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 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Unless the enemy is tau and they shoot at reserves as they come in. In which case you are feeding them to the enemy guns.

Against tau haywire blasters are completely useless


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Also having more of your force on the board often makes you live longer and do more. I honestly don't understand the idea of splitting your force up

We're talking about just 120 points in reserve...

I don't like using reserves too, and not a real fan of scourges either, but i think they would be really effective only with haywire blasters, coming by deep strike and only against specific lists. I won't take them a tournament.

Thats an interesting theory considering they are usually considered one of the best units we have.

However, every game I pay i find myself to agree on their mostly situational use.

 Blackie wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Unless the enemy is tau and they shoot at reserves as they come in. In which case you are feeding them to the enemy guns.

Against tau haywire blasters are completely useless


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Also having more of your force on the board often makes you live longer and do more. I honestly don't understand the idea of splitting your force up

We're talking about just 120 points in reserve...

I don't like using reserves too, and not a real fan of scourges either, but i think they would be really effective only with haywire blasters, coming by deep strike and only against specific lists. I won't take them a tournament.

HWB are S4 AP4, thats perfect to kill there troops. But if you are playing tau and know its tau just dont take them.

If you are playing all comers I would still take them, evens some tau players takes some vehicles time to time anyways.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Unless the enemy is tau and they shoot at reserves as they come in. In which case you are feeding them to the enemy guns.

Against tau haywire blasters are completely useless


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Also having more of your force on the board often makes you live longer and do more. I honestly don't understand the idea of splitting your force up

We're talking about just 120 points in reserve...

I don't like using reserves too, and not a real fan of scourges either, but i think they would be really effective only with haywire blasters, coming by deep strike and only against specific lists. I won't take them a tournament.

HWB are S4 AP4, thats perfect to kill there troops. But if you are playing tau and know its tau just dont take them.

If you are playing all comers I would still take them, evens some tau players takes some vehicles time to time anyways.

Not the tau player at my store who supposedly cheats, plays OP lists and seems rather smug about his OP faction and army.

Considering our worst match-ups don't often take vehicles or at least not that many i think you're shooting yourself in both feet. I think in the last 5 games or so i haven't fought vehicles that i couldn't handle (with or without haywire though i will admit in my game today it'd have killed that one vehicle faster but that's not something the heat lance didn't achieve as well with just one squad) and in many cases i'd imagine cluster caltrops can wreck leman russ tanks in cover with camo netting for a 3+ cover save much better than haywire can. They hit instantly, glance on 5's (admittedly not so hot) and pen and rend on 6's. Honestly in many cases i can't help but think more reavers would solve more situations better. It has more versatility. I can have a couple squads go after one thing or another and i can jink them. I can also do JSJ with the reavers which with certain weapons can be kind of nice.

A Str 4 ap 4 shot per haywire blaster guy is absolute trash if there are no vehicles. You just paid 120 pts to do that.

As i've said before the only time i can think of wanting to use haywire is against super-heavies.

Sadly it's considered poor sportsmanship to prepare a list when you know who the opponent is so i prepare a list ahead of time. I realize this doesn't benefit dark eldar in the slightest but in many cases it's what the gamers at the local GW do. We have different points amounts per list set up. It's usually divided up into 250 points apart per setting except the oddly standardized 1850 pts lists.

The difference if TAC list vs Tailoring.

Im your facing tau and only tau and you know that sure dont take them.

If you want a TAC list you most likely will want a unit of them.

I was saying in a TAC list as least they can fill a role, costly but a rile.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
The difference if TAC list vs Tailoring.

Im your facing tau and only tau and you know that sure dont take them.

If you want a TAC list you most likely will want a unit of them.

I was saying in a TAC list as least they can fill a role, costly but a rile.

I won't say it's tailoring but knowing your meta... if you don't know who are you gonna play with but know what armies your friends or people in your local area run, then you have some input about optimizing your list. In my meta not many players use vehicles, only blood angels, orks, dark eldars and astra militarum have a lot of them, probably chaos too and sometimes necrons with 1-2 arks. Among these armies haywire come super handy only against BA and AM, maybe orks if they have a lot of battle wagons, usually they go trukks spam. But the most frequent armies are SM or wolves with only flyers and pods, tau and eldar with no vehicles at all, daemons, tyranids... so if you know that you unlikely will face a worthy vehicle then you can let your scourges stay home. I like scourges, i'm not saying they're useless or overrated, they're just meta dependent. And other units like trueborn o ravagers, even if they are not cheesy, can always find an appropriate target against every type of army. I always include three ravagers, only sometimes i take scourges and almost never i use trueborn.

I don't know why people are so scared of list tailoring. If DE don't list tailor then we're stuck with spammed Warriors in Venoms, Reaver squads and a Grotesquerie or Corpsthiefe Claw.

Because list tailoring is a dick move, and is not possible in a competitive setting.

It's just not anywhere in my meta.

Some people write their lists right before a match but I hate that, as I would either talk with my opponent about what they're bringing, or show up blind. Mostly I just show up blind.

Any thoughts on how we can fight genestealer cult? Considering how badly an alpha strike can mess us up, it seems like a bad match.

Also, any thoughts on a single archon in a venom. Laurence from Table Top Tactics youtube channel uses one, and I am curious as to why, considering it seems like a terrible tactical choice.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
It's just not anywhere in my meta.

Some people write their lists right before a match but I hate that, as I would either talk with my opponent about what they're bringing, or show up blind. Mostly I just show up blind.

Any thoughts on how we can fight genestealer cult? Considering how badly an alpha strike can mess us up, it seems like a bad match.

Also, any thoughts on a single archon in a venom. Laurence from Table Top Tactics youtube channel uses one, and I am curious as to why, considering it seems like a terrible tactical choice.

Its a torpedo attempt. why you'd choose a venom though? That is the real mystery. it works on mediocre close combat combatants but that's pretty much the definition of hoping so I can see WHY he would do it. He's thinking "hey if they wanna attack this venom and spend entire units trying to kill one figure, its that much less I have to deal with in my REAL threats." And I imigine he makes it JUST dangerous enough that no one with aforementioned medicore units in melee will not want to mess with him, though not so expensive it is a drain.

Also he probably sees it like I do, which is that its ridiculous to be able to take the Court without the Archon. that is the way it is (and i take advantage of the fact that this is in fact correct even though I think its stupid), but maybe he keeps with the spirit of the rules mor in his local group.

I think I am with you though. Probably wouldn't do it. Certainly wouldn't do it with a Venom.

Martel732 wrote:
Because list tailoring is a dick move, and is not possible in a competitive setting.

Yeah i don't like it too, but here there aren't 100 players so you know all of them and what armies they have. Even if i don't know who i'm gonna play with, i know what i can likely face so some units can be not worthy in my local meta. I hate tailoring lists too but if i know that there are very little chances to face superheavies or a lot of flyers i won't take some dedicate hard counters for those units.

That's not hard tailoring. "superheavy" and "flyer" are very general. Plus, most things that wreck regular vehicles wreck superheavies, just slower. I'm talking, "Oh I play Bob's Orks next week. Time for anti--Ork tech!"

Im ok with semi list tailor, as in talking to your opponent about what type of game you want.

List tailor isnt bad per say, But if 1 does it and the other doesnt THEN it is bad, Or if 1 is better at weakness/strength of each army it can make the game 1 sided.

But I was also talking about a generic TAC list and if you came across a list that makes your unit pointless.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
It's just not anywhere in my meta.

Some people write their lists right before a match but I hate that, as I would either talk with my opponent about what they're bringing, or show up blind. Mostly I just show up blind.

Any thoughts on how we can fight genestealer cult? Considering how badly an alpha strike can mess us up, it seems like a bad match.

Also, any thoughts on a single archon in a venom. Laurence from Table Top Tactics youtube channel uses one, and I am curious as to why, considering it seems like a terrible tactical choice.

Sad bit is sometimes i used to write my lists before a game and even when i take some alright things and some decent things i found myself restricting what i take so as not to tailor for the most part.

That said back in Fantasy when i played skaven and people were playing wood elves (or at least that's how the overall game meta went) i tried to take stuff for my skaven to counter such awful units. Admittedly the balance was nowhere near as awful as 7th 40k (which astonished me when i started 7th) but it was one of those issues where if you didn't prepare to face that possibility you'd lose. People still gave me crap for that. It's like if tau and eldar players complained that you took a decent amount of counter to their armies as dark eldar in your normal list just because they can't roflstomp you as hard as they wanted to.

i am a tournament player and we simply do not have the luxury of this list tailoring stuff. We need to be able to practice against, and win against, anything and everything. So if someone wants to tailor AGAINST me, and I know for a fact it happens, fine. It's that much better a test for me.

I don't invite it obviously because its not very realistic that I would face the perfect hard counter like that, but on the other hand... i mean certain things like I faced at the Seattle Heart of Fire Grand Tournament this weekend are just givens at those events and facing them ahead of time is nothing but smart.

Now i used to know a guy who would carry like four armies around with him and you'd set up a game and hed come in with nothing in hand and casually ask you about what you were bringing and look at yer models...and then go out and get his stuff. an obvious attempt to tailor would then show up across from me. I took particular joy in tearing HIM apart. I think he MIGHT have beaten me a couple times when i first started? but he loved to club new players like a baby seal.

That's kind of where i draw the line. Geez. Just come and play. Best tournament force against mine. lets do this.

 Jancoran wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
It's just not anywhere in my meta.

Some people write their lists right before a match but I hate that, as I would either talk with my opponent about what they're bringing, or show up blind. Mostly I just show up blind.

Any thoughts on how we can fight genestealer cult? Considering how badly an alpha strike can mess us up, it seems like a bad match.

Also, any thoughts on a single archon in a venom. Laurence from Table Top Tactics youtube channel uses one, and I am curious as to why, considering it seems like a terrible tactical choice.

Its a torpedo attempt. why you'd choose a venom though? That is the real mystery. it works on mediocre close combat combatants but that's pretty much the definition of hoping so I can see WHY he would do it. He's thinking "hey if they wanna attack this venom and spend entire units trying to kill one figure, its that much less I have to deal with in my REAL threats." And I imigine he makes it JUST dangerous enough that no one with aforementioned medicore units in melee will not want to mess with him, though not so expensive it is a drain.

Also he probably sees it like I do, which is that its ridiculous to be able to take the Court without the Archon. that is the way it is (and i take advantage of the fact that this is in fact correct even though I think its stupid), but maybe he keeps with the spirit of the rules mor in his local group.

I think I am with you though. Probably wouldn't do it. Certainly wouldn't do it with a Venom.

For No Retreat III Lawrence explained in his vid he took the Archon for thematic reasons, he knew the Lhamaen was the better choice but didn't want to do that. I think the only upgrade he took on the Archon was a Blaster. As for the Venom, it was an obvious choice, his army was Warriors in Venoms with Blaster and Haywire Sybarite along with 6 units of 6 Reavers, all with 2 Blasters and 2 Cluster Caltrops. That was a hard hitting army that did it's job well, but No Retreat has a unique set up that allowes lower tier codexes to stand a slightly better chance.

Ah yes, I suppose that makes sense.

In the battle reports, the archon is kitted out with all the goodies, but those are a more friendly.

Question. Haywire grenade Sybarite, or a blaster in 5 man kabalite squads? they cost the same, so which do you prefer. Personally, i don't like either, as they make a unit that wants to do one thing do the other, but I can definitely see the usefulness of a bit of haywire.

Yeah but No Retreat an Archon is fine, their rules are that of 5th ed play style (where DE book was basically made for, so stupid)

I honestly dont look at No Retreat in anytype of tournament scene, to be it is just friendly games.

 gummyofallbears wrote:

Question. Haywire grenade Sybarite, or a blaster in 5 man kabalite squads? they cost the same, so which do you prefer. Personally, i don't like either, as they make a unit that wants to do one thing do the other, but I can definitely see the usefulness of a bit of haywire.

I'd go with blasters as they're more versatile. Blasters can hurt everything and just make warriors firepower a little better. Haywire are situational. Anyway i prefer taking 5 man warriors with no upgrades, i would include blasters only if i have some points spared and no other valuable units/upgrades available.

I always run them as a 5 man squad with a Blaster for versatility.

Should also point out that Lawrence ran almost the exact same list as his NR winner in a GT at the weekend, he came 7th winning 4 out of 5 games.

Edit: Might have been a Major, he said he's aiming to be the top Dark Eldar player in the ITC before he goes to the LVO.

For what it's worth, I'm taking Harlequins w/Dark Eldar to the LVO. I've practiced this list three times so far with three wins (GSC, GSC, 3x Renegade Knights + Orkbikestar). Tabled them all in fact.

DARK ELDAR REALSPACE RAIDER DETACHMENT
-----------------------------------------------------------------
- Sslyth
- Venom, dualcannons

- 5x Kabalite Warriors, blaster
- Sybarite, haywire grenades
- Venom, dualcannons

- 5x Kabalite Warriors, blaster
- Sybarite, haywire grenades
- Venom, dualcannons

- 3x Reaver Jetbikes, blaster, caltrops

- 3x Reaver Jetbikes, blaster, caltrops

- 3x Reaver Jetbikes, blaster, caltrops

- 3x Reaver Jetbikes, blaster, caltrops

- 3x Reaver Jetbikes, blaster, caltrops

- 3x Reaver Jetbikes, blaster, caltrops

HARLEQUIN FAOLCHU'S BLADE
-----------------------------------------
- 2x Skyweavers, glaives

- 2x Skyweavers, glaives

- Voidweaver, Prism Cannon

HARLEQUIN MASQUE
----------------------------
- 5x Troupe, 2x caresses, Kiss, Master w/ caress & haywire grenade
- Starweaver

- 5x Troupe, 2x caresses, Kiss Master w/ caress & haywire grenades
- Starweaver

- 5x Troupe, 2x caresses, Master w/ caress & haywire grenade
- Starweaver

- Inriam's Specter, haywire grenades

- Voidweaver, haywire cannon

Good luck. May the force be with you.

 Jancoran wrote:
Good luck. May the force be with you.

I think it's a good list.... But man.... those flying demon lists.....

I will state as a matter of pure opinion that the Sybarites with Haywire would probably better be spent on a Crucible of Malediction which is VERY good against the Magnus Flying Circus list (compared to basically anything else you could take for the same points)

The MSU approach wil help against super elite armies but dual Surges may turn this list into soup. So be aware of that possibility in your planning.

Go get 'em.

Thankfully I don't have much of that in my meta, however I can sympathize that if you do.

Its nice to see that there are people who take the crucible of malediction seriously, as I feel there are tons of little special cool pieces of wargear that really give DE some flavour, and are quite good if wielded correctly.

On another note, I was thinking about the way DE play, as they are definitely getting most of my army love currently. (specifically thinking of ways to model a haemonculus with the Parasites kiss and a stinger pistol for a gunslinging badass that would probably not be very effective.) and I feel like Dark Eldar are an army of breaking even, and lesser so an army about completely obliterating your enemy.

Also, for anybody who hasn't seen the rumors, gangs of commoragh is coming out soon, and apparently its 6 reavers, 10 hellions for $60, which is interesting for anybody without enough reavers.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Thankfully I don't have much of that in my meta, however I can sympathize that if you do.

Its nice to see that there are people who take the crucible of malediction seriously, as I feel there are tons of little special cool pieces of wargear that really give DE some flavour, and are quite good if wielded correctly.

On another note, I was thinking about the way DE play, as they are definitely getting most of my army love currently. (specifically thinking of ways to model a haemonculus with the Parasites kiss and a stinger pistol for a gunslinging badass that would probably not be very effective.) and I feel like Dark Eldar are an army of breaking even, and lesser so an army about completely obliterating your enemy.

Also, for anybody who hasn't seen the rumors, gangs of commoragh is coming out soon, and apparently its 6 reavers, 10 hellions for $60, which is interesting for anybody without enough reavers.

Yeah I play in a tank full of sharks. 62 players this weekend and there were some definite Psyker armies. My Assassin got a little work out against the Lamenters, stopping a Dread libby from Force weaponing my StormSurge, but I didged the other Psyker goodness like the Cabal driven Dawgstar and the Magnus crazy pants goodness. It was there though and I could have faced it. Crucible is good against that Magnus +Rehati BS. Lol.

if you don't have heavy psyker users, then yeah. Skip it. Still not excited about the Sybarites though.

I don't have a DE unit that can take a relic in the army.

The theme and strength of this list is that everything can hurt every kind of unit. So Kabalites with blaster and HWG Sybarite in a Venom hurts everything. I've got no qualms about moving their Venom close to a Knight for the blaster and thrown grenade. I'll even assault the Kabalites into a hurt knight to finish it off. And against battle company I need all the anti-armor I can get.

The Reavers are the same way, they're anti-armor and anti-infantry, even anti-MC.

The Troupes and Skyweavers hurt anything, as can Voidweavers.

Even the Sslyth can break a Rhino.

Certainly.

I am considering giving my Kabalite warrior units blasters and a haywire sybarite (god knows I have enough special looking KW)

I just need to make some serious point adjustments though (its about 90 points to give the kabalite squads that. Maybe drop the blasterborn?), but I would also like to include a dark artisan (just need to convert a chronos) so it shouldn't be too difficult.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Certainly.

I am considering giving my Kabalite warrior units blasters and a haywire sybarite (god knows I have enough special looking KW)

I just need to make some serious point adjustments though (its about 90 points to give the kabalite squads that. Maybe drop the blasterborn?), but I would also like to include a dark artisan (just need to convert a chronos) so it shouldn't be too difficult.

In my experience with this list when the sky is full of Reavers, Harlequin bikes, and three charging Troupes, folks don't go after the Venoms. I think in my games with this list I've lost just one Venom each game.... So they keep shooting and shooting. Those blasters last longer than Reaver blasters and they don't have to snap fire.

I'm a fan of 5 man warrior squad with blaster and sybarite with haywire. Gets two chances to hurt armor at 8", the +1ld usually does me well, and can try to assault vehicles for the haywire grenade attack. Against immobile veggies you get the benefit of locking the unit into assault with a pod or some such.