of your army. Agreed?
Page 124 in the BRB says this is illegal.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

The "timing" of events in the prep'ing of the game have meaning.
"Immediately after determining Warlord Traits..." and the fact that you have now bound those units to DS is so that in the event, you go second and after you see how your opponent sets up his forces you then can't say, "oh I changed my mind" and these units will walk on over here (where it is tactically advantages to me )

That is it for me. I have no more to say on the matter. If I managed to convince anyone then cool, if not then also cool.

So you're saying that because you put a unit in reserves you deserve to 100% in because you cannot change your mind in this case?
How is what you're describing any different from anyone that goes 1st and places units in reserves? All reserve armies are dead deal with it. Everyone else has by either using the reserve methods available to them or by making a new list.

Not, "because I put i t in reserve" but because those units were put in reserve before you deploy forces, i.e. in between "Warlord Traits" and "Deploy Forces" as defined by the rulebook.

Since you must "determine reserves" as part of the "Deploy Forces" process, DWA'ing units have to DS because of their special rule and so MUST start in reserve, and thereby are "ignored" for the purposes of determining which units start on the table and which start in reserve.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
The Codex explicitly gives the player permission to declare any unit that is "entirely composed of models that have both this special rule and Terminator armour can choose to make a Deathwing Assault."
Is declaring DWA a choice?

Yes it is a choice.

rigeld2 wrote:

The player then proceeds to "Deploy Forces" but finds that his army are all DS'ing automatically.

So the choice isn't made during Deployment?

Because, the DWA declaration takes place before the player has to "deploy Forces" is the sole reason this is valid.

The rules say that you roll for warlord before you deploy and later clarifies to say deploy forces. Once you've rolled for the warlord traits you are deploying forces simple as.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The rules say that you roll for warlord before you deploy and later clarifies to say deploy forces. Once you've rolled for the warlord traits you are deploying forces simple as.

Where does it say that?

"Before either player deploys, blah blah warlord trait. This is done now blah blah warlord trait subsequent deployment of their forces."
It's that bit above deploy forces on page 121.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
"Before either player deploys, blah blah warlord trait. This is done now blah blah warlord trait subsequent deployment of their forces."
It's that bit above deploy forces on page 121.

That is the Warlord Traits process.
DWA declaration happens immediately after that step.
Then you proceed to "Deploy Forces" during which, you also determine reserves.

Actually nothing in the DWA disagrees with my statement, all it does is ensure that it happens before you roll the dice for first turn in the deploy forces section of deployment.

After Warlord trait comes deploy forces, nothing in DWA stops or slows this or creates another step.
In Deploy Forces, you DWA, then roll off for first turn and deploy. Throughout deploy forces you are subject to the 50% rule. Hell I'm going to be adventurous and say that cos the didn't capitalise the deploy forces in the reserves section they could easily be talking about the process in general and not the specific section rendering the 50% rule in effect from the beginning of Deployment.

It also appears you don't follow the thread, I said that everything after you roll the dice for warlord is deploy forces, you asked where I gave the gist of the passage and it's location. You correctly identified the paragraph but didn't follow any of what was said or acknowledge it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
40k -no, it does not mean your entire force could be in reserves, as it states half your FORCE may go into reserve. Unless you are claiming that their presence in reserves makes them not part of your force, you are still limited by the requirement to not reserve more than 50% of your force.

Also, 3 page thread about this, not too far down.

Codex overrules rulebook

 captain collius wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
40k -no, it does not mean your entire force could be in reserves, as it states half your FORCE may go into reserve. Unless you are claiming that their presence in reserves makes them not part of your force, you are still limited by the requirement to not reserve more than 50% of your force.

Also, 3 page thread about this, not too far down.

Codex overrules rulebook

Wow that clears everything up, we were totally unaware of that rule...

If you have something useful to contribute, we would love to hear from you.

Remember that Codex overrules rulebook If there is a conflict.

The DWA rules do not say they all must be held in reserve, therefore the codex is not in conflict with the BRB and only 50% can be put in reserves.

 captain collius wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
40k -no, it does not mean your entire force could be in reserves, as it states half your FORCE may go into reserve. Unless you are claiming that their presence in reserves makes them not part of your force, you are still limited by the requirement to not reserve more than 50% of your force.

Also, 3 page thread about this, not too far down.

Codex overrules rulebook when there is a conflict

Fixed that for you.
There is no specific conflict between the rulebook and the deathwing assault rule.

Thank you for the insightful comment otherwise, that had so not been covered in page 1 of this thread and shown to be lacking.

Wait, I think 40k might be onto something here. I'm gonna give my autarch wings, take some swooping hawks, rangers, striking scorpions, and guardians. If my opponent deploys first, I can just declare that everything except for the guardians are outflanking/deep striking. Now when I deploy, I can reserve my whole army, because everything except the one unit of guardians Must now start in reserve.

It's simple enough.

There are TWO criterias for exemption to the 50% rule

#1 Flyers

#2 Transports with embarked units where said dedicated transport is NOT allowed to start on the table. (Drop pods)

The DWA does not match any of those criterias

40K is a permissive ruleset. If you do not match the criterias you need explicit permission to overrule rulebook.

There is no explicit permission anywhere or reference to DWA bypassing the 50% rule.

Nos, why did you decide "deployment" means the exact same thing as "deploying your army?" You keep refuting the timing issue that has been raised solely on the assumption that "deployment" = "deploying your army."

That assumption is easily disproved, as when your opponent is "deploying their army," during deployment, you are not able to "deploy your army" until they are done. "Deploying your army" is a step of "deployment".

Deploying armies is part of deployment. The warlord trait section says what happens after you roll the dice for the trait.
That places the DWA choice in the deploy army section of deployment.

Before deploying your army, you each roll off to determine who deploys their army first. Dwa happens before the roll off to determine who deploys their army first.

No rolling and deployment of troops are the same section of the rules. Just before you roll for turn order, you do dwa.
Is that not after the warlord trait has been rolled?

Liturgies, you missed the point I was (perhaps poorly) trying to make. Even if dwa is in the "deploy forces" part of the rules (which it's not a phase like the movement phase) dwa is still before you "deploy your army" and both players do not "deploy their armies" immediately in the "deploy forces" section, they roll off and then take turns "deploying their army."

Ok Devian, I follow now.

The deploying forces and deploying army are interchangeable, GW are loose with their language in many respects.
I contest that the 50% rule comes into effect the instant the warlord trait is rolled for.

That is how I read it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree it's not a phase but it is a heading in the rules and as such it has some bearing on this discussion.

 DeathReaper wrote:


The DWA rules do not say they all must be held in reserve, therefore the codex is not in conflict with the BRB and only 50% can be put in reserves.

This... this... TEN THOUSAND TIMES THIS!!!

I don't even understand why people are trying to debate this. You place a model in terminator armor in reserve same as you would any other model. Deathwing Assault simply lets you declare that they're arriving via this special rule and make a secret note of when it's happening.

I'm a DA player myself and I never even considered this as a possibility. Read it once, clearly, it says nothing about them counting as anything but normal reserves.

Liturgies, I disagree that "deploy your army" (player specific) and "deploy forces" (heading for both players) are interchangeable. While your enemy is deploying their army, and you have not yet, your units are neither deployed or in reserve, and you can not declare them one way or another until your turn to deploy your army comes up. If the 2 were interchangeable then you could deploy forces in the middle of the enemies deployment of their army.

Edit: From, bring a da player or not has no bearing. Dwa is not done at the same time as when you "deploy your army." The reserve restriction is only in place when deploying your army.

If you reserve half an eldar army, then after deploying your army is done you later put another unit in reserve, you will have more than 50% in reserve, but it doesn't mater because the restriction is only when "deploying your army."

"when you deploy your army" is during the deploy forces section. Sorry I should have made that clearer.

When deploying your forces isn't just the physical placing of the models on the board, it's the roll off and all the other piddling crap in there too.

Maybe that is RAI a little but it offers no outliers to the rules.

This argument is moot anyways. Play the game how you and your opponent agree too. If at a tourney ask the TO what they will allow. All these other people's opinions mean jack (unless they are one of the two aforementioned people). We can all agree that GW is HORRIBLE at rules writing and editing. I, for one, see NO in game advantage for either side of this argument. This thread and the one about the TH/SS Termies taking a CML have devolved into flame wars. The side that is for the all reserve has presented a well thought out and logical argument, the opposition has, for the most part, flamed and disregarded the other sides points. If I were to decide based on arguments presented in this post I would side with the "They can all DWA" half of the argument. They are more articulate and have well thought out points. I did not say I agree or disagree with them, simply that they have a more compelling argument. I play DW but I run them with RW so the all DWA never entered my mind.

About the Cyclone termies with TH/SS I'm just mad that apparently this has been a problem since 4th and GW STILL hasn't released an FAQ for it...

If you do something immediately after player A's assault phase is that the same as at the start of player B's turn? Id say no the 50% crowd hinge their argument on the answer being yes if(and even then they still have a timing issue that requires both players to declare reserves at the same time).

Dwa is not placing your units in reserve when deploying.g your army. It is something different that occurs before you roll off to who deploys first. The reserves cap is therefore irrelevant. This breaks the usual order of doing things but is a risk because you

 FlingitNow wrote:
If you do something immediately after player A's assault phase is that the same as at the start of player B's turn? Id say no

So wait, there is a step between the end of Player A's assault phase and Blayer B's Movement phase? Can you give me a page that shows this?

 Happyjew wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
If you do something immediately after player A's assault phase is that the same as at the start of player B's turn? Id say no

So wait, there is a step between the end of Player A's assault phase and Blayer B's Movement phase? Can you give me a page that shows this?

I always thought there were things mandated to happen at the end of the assault phase and others that happen at the start of the movement phase or amy I insane?