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Martel732 wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
I think we can all agree that, feelings aside, 40k has become an objectively gakky game in need of a massive overhaul.

That said, a player only deserves the criticism that goes with abusing a game system if he constantly jumps ship to the newest power army. Pro-tip - guys who have been playing Eldar for a long time, and love the army for the sake of the army, aren't the ones going out buying Scatterbikes by the bucketload.

But a lot of them are the Serpent Spam guys from 6th. And some of those were the invinci-Falcon players from 4th.

And I'm sure a lot of them jumped ship to IG, BA, or GK during 5th edition.

What I'm saying is, I only blame the players if they're fueling this ridiculous state of Pay-To-Winhammer. Those guys are the guys who went out and bought Falcons for 4th, another army for 5th, 6 Serpents for 6th, and a bucketload of Scatterbikes for 7th. And it's hard to say that even those people are worthy of insult. I mean, if you've got 'em, smoke 'em. If winning a game of toy soldiers justifies spending thousands of dollars on units and commission painting per month, then more power to you. Lord knows I spend more on luxury watches and firearms

I think that hating a codex is not a problem. Declining a game base on someone army (not his list), bullying people because of their choice of army, verbally abuse Eldar player... Those seem like the real problem to me, and I think it's different than hating the Eldar codex, or Eldar faction.

I reallly really hate playing against Eldar. And that's before their buff. But when I was playing a game agains one friend who have some (and he was not powerlisting, but still pretty close to it) I would taunt him a little for sure.

But if I felt his list was too strong, I would tell him to make some adjustement for the next game. If he didn't, I don't play him.

If someone that I never played against come ask me for a game, and play Eldar, I wouldn't decline. I would play the game. Wrost case scenario: he would destroy me in 1-2 turn, I would ask him to tone is down big time if he want to face me again, and pack my thing. If this guy ask for a game again, I would play him only if he did tone is list.

I wouldn't insult him for playing an OP army. I wouldn't insult him for bringing a Wraithnight. I would play the game if it's fun, and would tell him if it wasn't. If it wasn't and he act like an ass, I would stop playing the guy, because is problem is obviously not Eldar, but more like a personality problem lol.

At least a bunch of DAs riding around in Serpents isn't too unflluffy. Why risk precious life against a bunch if trash. It sire was stupid, and that much of a single aspect was certenly un-eldary.

But a bunch of Windriders on a joyride packed to the gills with heavy weapons? Odd enough, but Samm-Hain or some young punk Prince might do that sort of thing. With some Honored Dead at risk? Hell no. That's we're-boned time. That's hold-to-the-last desperation. Stop fooling around and fight.

Not quite as bad as trusting some of your Honored Dead to some random crazy Archon for a stroll in the who-knows-where.

About as fluffy as Black Templars assisting Khorne in destroying a Shrine world.

Yo, out of curiosity wouldn't 2 Typhon tanks deal pretty well with Scatterbikes? Ignore Cover S10 AP1 massive blast, and AV14 means they can't be hurt by S6.

Tau might have a hard time since it's a weapon that doubles out Broadsides and bypasses Skimmer jinks.

You still need an answer for Wraithknights but knocking out most of the Scatterbikes will give your MSU an advantage. At that point maybe you can win by playing to objectives.

Martel732 wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
I think we can all agree that, feelings aside, 40k has become an objectively gakky game in need of a massive overhaul.

That said, a player only deserves the criticism that goes with abusing a game system if he constantly jumps ship to the newest power army. Pro-tip - guys who have been playing Eldar for a long time, and love the army for the sake of the army, aren't the ones going out buying Scatterbikes by the bucketload.

But a lot of them are the Serpent Spam guys from 6th. And some of those were the invinci-Falcon players from 4th.

I guess you play with gakky people. I know an Eldar player form 3rd edition and he isn't half the donkey-cave you're making Eldar players out to be in this and other threads.

In fact, I'm tired of your crying. I'm taking a one year break from your posts. See ya next fall, dude.

FW prices. Ugh. Are Typhons one of the things that BA can't have?

I can hate on tau just as easily.

Bharring wrote:
Believe it or not, I am capable of thinking something is true, but considering that I might be wrong *at the same time*. I think most people are.

I thought something was probably true. I considered it being false. I considered another condition existing with the same numbers was reason enough to post before checking. And I stated my assumption in the post.

Get over it.

Again...combis aren't the same thing as having another weapon. You were arguing that marines are better against 2+ saves then DA because of the extra plasma weapon.
But if you don't want to discuss this anymore its fine by me.

Bharring wrote:

Why do I bring up a situation that doesn't happen? Because you just claimed it a few posts back! "Proving" all my math wrong! I don't think its an important setup to analyze, but if it worked out the way you had claimed, then it would preempt any other discussion. It was important to note the claim was wrong.

Fair enough. I only ask because you've brought up other such corner case situations, like the example with krak grenades.

Bharring wrote:

And the last time I saw your numbers, less than 8 DAs were killing 2.8something Marines in cover in a round. A correction:
8x2x(4/27) is 64/27 is 2.37. So clearly, less than 8 DAs don't kill 2.8+ Marines a round. Between that and rounding, recursing through the entire matchup, your numbers were very, very wrong. I'll admit I just assumed you had included no cover, but didn't have time then to work out what you did wrong.

I know its hard, but you're going to have to quote something. I don't remember my math perfectly, and I'm not going to go back through the old thread to find it. I'll say that, at the time, I was running a lot of numbers and nothing got challenged by anyone. Including yourself.
In each case, I wrote down how many hits, wounds, kills were made, in that order for every calculation (unless only something small had changed). I mentioned the condition for each calculation at the top, and spaced out different conditions. I'm a scientist by trade, I like to make sure my numbers are as correct as they can be, but also that my methodology can be followed easily by anyone.

Bharring wrote:

Oh, and I use Combis all the time without pods. I may not be a competitive player, but clearly it happens. And I face them, too.

That's fine. If you want to discuss combis on marines we can. Its much harder to account for, since it only fires once and we are looking at damage over the entire game, and the eldar player is less likely to allow you into rapid fire range, but alright.

Bharring wrote:

You didn't quote all the times my math was supposedly "proved wrong", so I didn't look it up. When one leadin specifies you, then another separate paragraph outlines a similar incident that "someone" did, I assumed that wouldn't imply that that "someone" was you. I'm a terrible communicator. I did not mean to imply that it was you.

No, I didn't want to go back through an old thread that had ended with the marine players being proven wrong against most opponent types. Quoting old threads is annoying, and I don't find the search function useful.
But in general, if you're talking to one person and say something on a forum, they'll assume its directed at them. You could always go @ XXXX if you think the quote function is difficult to use.
During that thread, however, you did relatively little much when compared to what i did outside of the PG example. Mostly it was claims being made, math disproving it, and then arguments over semantics (how much is a lot better? for example).

But again, the point is, DA are better than Tacs. You need extremely corner case situations where this isn't the case. This is mainly due to rending, battle focus, and the 6 extra inches on rapid fire range. One or two of these wouldn't be too bad, but all three make them very annoying to deal with. The formation would make it no contest, while the Tacs don't benefit as much from the formation.
Granted, neither of these units are power units from their dex.

What can I say, I'm much more concerned with being misleading or a liar than I am with being correct. Perhaps I really don't care to resume that argument?

On the other hand, I'm easily trolled.

Objectives mattering in the first *10* game turns is a "corner case"? Ever being outside 18" or inside 12" is a corner case? With infinite time and space, sure, DAs can beat Tacs in a vacuum, but neither are true in the game. DAs can beat Tacs. Tacs can beat DAs.

The Krak Grenade was a blowup over a snarky remark in response to someone claiming they never ever had any AP4 weapons in any of their lists. It was an off the cuff comment, and I regret it.

The post in question you're currently complaining about is in *this thread*. IIRC, the first paragraph was about your numbers, second about another specific individual, and the third not specified. Why would the third be implicitly assumed to be the first?

Can we just agree that dire avengers really aren't that objectionable? I personally would take them over tacs because I like their rules much better than the "guess which loadout you need THIS game!" subgame with tactical marines. As well as the false advertising for how accomplished tactical marines are and all that good garbage.

The objectionable part is where 10 DA get to kick over the remaining two tac marines after the rest of the Eldar list has had its way.

If you take away fake-Rending, DAs would exactly tie Marines while Marines rapid fire, except for the fact that Marines get first salvo. All other situations, Marines win.

If you take away Battle Focus, instead, the exchange goes Marines get a 1 shot Alpha, DAs respond with 2 shots as a beta, then Marines Rapid Fire from then on. Marines win in every category there too, unless there was forcing the Marines to stay outside 12".

If you take away the "extra 6inch range", but leave the Maxine's 24" RF, Marines win, even better. Its like not having battle focus, in that DAs would be, at most, 18" away after BFing. Marines move up, and rapid fire. After getting the alpha, probably even two rounds of it. Alternately, you could replace the A2 with RF24, just like the bolter. In that case, Marines win, whether the DAs decide to trade shots at 24" or 12". So, without the "free" +6" on the two-shot, which ignores that Marines have 6" more range than even that, but only get a single shot, whichever way you look at it, DAs lose every engagement.

So no. Take away a single one of those three things and DAs lose to Marines in every matchup. L

Martel732 wrote:
FW prices.

Proxy it! Come on dude.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
FW prices.

Proxy it! Come on dude.

Hmm... that's interesting. I'd have to get the rules somehow, though, too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
If you take away fake-Rending, DAs would exactly tie Marines while Marines rapid fire, except for the fact that Marines get first salvo. All other situations, Marines win.

If you take away Battle Focus, instead, the exchange goes Marines get a 1 shot Alpha, DAs respond with 2 shots as a beta, then Marines Rapid Fire from then on. Marines win in every category there too, unless there was forcing the Marines to stay outside 12".

If you take away the "extra 6inch range", but leave the Maxine's 24" RF, Marines win, even better. Its like not having battle focus, in that DAs would be, at most, 18" away after BFing. Marines move up, and rapid fire. After getting the alpha, probably even two rounds of it. Alternately, you could replace the A2 with RF24, just like the bolter. In that case, Marines win, whether the DAs decide to trade shots at 24" or 12". So, without the "free" +6" on the two-shot, which ignores that Marines have 6" more range than even that, but only get a single shot, whichever way you look at it, DAs lose every engagement.

So no. Take away a single one of those three things and DAs lose to Marines in every matchup. L

Other than the fact that the marines probably got raped by the rest of the Eldar list before the fire fight started.

The CWE book having so much OPness makes it really, really hard for people to look at the rest of the stuff in the book reasonably.

To many people, DAs are just the douches who ride the Serpents, and only step out to clean up the trash.

Of course they look OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With your collection, Martel, you might have the bits to scratch build a few FW things like that...

Martel732 wrote:
Hmm... that's interesting. I'd have to get the rules somehow, though, too.

If you can clear out the bikes, there's ways BA can strike before a WK while applying Instant Death. ID will do extra wounds and deny FNP. Stomp will be a PITA, so you definitely want the kill on the turn you charge.

Either way, once you wipe out most of his Scatterbike firepower, he'll need to push Wraithknights onto objectives or lose. 2x D-Cannon shots is not compelling firepower against a Tac Squad! Either way, if you force him to take objectives rather than simply sit back and blast you off the board, it opens up options since he can no longer win the game from 36" away.

Force the game into VP victories rather than tabling and you're probably going to see Tacs differently. Treat them as a tool for forcing enemy action towards objectives. Sticking a Heavy Flamer and a Power Weapon on them makes them food if your army is getting tabled. They are a waste of points and irrelevant. However, if the game comes down to troop versus troop squabbling over the last objectives, those BA tacs are a nightmare to shift or get assaulted by.

Come back here after beating 27x Scatterbikes and 2x Wraithknights with BA and I think the whole forum will buy you a beer. Get on it

The big problem sounds like its gonna be the WKs opening those up too early.

It may come down to who gets first turn.

Any thoughts on slowing down the WKs for that style list? How far back can they be? Would a Void Shield Generator help?

Any sort of shenanigans seems fair against those sorts of lists.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Hmm... that's interesting. I'd have to get the rules somehow, though, too.

If you can clear out the bikes, there's ways BA can strike before a WK while applying Instant Death. ID will do extra wounds and deny FNP. Stomp will be a PITA, so you definitely want the kill on the turn you charge.

Either way, once you wipe out most of his Scatterbike firepower, he'll need to push Wraithknights onto objectives or lose. 2x D-Cannon shots is not compelling firepower against a Tac Squad! Either way, if you force him to take objectives rather than simply sit back and blast you off the board, it opens up options since he can no longer win the game from 36" away.

Force the game into VP victories rather than tabling and you're probably going to see Tacs differently. Treat them as a tool for forcing enemy action towards objectives. Sticking a Heavy Flamer and a Power Weapon on them makes them food if your army is getting tabled. They are a waste of points and irrelevant. However, if the game comes down to troop versus troop squabbling over the last objectives, those BA tacs are a nightmare to shift or get assaulted by.

Come back here after beating 27x Scatterbikes and 2x Wraithknights with BA and I think the whole forum will buy you a beer. Get on it

Challenge accepted!

Amusingly, these same people who refuse to play against Eldar were perfectly okay when one of the various Space Marine codices were the overpowered stuff-- they didn't go around saying "I refuse to play against blood angels" or "I refuse to play against space wolves" during their heyday-- indeed, a few I recognize as having actually played both of those during their strongest points in the metagame... including playing very powergamey army lists.

 Melissia wrote:
Amusingly, these same people who refuse to play against Eldar were perfectly okay when one of the various Space Marine codices were the overpowered stuff-- they didn't go around saying "I refuse to play against blood angels" or "I refuse to play against space wolves" during their heyday-- indeed, a few I recognize as having actually played both of those during their strongest points in the metagame... including playing very powergamey army lists.

There's a difference between a codex being very strong and a codex being un interactive. Certain Eldar builds are simply not fun to play against. Going up against a good army isn't the issue, even a good army with a good player. The problem is when you play a game where the unit entry in the codex alone just takes your models off the table. I don't mind losing against a strong player/build, but it sucks losing against a ludicrous statline in a book.

Dman137 wrote:
So after a few events I've been to and opinions of people online and at my local hobby store, I come to realize that there is way to much hate in eldar, and for no reason except for "oh there dex is over powered" events I've been to mine and other eldar players soft scores are getting bombed, people refuse to play you at hobby centers/gaming groups. It's ridiculous the amount of cry babies you run into.

Yes it's a great codex, So is the necrons and Spance marines dex but no one says anything about them because apparently eldar are tiers above.
People need to learn how to adapt when new challenges present them selves instead of just being all boo boo stink face about it.

Yeah it's a good book, get over it, find ways to deal with it instead of just refusing to playing against it or in the case of events, bombing your opponents scores. What makes great players is learning how to win and how to get past obstacles but instead everyone just cries about scattbikes, warpspiders, wraithnights blah blah blah. Grow up, learn to play and how to beat it because there are a lot of ways, I'm a eldar player and I've played against army's that beat me because my opponent is a real player.

I'm sure I'm not the only person that feels this way[/quote

Heres a suggestion, to lower the "hate" from now on play your opponites army, and he/she plays yours. That way you can use your skills to show how easy it is to beat Eldar...?

Regardless of what army you play, if you're winning 80+% of the time, you're probably doing something wrong. Playing the wrong opponents if you're competitive. Pissing in the meta pool if you're not.

Again, regardless of the army you play, if over, say, 30% of your opponents walk away from your game unhappy, unless you're in a hyper competitive meta, you're probably doing it wrong.

It seems to be much, much easier to piss my opponents off when I field my Eldar. But it is possible to give them a fun game, too.

 Melissia wrote:
Amusingly, these same people who refuse to play against Eldar were perfectly okay when one of the various Space Marine codices were the overpowered stuff-- they didn't go around saying "I refuse to play against blood angels" or "I refuse to play against space wolves" during their heyday-- indeed, a few I recognize as having actually played both of those during their strongest points in the metagame... including playing very powergamey army lists.

Making a lot of assumptions that people who have a problem with the eldar codex don't have a problem with SMs having overpowered stuff here.

Bharring wrote:
Any thoughts on slowing down the WKs for that style list? How far back can they be? Would a Void Shield Generator help?

Any sort of shenanigans seems fair against those sorts of lists.

Stick them behind 2 Land Raider Redeemers for protection!

You can simply drive around the map frying all the Scatterbikes while they run in horror! Lol. If they castle up in the back, drop a Typhon blast on them. If the Wraithknights get close, assault out of the Land Raiders.

In fact, if you can wipe out all the Eldar AT early, you can just park on the objectives and chill while your Tacs drink beer inside their transports. You just made 700+ points of his army completely irrelevant.

I personally feel that the only justifible hate against Eldar players are those that specifically choose the army because they want an easy win, buying WindRiders, Warp Spiders, Wraithknights and co.

Then refusing to tone down lists when their usual whipping boys ask them too.

But that's more a TFG issue. I personally know someone who got mullered by Necrons and then suddenly assembled 5100 points of Necrons.

Ever seen Band of Brothers?

Nobody hates the Eldar, Dman137.

They just hate you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQE1YIJDNWo


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Challenge accepted!

BTW, please let me know how this goes!!

Bharring wrote:
What can I say, I'm much more concerned with being misleading or a liar than I am with being correct. Perhaps I really don't care to resume that argument?

On the other hand, I'm easily trolled.

If you don't want to, that's fine.

Bharring wrote:

Objectives mattering in the first *10* game turns is a "corner case"? Ever being outside 18" or inside 12" is a corner case? With infinite time and space, sure, DAs can beat Tacs in a vacuum, but neither are true in the game. DAs can beat Tacs. Tacs can beat DAs.

It's 5 game turns, 10 player turns.
A duel is very corner case, it will never happen in a real game. Armies concentrate fire power, and the eldar are fast enough, and have long ranged weapons, to do this.
Being outside 18 and within 24 is corner case. It's 6". Eldar are also much faster.
Being within 12" of marines is corner case against most armies. Marines are slow, if they start 30" away from their target it'll take them a few turns to reach that. They can run, but they are slow runners. There is nothing stopping the enemy moving backwards if marines are scary for some reason. An eldar guardian unit could, for example, keep moving backwards and scatter laser the marine player over and over until its weak enough to be killed by normal guns. It's not a smart play, and it would take time, but it could be done.

DAs beat tacs on most targets. Toughness, tacs win, unless you are facing heavy weapons in which case they become equal. DAs are faster, have better range, and access to more force multipliers. We can weigh what each has, but I do think DAs are much better and Tacs are terrible. For the record, I play Alpha Legion, Space Wolves, and Biel-Tan (and more armies). I'm saying this as someone who plays both.

Bharring wrote:

The Krak Grenade was a blowup over a snarky remark in response to someone claiming they never ever had any AP4 weapons in any of their lists. It was an off the cuff comment, and I regret it.

Fair enough.

Bharring wrote:

The post in question you're currently complaining about is in *this thread*. IIRC, the first paragraph was about your numbers, second about another specific individual, and the third not specified. Why would the third be implicitly assumed to be the first?

Corrected the math? Like the time you ran the numbers without cover to show that that my numbers that explicitly state a 5+ cover were wrong?

Or the time that the numbers were run based on BS5 a3 from the formation?

Or all the talk of an Exarch without Precision Shots sniping the special/heavy weapons?

As for why DAs would go through terrain, because the CSM run the show. If they don't do their exact, controllable counter every round, the Marines win.

This is the statement I was referring to, and was in response to something I had posted.
I'm not sure what you're talking about exactly, but this is why I thought the formation comment was directed at me. I think you can easily see why I thought that. I addressed all of these and split it up for ease of reading.
If you are referring to something else, you'll have to clarify.

 Las wrote:
There's a difference between a codex being very strong and a codex being un interactive.

Space Wolves and Blood Angels were so strong as to be broken at the time. Making excuses doesn't change this. I don't see any difference between Eldar now and the top tier "omg op" armies before... except that this time it's not an Imperial army.

I know one thing, if Sisters of Battle get updated and are overpowered, I'm not going to be polite about it, I'm going to rub it in peoples' faces

 Melissia wrote:

 Las wrote:
There's a difference between a codex being very strong and a codex being un interactive.

Space Wolves and Blood Angels were so strong as to be broken at the time. Making excuses doesn't change this. I don't see any difference between Eldar now and the top tier "omg op" armies before... except that this time it's not an Imperial army.

I know one thing, if Sisters of Battle get updated and are overpowered, I'm not going to be polite about it, I'm going to rub it in peoples' faces

BA and SW were never as bad as Eldar are now. BA and SW lists were still shot off the table by Eldrad/scatterwalkers/guide/fortune in ruins with semi-regularity. Even when the Eldar were "down" the scatterlaser was bailing them out.

 Melissia wrote:
Amusingly, these same people who refuse to play against Eldar were perfectly okay when one of the various Space Marine codices were the overpowered stuff-- they didn't go around saying "I refuse to play against blood angels" or "I refuse to play against space wolves" during their heyday-- indeed, a few I recognize as having actually played both of those during their strongest points in the metagame... including playing very powergamey army lists.

Na that is just a persecution complex, don't worry bout it..

Lets look at other threads in the last week...

-Grav
-Free transports
-Darkshroud (this one interestingly ISN'T that hot of a subject)
-Centurions
-Skyhammer (of course)
-Thunderwolf Cavalry

Not complained about but I'll toss it in because hey I know people hate them, but they are pretty easy to deal with now-a-days.

-Dreadknight

Now this list is interesting, because it doesn't complain about an entire codex, rather the LITERALLY best units in the respective codices are the one people bitch about. Because they are spammed in comp. lists.
But Eldar on the other hand.

-Scat. Bikes
-Psychic Powers, Guide, Fortune
-Wraithknights
-Wraithguard
-Farseer
-6 inch move, shoot, and scoot.
-Somehow the Wave Serpent was brought up again? Probably the Pen -> Glance wargear

I was, but I could see how the post you just quoted could easily be read the way you describe. Sorry bout that.

Your math said 5 game turns. Mine said 10.

4/27 kills/shuriken shot, 2/9 kills per boltgun shot.
10v10.

R1:
10 Marines kill 2+2/9 Eldar
7+7/9 Eldar kill 560/243, or 2.3 Marines

R2
7.7x1x(2/9) kill 1.7 DA
6.1x2x(4/27) kill 1.8 Marines

R3
5.9x1x(2/9) kill 1.3 DA
4.8x2x(4/27) kill 1.4 Marines

R3
4.5x1x(2/9) kill 1 DA
3.8x2x(4/27) kill 1.1 Marines

R4
3.4x1x(2/9) kill 0.8 DA
3x2x(4/27) kill 0.9 Marines

R5
2.5x1x(2/9) kill 0.6 DA
2.4x2x(4/27) kill 0.7 Marines

After round 5, Marines are still fighting!

R6
1.8x1x2/9 kill 0.4 DA
2.0 DA kill 0.6 Marines

R7
1.2x1x2/9 kill 0.3 DA
1.7x2x(4/27) kill 0.5 Marines

After 7 rounds of everything except the 5+ cover save going exactly how DAs want it, and Marines being allowed to do virtually whatever they want, 0.7 Marines remain to say "f u" to the 1.7 DAs.

There. The numbers again. I'm not seeing DAs eliminating the Marines in 5 rounds.