Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

people complaining about prices... that is just silly... GW prices have inlfated at a slower rate then bottles of pop...

its more money to buy a pizza + 6 pack of beer then most of my model boxes (about 50$) guess which one lasts longer? I still have 14+ year old models that I still use on the table.

when I ski, I dont complain that I had to spend 500$ on skis and still have to pay 100+ for lift passes or 50$ on gas to drive to the mountains

when I buy a blank peice of dencet canvass to paint, it costs 10-50$ for a decent one depending on size...

when I go on a fishing trip, it costs 20$ for bait and snacks/misc, 20-30$ for gas each time...


I do however, agree that GW needs to be much more involved with rules/balance... I was REALLY hopeful that their FAQ updates would be every month or so... and really, its just plain LAZY/STUPID in the times of the internet, to NOT answer 5 FAQ questions per codex every 8 weeks or so... such a cheap way to increase the fun that people have and stop player burn out due to arguing.

Companies like Discount Games Store and other online merchandisers make it really hard to justify paying GW prices.

I recently got my codex, brand new, unopened and untouched, for $10 less that list price, shipping included. I also got me a 6th ed Tactical Squad for the same savings.

Why on earth would I allow GW to charge me that extra? Especially since they seem so able to provide retailers with price cuts that allow them to offer the product at such a reduced rate. I just don't see why I'm paying so much more to grab the item off the shelf myself, or have GW ship it to me.

You know, I haven't been playing this game for near as long as some, but I'm a pretty smart guy and it doesn't take much to do some investigating and it seems to me that the only thing keeping GW afloat right now is us, the consumer. Sure GW doesn't listen to us or probably even care what we have to say, but we all still keep buying the models and the books don't we?

What the hell pizza and beer are you buying for $50? I can get the best pizza in Cleveland Delivered, with a craft beer six pack, for about $35 plus tip!

Why are people comparing GW prices to other hobbies?

They're two unrelated things. If you're going to make comparisons, do them to other miniature companies.

 Blacksails wrote:
Why are people comparing GW prices to other hobbies?

They're two unrelated things. If you're going to make comparisons, do them to other miniature companies.

This^. I can say an hour at the range will run me ~$150 with ammo, targets and range fee, but what in the Sam Hill has that got to do with wargaming or GW?

I'm not exactly out of the hobby, but what would make me more interested is:

1. not trying to have each army book/codex outdo the previous. Instead just changing the rules for the previous through FAQ, White Dwarf, or a complementary online version of a codex would balance the game a lot more, and drive people to be less competitive

2. Generally encourage strategy over army selection. One of the reasons why I think the LOTR SBG (or now Hobbit SBG) rules are the best I've seen from GW is that you can essentially win with any army, as long as you play strategically well. (there was a Rohan outrider cheat which unfortunately they did not fix). There was a guy who won the Grand Tournament many years in a row, with different armies, despite the rules not changing in between. This would make themed armies more competitive, and generally make the game more open and fun, especially for those starting.

3. A bit of a price cut on the rules and the basic kits.
it's ridiculous that I can buy 10 Witch Elves (a core unit) for 45e, or 10 Corsairs for half of that, 22.50e (not to mention 5 Doomfire Warlocks, a rare cavalry unit for 25)
Why would I, with limited money, buy the Witch Elves?

 Blacksails wrote:
Why are people comparing GW prices to other hobbies?

They're two unrelated things. If you're going to make comparisons, do them to other miniature companies.

This. And GW loses in pretty much every case. If you compare to Warmahordes, it can get just as expensive but for a full/diverse force, not the basics that you need just to get started (I could buy a standard-sized and diverse Warmachines force for what it would cost to get a starter points value Warhammer army). If you compare to Warlord/Perry/Mantic, GW loses in everything other than possibly quality, and even quality-wise their competitors aren't that awful for tabletop gaming quality.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Why are people comparing GW prices to other hobbies?

They're two unrelated things. If you're going to make comparisons, do them to other miniature companies.

This. And GW loses in pretty much every case. If you compare to Warmahordes, it can get just as expensive but for a full/diverse force, not the basics that you need just to get started. If you compare to Warlord/Perry/Mantic, GW loses in everything other than possibly quality, and even quality-wise their competitors aren't that awful for tabletop gaming quality.

And, to be fair, one doesn't normally buy plastic minis for display pieces (except maybe the odd tank/large kit)

reading through a lot of these comments and the amount of people who are so apathetic towards pricing is distressing!

I can't believe these people are fine with paying so much for their toys! I mean yeah sure GW makes some super nice plastic kits, but damn! $15 for a Captain? When I can make that same dude out of a simple Space Marine?

A guy I know is saving up for a FW Titan, I think he's absolutely stupid for doing so. First, that's well over $600! Insanity! Secondly, I have the plans to build one, all I need is the motivation, lol!

It's this kind of total lack of fiscal responsibility that allows companies to constantly hike their prices up. And for what? Just to keep the profit line increasing? Because that's exactly what it is, GW isn't in danger of dying, it's in danger of losing potential profit! It's absolutely disgusting, those guys should thank their lucky stars they have such cool careers and be happy to provide a stable economic platform for their product to thrive in and not be chasing the greedy slime sucking all mighty profit margin!

The very idea that consumers are so willing to throw their money straight into the pocket books of tycoons is appalling and just, goddangit give your head a shake! Who cares if you can afford it? Surely if you can afford to spend over $100 on an incomplete starter set surely you can donate to some local charity too then! I work my butt off so that I can have a home to live in, food for my family and keep my standard of living, when and if I have the money for such lavish expenses as tabletop wargaming I have to really ask myself if I want to keep buying GW products. Apparently some of us as so carefree with our cash that we don't mind lining the pockets of complete strangers however.

This is how the rich become opulent and the poor become disgruntled. Mark my words gentlemen, blood will run in the streets... goopy forgeworld resin blood.

darkcloak wrote:
reading through a lot of these comments and the amount of people who are so apathetic towards pricing is distressing!

I can't believe these people are fine with paying so much for their toys! I mean yeah sure GW makes some super nice plastic kits, but damn! $15 for a Captain? When I can make that same dude out of a simple Space Marine?

You're making an objective argument for a subjective decision, you think $15 is too much, I agree, others will not. You're also mistaking apathy for pragmatism. For instance, I acknowledge that GW is somewhat backed into a corner pricing wise because of it's overheads, that's their problem, and I choose to spend my money elsewhere most of the time, as, apparently, are an increasing number of others. There's no point in getting het up about it, just decide what's best for you and go with it.

A guy I know is saving up for a FW Titan, I think he's absolutely stupid for doing so. First, that's well over $600! Insanity! Secondly, I have the plans to build one, all I need is the motivation, lol!

How long will that take you? How much do you value your time? How much spare time does the guy buying one have? How strong are his scratch building skills? Again, whether a model is "worth it" or not is a personal decision based on multiple criteria.

It's this kind of total lack of fiscal responsibility that allows companies to constantly hike their prices up. And for what? Just to keep the profit line increasing? Because that's exactly what it is, GW isn't in danger of dying, it's in danger of losing potential profit! It's absolutely disgusting, those guys should thank their lucky stars they have such cool careers and be happy to provide a stable economic platform for their product to thrive in and not be chasing the greedy slime sucking all mighty profit margin!

The very idea that consumers are so willing to throw their money straight into the pocket books of tycoons is appalling and just, goddangit give your head a shake! Who cares if you can afford it? Surely if you can afford to spend over $100 on an incomplete starter set surely you can donate to some local charity too then! I work my butt off so that I can have a home to live in, food for my family and keep my standard of living, when and if I have the money for such lavish expenses as tabletop wargaming I have to really ask myself if I want to keep buying GW products. Apparently some of us as so carefree with our cash that we don't mind lining the pockets of complete strangers however.

This is how the rich become opulent and the poor become disgruntled. Mark my words gentlemen, blood will run in the streets... goopy forgeworld resin blood.

Welcome to capitalism, it's not perfect, but it's the best we've got. The fact that you state " have to really ask myself if I want to keep buying GW products" implies you still are, at least for now, which makes your whole statement a tad hypocritical.

 Blacksails wrote:
Why are people comparing GW prices to other hobbies?

They're two unrelated things. If you're going to make comparisons, do them to other miniature companies.

comparing GW minis/games to other off brand ones is like comparing coke to RC cola... very different flavours.. very different things...

all the cheaper mini games have like 3-5 armies tops, small playerbase, might not be around in a few years, small amount of fluff ect ect... where as with GW I still use models I bought 14+ years ago.


a coke bottle costs me 2.50, a RC bottle costs me 1$... so? does that mean coke is over priced, or are you just getting what you pay for.

I prefer coke to RC, because it tastes better, that is worth the extra cost... same reason for 40k over warmahordinfinitymalifux or any one of those games that no one plays...

*people do play xwing and attack wing around here, those games are cool*

in terms of there being cheaper generic versions of 40k, yeah for sure, but in terms of ABLSOLUTE costs 40k is a cheap-moderately priced hobby, which has cheap knockoffs that are of course, cheaper.

 easysauce wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Why are people comparing GW prices to other hobbies?

They're two unrelated things. If you're going to make comparisons, do them to other miniature companies.

comparing GW minis/games to other off brand ones is like comparing coke to RC cola... very different flavours.. very different things...

all the cheaper mini games have like 3-5 armies tops, small playerbase, might not be around in a few years, small amount of fluff ect ect... where as with GW I still use models I bought 14+ years ago.


a coke bottle costs me 2.50, a RC bottle costs me 1$... so? does that mean coke is over priced, or are you just getting what you pay for.

I prefer coke to RC, because it tastes better, that is worth the extra cost... same reason for 40k over warmahordinfinitymalifux or any one of those games that no one plays...

*people do play xwing and attack wing around here, those games are cool*

in terms of there being cheaper generic versions of 40k, yeah for sure, but in terms of ABLSOLUTE costs 40k is a cheap-moderately priced hobby, which has cheap knockoffs that are of course, cheaper.

This post is so full of logic holes I'm surprised it hasn't deleted itself under the weight of its own inaccuracy.

 easysauce wrote:
same reason for 40k over warmahordinfinitymalifux or any one of those games that no one plays...

Don't spend much time in the P&M section, huh? Lots of people posting their work for those games. It's quite a stretch to say no one plays those games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azreal13 wrote:

This post is so full of logic holes I'm surprised it hasn't deleted itself under the weight of its own inaccuracy.

FTW. Thanks for making me ROFL.

darkcloak wrote:
reading through a lot of these comments and the amount of people who are so apathetic towards pricing is distressing!

I can't believe these people are fine with paying so much for their toys! I mean yeah sure GW makes some super nice plastic kits, but damn! $15 for a Captain? When I can make that same dude out of a simple Space Marine?

A guy I know is saving up for a FW Titan, I think he's absolutely stupid for doing so. First, that's well over $600! Insanity! Secondly, I have the plans to build one, all I need is the motivation, lol!

It's this kind of total lack of fiscal responsibility that allows companies to constantly hike their prices up. And for what? Just to keep the profit line increasing? Because that's exactly what it is, GW isn't in danger of dying, it's in danger of losing potential profit! It's absolutely disgusting, those guys should thank their lucky stars they have such cool careers and be happy to provide a stable economic platform for their product to thrive in and not be chasing the greedy slime sucking all mighty profit margin!

The very idea that consumers are so willing to throw their money straight into the pocket books of tycoons is appalling and just, goddangit give your head a shake! Who cares if you can afford it? Surely if you can afford to spend over $100 on an incomplete starter set surely you can donate to some local charity too then! I work my butt off so that I can have a home to live in, food for my family and keep my standard of living, when and if I have the money for such lavish expenses as tabletop wargaming I have to really ask myself if I want to keep buying GW products. Apparently some of us as so carefree with our cash that we don't mind lining the pockets of complete strangers however.

This is how the rich become opulent and the poor become disgruntled. Mark my words gentlemen, blood will run in the streets... goopy forgeworld resin blood.

I respect your point and I think it is a very valid one. Yet I think it will fall on deaf ears unfortunately.

What you're writing about unfortunately is not a problem that only exists within war gaming, but truly an issue that pervades itself throughout society. Personally I have had to think very hard about how moral it is to be buying what essentially are pretty pieces of plastic or pewter. I do not think many people consider what a moral juxtaposition it is that we are perfectly willing to use our hard earned money on products which generate a profit for (mostly) corporate elites. Yet many among us are unwilling to donate or use our money for charitable causes.

I doubt any great change would come soon though. As some people think that just because they have worked hard for their money it entitles them to use that money solely on themselves. I think the key as with almost everything in life is moderation which allows us to see that no value should be placed on money, rather value can be placed on the experiences derived from products.

That is the problem of consumerism though. And as a result of our society nearly every person is a consumer.

However, let us not cast judgement on people for what they spend their money on. To the guy saving for a Forge World Titan, that may very well be something he will take great pride in and will t really hurt someone else if he purchases it? Or someone willing to spend their money on what may be perceived as overpriced products, it is sad, but I know some people who unfortunately do not have much other sources of joy in their life besides war gaming so if someone wishes to buy it then why not? Someone's purchases may seem irresponsible on a global scale, but the issue of perspective is extremely important to keep in mind or else we tend to forget the values someone else ascribes to things.

Those are just my musings as a Philosophy Major though

To the topic though of would need to be done to get me involved in GW again?

My main issues are prices, while several have speculated that price cannot simply be slashed and I agree with them; where prices could be reduced is in the rules and bundle deals, which offer a great value. As a college student, that is paying for most of my education myself, I rarely have any disposable income and the little I do have has been going towards infinity products as its easy to buy a 10 blister once a month. This blister also has a lot more value than a similar GW blister, because of each model in infinity having a much greater level of interaction within the game. I can also strip the paint when I feel like it, something not as easily done with a plastic or resin model (as far as I know most GW blisters are that way?)

If GW had a skirmish game I would definitely be inclined to purchase it as those scale of games are easy for me to regularly purchase a blister pack or two. In addition I would love if they brought back the specialist games, I' ve only been in the war gaming hobby for a little less than 2 years and as a result never had a chance to get into BFG, Epic, etc. I would branch off into those games, especially if there was a fairly priced starter box (not 100 dollars, 40-60) that had 2 forces, rules, templates, etc.

Now getting back into 40k? That would be tough because I am not really interested in the current rules, they just are not fun now that I have played other games. Randomness is fine, but its silly the amount that is in 6th edition, then the balancing of the game always had me scratching my head. I'd like a huge reboot, but that is not feasible and I don't think GW would ever do that.

When I first started 40k with a bunch of friends at the very tail end of 5th edition it was fun! I only had ~1000 point Blood Angels army, but it was great I thought besides the very obvious balancing issues. I still had fun though, but then 6th came out and I started to grow very disinterested in the game because with it came even more terribly balanced armies. I think that is one thing I got annoyed with though is how armies are updated. Instead of giving several armies updates at a time (such as releasing new units for several armies every month or 2) for some reason GW releases whole codex updates that don't make sense to me because of how badly balanced they can be and causes some armies to languish while others get updates and with it increasingly powerful units.

If balance was established I would get involved with 40k again. I understand 40k and Infinity are very different games, but having rules accessible online for free gives infinity an edge in my opinion. Imagine if 40k had a rules wiki, would that not be awesome? Or official forums? Or even at the very least a small amount of communication with fans?

I respect you if you finished this post. Lol I lost my focus very quickly and may edit later for clarity.

 easysauce wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Why are people comparing GW prices to other hobbies?

They're two unrelated things. If you're going to make comparisons, do them to other miniature companies.

comparing GW minis/games to other off brand ones is like comparing coke to RC cola... very different flavours.. very different things...

all the cheaper mini games have like 3-5 armies tops, small playerbase, might not be around in a few years, small amount of fluff ect ect... where as with GW I still use models I bought 14+ years ago.


a coke bottle costs me 2.50, a RC bottle costs me 1$... so? does that mean coke is over priced, or are you just getting what you pay for.

I prefer coke to RC, because it tastes better, that is worth the extra cost... same reason for 40k over warmahordinfinitymalifux or any one of those games that no one plays...

*people do play xwing and attack wing around here, those games are cool*

in terms of there being cheaper generic versions of 40k, yeah for sure, but in terms of ABLSOLUTE costs 40k is a cheap-moderately priced hobby, which has cheap knockoffs that are of course, cheaper.

You don't fully grasp why making a comparison between GW and snowboarding is pointless, do you?

Your post somehow manages to create a perfectly valid comparison, but you actually believe its wrong.

A comparison between Coca-Cola and RC cola is a perfectly valid example and exactly what I was talking about in my previous post. This is comparing two products in the exact same product category. When I'm picking a bottle of pop to drink, I don't look at the price of Coca-Cola and think how much cheaper it is than a snowboard.

Likewise, when you're discussing the prices of a one wargaming company, the only comparisons that matter are the prices of another wargaming company. I don't know why the size, fluff background, or amount of armies (really?) has to do with anything when discussing the prices of a plastic tank kit or a sprue of infantry.

Your problem is that you're trying to compare GW to a GW clone, when the discussion is about the value of GW as a wargaming company compared to other wargames and their value. It costs roughly between $500-1000 for a 1500pts ish army (depends on the specific list), while that same $500-1000 can buy me 6000pts of Firestorm Armada. Consider that an average game of Firestorm is run at 800-1200pts.

Now that's an example of the value of a GW game vs. another game.

When discussing the value of the kits, then you talk about any and all similar models. As another example; I play Mordian Iron Guard. I can pay $50 for 10 Mordians from GW, or I can go to Vic Minis and pay $45 for 10 not-Mordians. When you consider that the Vic minis kit is multi-part resin, with more detail, and comes with far options including a special weapon, there's really no choice what to buy.

That's the value of a GW kit. You can do the same for many other sprues they produce; much of their fantasy line when compared to Mantic as an example.

While the point you're making is that its somehow logical to say that a squad of space marines is cheap because my hobby car cost me $5000. Its completely, 100% illogical and has zero relevance to discussing how GW's prices are becoming increasingly more absurd, which is only emphasized and underscored by the rise of cheaper alternatives, whether through entirely different games (Firestorm Armada) or alternative kits designed for 28mm heroic games (Victoria Miniatures).

In answer to the OP:

At this point, I'm not entirely sure GW could actually win me back at all. I'll break down my reasons into sections. For reference, I got into both WFB and 40k around the year 2000, and gave up on both in late 2012.


- Models:

While GW's plastic models have (mostly) been very impressive for the last few years, in my personal experience the "Finecast Debacle" was/is every bit as extreme as the internet claimed it to be. In addition to that, while some of the extremely large models they've brought out are undoubtedly very cool to look at (Arachnarok, Tyrannofex, Riptide, etc), just as many have been boxy, childish eyesores. Either way, I feel many are too large for "standard" games.

Finally on this front, I think I've grown bored with the aesthetic. Time was, almost every range they produced would thrill me equally. But now I'm so sick of the freakin' Imperium and it's "SKULLS AND METAL BOXES FOR ALL" aesthetic. Lately, only Tyranid, Tau, Dark Eldar and Dark Elf models have any lure for me at all. Why don't I buy them? That brings me to section two:


- Prices:

I'm not saying GW should lower their prices, but as a New Zealander, paying prices comparable to Australia, it's very easy to say "no more" when a company expects $75 for a box of ten Tactical Marines, $85 for five Sternguard. Again, I'm not in a position to dictate how GW set their prices, but I am in a position to walk away laughing after seeing the pricetag on things. I suppose if they did lower prices, it'd make it easier for me to choose to go back to the company, but price was fairly far down the list of "reasons to quit" for me.


- Rules:

Let me just say this: I haven't enjoyed a single game of 40k since 4th, and I even found 4th pretty frustrating. I also have not enjoyed any games of 8th Fantasy that I've played, and 7th didn't really do much for me either. It's easy to call "rose tinted glasses" here, but for a long time, the game has felt like a chore to be done in order to appease my friends and justify my collection more than an aspect of the hobby I indulge in to relax.

If GW released (or re-released) a solid skirmish ruleset, I'd buy that in a heartbeat, however.

What would get me back into the core games?

*Make Fantasy about manoeuvring again, with magic something that can help along the way rather than being the biggest part of the game (at least around here). Remove random charging. Remove/change the rules around hordes.

*Make 40k MUCH simpler and more streamlined. Remove almost all random tables. Remove/merge most of the USRs. Remove random Assault distances. Make big stuff like fliers, Riptides, 6-wound Tyranids etc available only after the 1500pts mark has been exceeded. Make it much easier to play smaller games straight out of the rulebook.


- The Company Itself:

I won't go on about this side of things for very long. I'm well aware that most "big" companies are amoral at best sometimes, but lately GW has been making some frankly pig-headed moves (the Spots the Space Marine thing immediately comes to mind, as does the unnecessarily long Chapterhouse issue), and it comes down to this - I'm sure mega-companies that I buy from every day do horrible things all the time, but I'm only buying a can of soda or a hamburger at a time off those guys and don't even think about it. When the choice is spending all of my disposable on something, I'm more likely to support a company that I just assume is full of jerks as opposed to one I know is full of jerks.


- The Kick(start)er:

The biggest reason I probably wouldn't get back on the GW wagon, even if they did make some or all of the changes I mention, is the amount and quality of competition. In particular, the recent Prodos Games Alien vs. Predator kickstarter has already seen me flog off the bulk of my Tyranids and Guard, as I straight up don't need or want them any more in light of licensed Alien and Colonial Marine figures. Add to that stuff like Malifaux and Infinity, which I don't play but do buy models from because I prefer the aesthetic, and GeeDubs has a lot of catching up to do to in order for me to be interested again. Sigmarites and Adeptus Astartes just don't do it for me any more.


- The Twist:

Due to my backlog of figures, I still paint GW figures almost every week, and would play either 40k3e or Necromunda again in a flash if I could round up a group who was interested. We still play Mordheim locally too, although unfortunately not many of those guys are interested in 40k or its' spin-offs.




Wow, that was a much longer post than I intended it to be. Thanks to anyone who actually read it.

I read it, good points all.

riburn3 wrote:

Golgo13 wrote:

riburn3 wrote:
In regards to you atmosphere of despair, I largely think that only exists on the internet.

You are very wrong here, We trash GWs games as much in IRL, as we do on the Internet.

That is purely anecdotal. Just like my example. My community has been doing nothing but adding players to Warmahordes, Fantasy, and 40k for the last 5 years since I've been here. I live in a metro of 1 million people, in one of the poorest regions of the United States, and the hobby has only been growing. No one is despairing.

Other folks here are going to be splashing around anecdotes of the exact opposite, of entire groups leaving the hobby, just like you. Obviously I know an atmosphere of despair exists to some degree (heck I created this thread so I'm aware), but your lone anecdote does not make that so, just like mine doesn't counter yours. All of us provide anecdotal evidence. Fantasy seems to be dying but there are dozens here saying its thriving in their group. Whose right? At the end of the day, GW is still much larger than their competitors, sit on some good IP, and have weathered numerous storms in the past.

Lastly, if you don't think people turn to the internet to complain and voice their concern over individuals that are completely satisfied with a product, you are deluding yourself.

My point was that people complain as much IRL, in real life as they do on the Internet. And if alot of people are complaining both on the Internet, and with the groups of players they interact with, there is something wrong with the product. And People are not leaving the Table-top Hobby they are moving to other games. And Games Workshop has always gotten alot of complaints, I should know i have been in this hobby since the 80s. But the diffrence now if you compare it too the 90s and early-mid 2000, is that the market is very diffrent. Today we have options, back in the 90s you could go and play Mutant chronicles, but that was about it. In the mid 2000 you had the french rackham confrontation. None of them were any serious contenders to games workshop. But today we have Warmachine/hordes, they have been around over a decade now, we have Flames of War, also been around a long time. Then we have the rising smaller companies like Mantic, Infinity and Malifaux etc. After that we have a bunch of even smaller games, Kensai, Bushido, Carnivale and dust tactics etc. And finaly at the bottom we have all the kickstarter projects.. This makes the choises for us as players almost endless in this day of age. And GW needs to understand this and make changes or they will just continue to lose market shares. They wont go down today and not tomorrow, but if they dont change, I predict by the year 2020, that they will not still be the leading Table Top game on the market.

But the diffrence betwen all the competition and GW is that the competition are making rules that atleast try to be balanced. They are also using all the experince of several decades too try and make Fresh rules that fit the times. GW is still stuck with core rule mechanics created back in the 80s-90s. There is a huge diffrence here if you ask me.

The last years have seen the turning point, GW is falling back, one step at a time. year after year they cut more... 2013 being the worst jet, when they cut down to one man stores, increased prices yet again, made new trading agreements with independents to stop internet sales. Rushed alot of codex releases(a thing that has never happend in the companies history before), to try and get more of their products sold.... I predict that 2014 will be an abysmal year of disappointments for them... Because the people who have left, dont want to come back, even if they lower prices, because price is just something that people say is the problem, if it is fun people will pay, but the sad fact is that the products that GW produces are not FUN to play.. and that is the main problem here, And the people who left are now having alot more fun playing other games.

 easysauce wrote:

comparing GW minis/games to other off brand ones is like comparing coke to RC cola... very different flavours.. very different things...

Coke and Pepsi would be a different story though

 easysauce wrote:

all the cheaper mini games have like 3-5 armies tops, small playerbase, might not be around in a few years, small amount of fluff ect ect... where as with GW I still use models I bought 14+ years ago.

Fail.
(1)factions. Warmachine and hordes (same game, by the way) have 10 main factions, with six sub factions. And another main faction inbound. Infinity has eight or nine. Dystopian wars has about a dozen. Flames of war has everything from Finns to polish resistance. And Romanians.
(2) small player base? Maybe in your area bud. But I've seen the warmachine player base explode in size in two countries. 40k died. As to them not being around in a few years, Corvus belli grew by 75% last year! gw is the one to lose 30% of its profits! and 25% of its value. I dunno, I don't think it's a fair point.
(3) small amounts of fluff. Yeah right. I've got several 300+ page sourcebooks detailing the 4,000 years of history, nations and culture of the iron kingdoms to hand. It's been there for ten years bud. Fluff is immense, rich, gritty, characterful, and growing.
(4) using old gw models? Fair deuce, I've not used my gw models in five years, bar one game. Doesn't say much to me about them.

 easysauce wrote:

I prefer coke to RC, because it tastes better, that is worth the extra cost... same reason for 40k over warmahordinfinitymalifux or any one of those games that no one plays...

*people do play xwing and attack wing around here, those games are cool*

Plenty folks play them. When I played gw games back in Ireland, it was all I knew. The wargaming community as I knew it was all gw playing. Then I got out if it, got into warmachine, and discovered and equally vibrant community. It was large, growing, and simply did not cross paths with my circles. Those games no one plays? Try another one bud. Plenty people play them. Last tine I was home, I went to my old lgs and asked how the community had shifted. 40k was gone, warmAchine was in. Though I can't comment on your areas meta, I find it hard to believe no one plays anything else. Maybe if you went out, you'd find that, like in my case, the communities simply don't cross over?

 easysauce wrote:

in terms of there being cheaper generic versions of 40k, yeah for sure, but in terms of ABLSOLUTE costs 40k is a cheap-moderately priced hobby, which has cheap knockoffs that are of course, cheaper.

You do realise gw does 'generic' in every way? They have no unique concepts in any of their works, if anything, generic applies to them more than anyone else... 40k s nothing more than a '...but in space!' port of fantasy, which is generic fantasy, and Tolkien 101 all the way through.
As to referring to those games asgeneric versions of 40k, or cheaper Knock offs, all you are doing is displaying your ignorance. Fair enough on kings of war, but warmachine? Infinity? Dystopian wars? Come off if mate, maybe you should get off your high horse and check those games out? The iron kingdoms are a very evocative, characterful setting. Trust me, they're no knock offs of gw ip.corvus bellis models are the best in the business, by a country mile.

-------


To answer the op, I don't think gw could get me back.ive been spoiled by privateer press and Corvus belli too much. I have too many issues with the game, with the shocking Lack of professionalism in the design of the game, the contempt shown to the community at large, and the models are to me, too cartoony and aesthetics are over the top, (amusing one that, considering I play warmachine!) and silly. I've simply disliked too much the direction, and lack of vision for the game over the last few years. Beyond that, I find the fluff silly and childish (even the stuff I loved when I got into it! Reading it again, it's extremely lacklustre) and I don't see the game as fun. Others do, fair enough. But it's not for me, so I voted with my wallet and moved on.

 easysauce wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Why are people comparing GW prices to other hobbies?

They're two unrelated things. If you're going to make comparisons, do them to other miniature companies.

all the cheaper mini games have like 3-5 armies tops, small playerbase, might not be around in a few years, small amount of fluff ect ect... where as with GW I still use models I bought 14+ years ago.

I prefer coke to RC, because it tastes better, that is worth the extra cost... same reason for 40k over warmahordinfinitymalifux or any one of those games that no one plays...

*people do play xwing and attack wing around here, those games are cool*

in terms of there being cheaper generic versions of 40k, yeah for sure, but in terms of ABLSOLUTE costs 40k is a cheap-moderately priced hobby, which has cheap knockoffs that are of course, cheaper.

I find it interesting that you are still stuck in the 90s mentality "Might not be around in a few years", "or any one of those games that no one plays", those arguments are in the past if you ask me. Most of the competition has been around more then a decade, others have been around half a decade, Then we have alot of new games beside those.

I have never met anyone that seriously tried to play another game, that after doing so whent back to GWs games. I sugest you stop this foolish white knighting and quit GW, you will not regreat it.. And the Competition is only growing and is not going anywhere, this is not the 90s. The Year is 2014... you really should get with the times...

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Why are people comparing GW prices to other hobbies?

They're two unrelated things. If you're going to make comparisons, do them to other miniature companies.

This. And GW loses in pretty much every case. If you compare to Warmahordes, it can get just as expensive but for a full/diverse force, not the basics that you need just to get started (I could buy a standard-sized and diverse Warmachines force for what it would cost to get a starter points value Warhammer army). If you compare to Warlord/Perry/Mantic, GW loses in everything other than possibly quality, and even quality-wise their competitors aren't that awful for tabletop gaming quality.

I think the prices would be far more tolerable if the games were more compatible with lower model counts, and designed so that individual models mattered more. Needing to put 100+ dudes on the table is hard to contemplate. It's harder when I might be removing 20+ of them in the first turn before they get to do anything.

well we have a hard time filling 10 slots for warmahordes at our tournaments... but 30-40 slots each for 40k and fantasy always sell out...

seems like GW kicked your dogs or something... Im not white knighting them, I am just complaining about different things then you are... apparently I have to rage out at GW $'s and prices alone or I am white knighting.

you seem to be really upset that a box of GW minis costs 10$ more then a box of some other minis... ok you have every right to play/not play a game solely based on price.

I actually started on other mini wargames first and ended up enjoying 40k the most, seems like a lot of people in this thread dont enjoy GW, and dont want others to enjoy GW.

its still a cheap-moderately expensive hobby...

I can buy 4 steam punk warjacks for 49.99 they are terminator sized minis
( even 9 factions worth of the almost the exact same thing) I definitely do not see any large distinction (visually) or variation between the warmahordes players armies, everything seems like its 1/3 main armies with one or two models that are different. caster, warjacks, big warjack, some infantry... done.. sub monsters for steam robots for hordes and repeat...

YAWNNNNNNNN

60$ gets my 5 terminators... (even several factions of different space men!) not really a game breaking price difference... and while the factions may not play all that different, I certainly see the different aesthetics between chaos, SW, GK, ect terminators, not so with the warjacks

and this is full GW retail, and anyone with a brain is buying it at 25-30% off at a FLGS or online... so realistically it costs 45-50$


soo, WH has 4 models for 50$, and I can get GW product 5 models, for 50$....

http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/cygnar/units/trencher-infantry-with-three-weapon-attachments


even 13 basic plastic infantry from WH's is 50$...

15 basic cadians costs 47$....(again, they are 25-30% cheaper if you dont buy at GW)


what was that about prices again?

Until they show that they can make a superior product that is worth buying at one of the highest prices around, I am out.

Seeing them flop like this and potentially cutting products out all together scares me enough to stay clear until resolution is reached. I will buy an army and sit on it in hopes that their new book will make them a commodity. This is no longer the case. I don't plan on buying into a potentially sinking ship until the holes are filled.

Okay, well ignoring the unnecessary tone of your post, do you understand what value is?

Sure, the price of Cadians may be cheaper than a box of WM/H troops, but how many Cadians do you need versus the WM/H box for a standard game?

No one is raging, or crying, or anything else you wish to project on our posts. The point most of us are calmly making is that the value of GW kits does not match the price tag. The other point is that GW would do well to freeze the prices at the very least and add a little extra to the current boxes. Alternatively, making the game more oriented to skirmish level (sub 1000pts) would also lower the overall cost of 40k/Fantasy.

By the way, the popularity of WM/H vs. 40k at your club means nothing to popularity of the game as a whole, nor does it have any bearing on this discussion.

Furthermore, most of us want to enjoy 40k and are discussing ways in which GW would entice us back. That's the point of the thread. Obviously most of the people in this thread are not happy with GW but would really like for 40k to a game truly worth its price tag.

yup and when GW started, you only needed a few models to start...

over time, a company HAS to expand that or die... they cannot sell you 15 models, and live off that profit for decade after decade...

and you have a very bad tone...

"agree with me that GW is over priced, even though this other game costs more per model it all works out because they will NEVER make us have to buy more models"

now the argument has gone from "gw minis cost more" which is false,

to "well you HAVE to buy more GW minis" which is also, false,
you can play at any pts level you want, from kill team, to regular, to apoc.

unlike WMH which forces you to start at 15 pts, has no support for "normal" sized armies, and even less support for apoc sized games...



if you want to play 40k then play it, reduce you pts size if you cannot afford a 1850pts army.. its literally that simple... no one is forcing you to play larger games.

Its complete BS to say that a game like warmahordes with MORE expensive models, costs less, then a game with less expensive models, because you HAVE to buy more of the less expensive models, when in fact, you certainly do NOT have to buy more of the less expensive models at all.

The points you play at largely depends on the people around you. You "can" play 40k with just 2 Troops and an HQ, but how many people would be willing to always play at that level? WM/H has set points for a reason like that, and its reasonable to get. 15 points is generally a battle box, or a battle box + additional model (total of maybe $100 or less). Normal value games are generally 35 points, with tournaments tending to be 50 points, which still runs you less than it would take to START a 40k/WHFB army at 750-1000 points in most cases. So you can spend $300 or so and have a typical WM/H army that you can play against the majority of opponents outside of the large-scale fights, or pay $300 and have the basic starting 40K/WHFB force and likely need to spend another $300 or so to get a decent/normal sized army.

 easysauce wrote:


unlike WMH which forces you to start at 15 pts, has no support for "normal" sized armies, and even less support for apoc sized games...

Generally speaking, unless you significantly alter many written rules, you MUST start a GW game at 500 points.

And the difference between 40k/WHFB and WM/H is that, when PP release a new unit or army, they don't completely invalidate all previous units/models the way that GW generally does.

As your previous example, buying a 50 dollar box in Warmachine gets you a sizable portion of your army, depending on size of game you are playing. In 40k, 50 bucks gets you a much smaller portion of your force size, unless you're playing a 500 or 1000 point game... then it's a huge chunk of your force (points wise)

 easysauce wrote:
well we have a hard time filling 10 slots for warmahordes at our tournaments... but 30-40 slots each for 40k and fantasy always sell out...

seems like GW kicked your dogs or something... Im not white knighting them, I am just complaining about different things then you are... apparently I have to rage out at GW $'s and prices alone or I am white knighting.

you seem to be really upset that a box of GW minis costs 10$ more then a box of some other minis... ok you have every right to play/not play a game solely based on price.

I actually started on other mini wargames first and ended up enjoying 40k the most, seems like a lot of people in this thread dont enjoy GW, and dont want others to enjoy GW.

its still a cheap-moderately expensive hobby...

I can buy 4 steam punk warjacks for 49.99 they are terminator sized minis
( even 9 factions worth of the almost the exact same thing) I definitely do not see any large distinction (visually) or variation between the warmahordes players armies, everything seems like its 1/3 main armies with one or two models that are different. caster, warjacks, big warjack, some infantry... done.. sub monsters for steam robots for hordes and repeat...

YAWNNNNNNNN

60$ gets my 5 terminators... (even several factions of different space men!) not really a game breaking price difference... and while the factions may not play all that different, I certainly see the different aesthetics between chaos, SW, GK, ect terminators, not so with the warjacks

and this is full GW retail, and anyone with a brain is buying it at 25-30% off at a FLGS or online... so realistically it costs 45-50$


soo, WH has 4 models for 50$, and I can get GW product 5 models, for 50$....

http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/cygnar/units/trencher-infantry-with-three-weapon-attachments


even 13 basic plastic infantry from WH's is 50$...

15 basic cadians costs 47$....(again, they are 25-30% cheaper if you dont buy at GW)


what was that about prices again?

The wilful ignorance is strong in this one.

A company can expand without constantly upping the size of the game and increasing the buy in cost. Its exactly what GW has done, and its certainly not creating any growth, quite the opposite really.

I'm not telling you need to agree with me. I'm explaining that the value of a GW model does not compare well with other games for numerous reasons. GW minis do cost more per model than many other games. People have already admitted that PP sells some expensive kits, but that's offset significantly by the amount of models you need to have a large army. For the cost of a 1000pts 40k army, I could have a significantly larger force (relative to the standard game size) in WM/H.

Sure, I can play any point level I want, but if I'm not playing kill team, the minimum force org chart generally fills 500pts, so any extras rapidly bring that up 1000+pts. We can't have a discussion on the cost of 40k if you're not going to admit that a normal game of 40k is played at 1000+pts due to the nature of the force org chart and the points cost of units. Assuming that to be true, 40k/Fantasy are more expensive than most other wargames.

Just because WM/H isn't a perfect example doesn't mean GW isn't costlier. Other game systems from other manufacturers are significantly cheaper. People are leaving Fantasy for Mantic's Kings of War or at least using the models.

Anyways, I'm clearly not going anywhere with you on this, but GW's prices are not cheap. Just about every game system offers better value, whether in the quality of the kit, number of models, or proportional size of a playable army. A 1500pts 40k army will run at least $500. Few other games have such a high buy in for a basic sized force, ignoring the cost of rules and codices that other companies release for free or far cheaper.

I have a fairly extensive collection and the player base in my area is still pretty good, so I'm not dropping out. However I'm not exactly a bastion of defense for them either.

From what I can tell they need to do two things fairly quickly. The first is to change prices so that they make sense. It's well into fantasy land at the moment.

Second they need to get serious with customer service, with the first step being to start fixing the rules. I shouldn't have to buy a book like stronghold assault or death from the skies in order to get rule fixes. Those should have been FAQd. We shouldn't have real questions that are outstanding for years.

A year ago GW appeared to finally get onto the right track by rapid firing FAQs. Then, in April, they stopped. Whoever made that decision should be fired. Get back to the monthly FAQ release. Show us that you are actually listening to the fan base.

Next, stop asking me to buy the exact same rules over and over again. I already bought apoc, Escalation could have been a one page FAQ for all the new content it brought. It was certainly not worth the $50 price tag.

If you want to sell more books, follow forgeworld and publish scenario packs with missions. Basically, tell a story with the game. If you are actually "beer and pretzels" then this is what works.

Lastly, figure out what a beer and pretzels game is. 40k is about as far from that as stock car racing is to golf.