Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

shogun wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
Couple of things looking through that I would think a daemon player wouldn´t be doing. He wouldn´t throw too many dice at any one spell to get it off but throw enough to make you think about denying it. so 3-4 dice at the WC1 novas.

Remember that GSC got 8+d6 to deny on a 4+. In this scenario the LOC didn't get nova but if magnus did indeed use 3/4 warp dice then depending on the result the GSC could also try to deny with 5/6 dice. It depends on the position of magnus and fateweaver and which nova power I rather face. I said before that it could be possible that daemons could pull of 2 nova's and depending on the Strength it could be devastating. But at the same time I know that if you really want something to happen with daemons you better go all the way with your warp dice because it could bite you in the ass if you try to have everything. Also in this scenario it was not possible for Fateweaver and magus to keep flying without ending their move next to one another. So two nova's that are so close could also lose effectiveness. Still hurt tho...

That is my point Magnus throwing 4 dice would get it off on 3. Making the GSC player make the desicion to stop the first one or wait to see if there is another spell to stop. The novas would be the most devistating in the first turn so I would expect the player to save dice to stop it but lets say 3 success so would you throw 6 to expect an average or throw more to get a better garuntee. you can basically stop 1 which is what I want you to try and do.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Nope I did not deny the movement hindrance that GSC could cause

You spent two pages telling shogun he couldn't rely on Cult Ambush to deploy his dudes where they needed to be. He showed you how reliable it was. I knew how reliable it was while you were saying this nonsense, because I've made the same mistake you're making - you're assuming that because CA isn't able to reliably deliver devastating first turn charges, it's unreliable all round. That's not the case. I have enough models to block your movement and can reliably place them to do so.

however the long useless argument with shogun was the fact that he claim that GSC can deny swooping of FMCs on a consistent basis.

If you deploy in certain ways they can indeed do that - and the GSC player will **always** know if you're going to deploy in such a fashion because his entire army can Infiltrate (except CAD dudes, who sit in reserve).

My point is that GSC can stop you dominating the middle like you said you would try to. You're not even denying that anymore - your argument has transposed from "I will dominate the middle" to "I can cede control of the Relic and still get it back with mighty Nipple Novas".

I call shenanigans on this too, for all the reasons given above.

With that aside, yes GSC can deny direct movement of FMCs toward a certain direction(I never deny that in any of my posts), but it will required GSC to put a large of amount models in front of the FMC player instead playing the mobility/hiding game and many of them will have no cover besides the first turn shroud.

Why would they play the mobility/ hiding game when they can grab the Relic turn one and hold you off of it forever? Don't get me wrong, I'm a lot less aggressive with my GSC than shogun is, but even I recognise the value in taking the initiative in situations like this. In this scenario playing the hiding game means your Screamer "star" gets hold of the Relic and you get to Summon stuff into midfield. That makes your life easier. It isn't my job to make your life easier - it's my job to make your life as difficult as possible. Deploying in your face helps accomplish that.

Risking a "large amount of models" in this way isn't a disadvantage to GSC. It's just what you have to do to make the army work. In fact "risking" isn't even the right word. Like I said on the previous page, these dudes are going to die. You are going to kill some guys with Nipple Novas.

I don't care that you killed some guys, though. I have lots of guys. You can kill some of them too if you like. Makes no nevermind to me.
.

Learn to read my posts, I mentioned many times that GSC 'feeding' large amount of units stacked up in order to prevent freedom of movement is no problem for Tz FMCs.

Yeah, I got that from reading your posts. The problem is you're wrong about that for reasons we've discussed, which I'm disinclined to rehash a sixth time.

Theres no point arguing back and forth unless you want to do a test game. No one can provide any solid tournament and game data of who is truly better in a match since both Magnus and GSC are relatively new.

That's not the point of this thread, friend-o. The point is "anti-Genestealer tactics". You've proposed one - dominate midfield and shoot the GSC off the table - which has been roundly debunked. If you're Tau or a boltgun army it maybe works. You're not either of those things.

What you're now trying to do is turn it into an argument over who would win in a fight, because there's no hard evidence for either side in such a discussion. Unlike the discussion of your fail-tactic, which can be shown up by physical reality. I don't need to play a game against it to know how to counter it. That's how bad your tactic is.

All my posts are strictly my opinion and logic for a ANTI-GSC thread for players who want to beat GSC. So far you GSC fan boys has contributed very little aside from trying so hard to shut down tactics others share.

Oooh, salty! I'm sorry I'm not afraid of your lolossom Daemon Primarch of BDSM like you think I should be - it's just that he's not scary at all, and if you use him in the manner you're proposing I can shut him down easily enough.

Also if you read back over the thread you'll find a short discussion I had with a DA player who proposed some anti-Genestealer tactics which made sense. When they were going to work for him I told him so, and offered a few suggestions of my own on how I'd counter the stuff I could counter, so that way he's prepared when he comes up against it.

The only contributors being routinely opposed are the two Daemons players who think they can bully a win with their big toys. There are reasons for the opposition to such arguments.

 rawne2510 wrote:

shogun wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
Couple of things looking through that I would think a daemon player wouldn´t be doing. He wouldn´t throw too many dice at any one spell to get it off but throw enough to make you think about denying it. so 3-4 dice at the WC1 novas.

Remember that GSC got 8+d6 to deny on a 4+. In this scenario the LOC didn't get nova but if magnus did indeed use 3/4 warp dice then depending on the result the GSC could also try to deny with 5/6 dice. It depends on the position of magnus and fateweaver and which nova power I rather face. I said before that it could be possible that daemons could pull of 2 nova's and depending on the Strength it could be devastating. But at the same time I know that if you really want something to happen with daemons you better go all the way with your warp dice because it could bite you in the ass if you try to have everything. Also in this scenario it was not possible for Fateweaver and magus to keep flying without ending their move next to one another. So two nova's that are so close could also lose effectiveness. Still hurt tho...

That is my point Magnus throwing 4 dice would get it off on 3. Making the GSC player make the desicion to stop the first one or wait to see if there is another spell to stop. The novas would be the most devistating in the first turn so I would expect the player to save dice to stop it but lets say 3 success so would you throw 6 to expect an average or throw more to get a better garuntee. you can basically stop 1 which is what I want you to try and do.

Tru, but thats alway's the case. Your relying on an average when Magnus roll 4 warp dice but say it's a risk for the GSC player if he relies on an average to counter. Also never hear anything about the perils that could drop Fateweaver or the LOC out of the sky.
Daemons having great psychic power warp charge results and GSC failing to deny against the odds can still happen but that can also happen the other way around. Daemons can force the GSC player to make a difficult decision but the GSC player also can make that decision after the daemon activated their warp charge. I've also played deamons and every psychic phase I felt the limitation and randomness of the warp-charge outcome up to the point that I would use a whole lot of warp charge if I really need something to happen.

Everything about the nova power is random so I've seen them doing almost nothing or remove a whole bunch of models in one go.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Giving an advantage to deathstars is breaking the meta? Hmmm...

As opposed to maelstrom that gives the advantage solidly to MSU yes. Relic missions are basically the reason for star style lists.

shogun wrote:

Just look at all that gak. Holy Emprah. I mean, how is it even possible to care that 30 guys died when you have that much gak on the table plus a bunch more in Ongoing Reserve?

Rocksaw Acolytes and Genestealers seem like odd Summons choices against Daemons though. I would've thought 10 Whip-Morphs would be a better punt with all the I6/7 dudes mongling around, or maybe the Seismic Cannon Neophyte blob so you can take potshots at Kairos or something. Why'd you choose those units?

Magnus spawns a Spawn if he kills a model with a 6 to wound roll in close combat or using Baleful Devolution. Essentially you have to count on Spawns being spawned if you're fighting against Magnus - but since Spawns suck ass I don't think it's a big deal.

 rawne2510 wrote:
That is my point Magnus throwing 4 dice would get it off on 3. Making the GSC player make the desicion to stop the first one or wait to see if there is another spell to stop.

What other spell would there be, though? I get cover against more or less everything that isn't a Nova so I can let the rest of it slide - and considering your Warpflame is bumping up my FNP 50% of the time it might actually be a good idea to let some of the other shooting go off. Remember, I don't care that you kill guys unless you're killing significant quantities of them from turn 1 onwards. You're not doing that.

I also don't need to deny Summons - unless you're throwing a bunch of them, in which case I'd probably try to block at least one. I don't want big hordes appearing out of nowhere and charging into my combats. That's bad for me.

so I would expect the player to save dice to stop it but lets say 3 success so would you throw 6 to expect an average or throw more to get a better garuntee. you can basically stop 1 which is what I want you to try and do.

Your numbers are right, but I'm not sure they really strengthen the case here. You're only guaranteed two Novas. They're both as like as not to whiff, and now you're telling me one of them is all but guaranteed to be Denied every turn? I mean sure, you can roll all your dudes on Change if you like and maybe end up with five Novas - but you're still only killing dudes 9" away, I still get to decide where your Nova bods will land, etc etc.

 BBAP wrote:

shogun wrote:

Just look at all that gak. Holy Emprah. I mean, how is it even possible to care that 30 guys died when you have that much gak on the table plus a bunch more in Ongoing Reserve?

Rocksaw Acolytes and Genestealers seem like odd Summons choices against Daemons though. I would've thought 10 Whip-Morphs would be a better punt with all the I6/7 dudes mongling around, or maybe the Seismic Cannon Neophyte blob so you can take potshots at Kairos or something. Why'd you choose those units?

BTW, As you can also see in this picture there is only one little piece of space in the top left corner that could be reached if the FMC would fly from ongoing reserves onto the table. Only problem is that I can simply block that part after the fly of the table, even without those 10 metamorphs coming out of the shadows.

 BBAP wrote:
Why'd you choose those units?

simple: thats the only units I got for summoning. At the second turn I wanted the 4 rock saw unit so that I could drop them near Magnus and start sawing into him. If I got more neophytes then I would go for them but thats not the case (yet..).

I admit I haven't really been following this thread too well and that Genecults are a pretty tough match up for Daemons.

However, in these pictures why are the Daemons so tightly packed together? Can't they space their units better to keep Genies Further from the corner, giving more fly room all around?

And remember FMC's can fly while deepstriking. So, there is probably a few more places they could end up out of reserves. (If they wanted to risk it).

You small units are there to bubble wrap for the FMC who start on the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not getting Magnus in till turn 4 would be very very bad



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the picture directly above was turn 2 folding in to let the FMC move out. Maybe a little excessive as the small units would also look to move out.

Goobi2 wrote:
I admit I haven't really been following this thread too well and that Genecults are a pretty tough match up for Daemons.

However, in these pictures why are the Daemons so tightly packed together? Can't they space their units better to keep Genies Further from the corner, giving more fly room all around?

And remember FMC's can fly while deepstriking. So, there is probably a few more places they could end up out of reserves. (If they wanted to risk it).

Daemons still pack invulnerable saves But GSC can also field a lot of models but the are still Toughness 3 with a 5+ save.

The daemons are packed together because you don't want Genestealer cult assaulting the FMC first turn. To make sure that this does not happen the daemon player uses 3 bubblewraps to shield the FMC's. The daemon player also want to keep the cultist within the Void shield and the enemy units outside. If the GSC got a '5' result the can shoot with autopistols that got pinning. Cultist that are pinned cannot move to the back to make room for the FMC's.

BTW, I don't believe the FMC can deep strike after the fly of the table, and GSC formation gives an -1 reserves to the enemy. Deep strike out of reserves is not a good option, believe me..

shogun wrote:
The daemons are packed together because you don't want Genestealer cult assaulting the FMC first turn. To make sure that this does not happen the daemon player uses 3 bubblewraps to shield the FMC's. The daemon player also want to keep the cultist within the Void shield and the enemy units outside. If the GSC got a '5' result the can shoot with autopistols that got pinning. Cultist that are pinned cannot move to the back to make room for the FMC's.

BTW, I don't believe the FMC can deep strike after the fly of the table, and GSC formation gives an -1 reserves to the enemy. Deep strike out of reserves is not a good option, believe me..

I mean if the Genies cant start within 3'' then Mr. Daemon could put 5.5'' or so between units creating a larger buffer zone. Sure the further they spread out, the thinner they spread. But that applies to the field of Genestealers, too. (and at a greater arc, a greater degree). It really depends what he is using for buffer daemons whether he could afford to spread them a pushed out Voidshield. Keeping them inside it is the likely issue with that cluster. But the FMC's would probably be fine pushed back to the corner, possibly outside the shield.

But you do raise a good point about possible issues bringing in the FMCs from Deepstrike reserve. I see where you were going with that now. Thanks!

Goobi2 wrote:

shogun wrote:
The daemons are packed together because you don't want Genestealer cult assaulting the FMC first turn. To make sure that this does not happen the daemon player uses 3 bubblewraps to shield the FMC's. The daemon player also want to keep the cultist within the Void shield and the enemy units outside. If the GSC got a '5' result the can shoot with autopistols that got pinning. Cultist that are pinned cannot move to the back to make room for the FMC's.

BTW, I don't believe the FMC can deep strike after the fly of the table, and GSC formation gives an -1 reserves to the enemy. Deep strike out of reserves is not a good option, believe me..

I mean if the Genies cant start within 3'' then Mr. Daemon could put 5.5'' or so between units creating a larger buffer zone. Sure the further they spread out, the thinner they spread. But that applies to the field of Genestealers, too. (and at a greater arc, a greater degree). It really depends what he is using for buffer daemons whether he could afford to spread them a pushed out Voidshield. Keeping them inside it is the likely issue with that cluster. But the FMC's would probably be fine pushed back to the corner, possibly outside the shield.

But you do raise a good point about possible issues bringing in the FMCs from Deepstrike reserve. I see where you were going with that now. Thanks!

But in this scenario the daemon army got 11 horrors and 2x 10 cultist. If you make the bubble bigger you cannot have 3 wrappings. If the daemon player got more wrappings that that could work. But don't forget that FMC cannot fly backwards. If the FMC can fly towards the GSC army (nova) but cannot move within the 180 degrees flying zone forward/side the are forced to fly away or fly down.

It is still the point that you don´t need 3 wrappings. The horrors supported by the cultists will be enough

 BBAP wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Nope I did not deny the movement hindrance that GSC could cause

You spent two pages telling shogun he couldn't rely on Cult Ambush to deploy his dudes where they needed to be. He showed you how reliable it was. I knew how reliable it was while you were saying this nonsense, because I've made the same mistake you're making - you're assuming that because CA isn't able to reliably deliver devastating first turn charges, it's unreliable all round. That's not the case. I have enough models to block your movement and can reliably place them to do so.

however the long useless argument with shogun was the fact that he claim that GSC can deny swooping of FMCs on a consistent basis.

If you deploy in certain ways they can indeed do that - and the GSC player will **always** know if you're going to deploy in such a fashion because his entire army can Infiltrate (except CAD dudes, who sit in reserve).

My point is that GSC can stop you dominating the middle like you said you would try to. You're not even denying that anymore - your argument has transposed from "I will dominate the middle" to "I can cede control of the Relic and still get it back with mighty Nipple Novas".

I call shenanigans on this too, for all the reasons given above.

With that aside, yes GSC can deny direct movement of FMCs toward a certain direction(I never deny that in any of my posts), but it will required GSC to put a large of amount models in front of the FMC player instead playing the mobility/hiding game and many of them will have no cover besides the first turn shroud.

Why would they play the mobility/ hiding game when they can grab the Relic turn one and hold you off of it forever? Don't get me wrong, I'm a lot less aggressive with my GSC than shogun is, but even I recognise the value in taking the initiative in situations like this. In this scenario playing the hiding game means your Screamer "star" gets hold of the Relic and you get to Summon stuff into midfield. That makes your life easier. It isn't my job to make your life easier - it's my job to make your life as difficult as possible. Deploying in your face helps accomplish that.

Risking a "large amount of models" in this way isn't a disadvantage to GSC. It's just what you have to do to make the army work. In fact "risking" isn't even the right word. Like I said on the previous page, these dudes are going to die. You are going to kill some guys with Nipple Novas.

I don't care that you killed some guys, though. I have lots of guys. You can kill some of them too if you like. Makes no nevermind to me.
.

Learn to read my posts, I mentioned many times that GSC 'feeding' large amount of units stacked up in order to prevent freedom of movement is no problem for Tz FMCs.

Yeah, I got that from reading your posts. The problem is you're wrong about that for reasons we've discussed, which I'm disinclined to rehash a sixth time.

Theres no point arguing back and forth unless you want to do a test game. No one can provide any solid tournament and game data of who is truly better in a match since both Magnus and GSC are relatively new.

That's not the point of this thread, friend-o. The point is "anti-Genestealer tactics". You've proposed one - dominate midfield and shoot the GSC off the table - which has been roundly debunked. If you're Tau or a boltgun army it maybe works. You're not either of those things.

What you're now trying to do is turn it into an argument over who would win in a fight, because there's no hard evidence for either side in such a discussion. Unlike the discussion of your fail-tactic, which can be shown up by physical reality. I don't need to play a game against it to know how to counter it. That's how bad your tactic is.

All my posts are strictly my opinion and logic for a ANTI-GSC thread for players who want to beat GSC. So far you GSC fan boys has contributed very little aside from trying so hard to shut down tactics others share.

Oooh, salty! I'm sorry I'm not afraid of your lolossom Daemon Primarch of BDSM like you think I should be - it's just that he's not scary at all, and if you use him in the manner you're proposing I can shut him down easily enough.

Also if you read back over the thread you'll find a short discussion I had with a DA player who proposed some anti-Genestealer tactics which made sense. When they were going to work for him I told him so, and offered a few suggestions of my own on how I'd counter the stuff I could counter, so that way he's prepared when he comes up against it.

The only contributors being routinely opposed are the two Daemons players who think they can bully a win with their big toys. There are reasons for the opposition to such arguments.

Go back to all my posts and look them over, people like you and Red Corsair likes to twist other people's words.

Quick summary the exchanges (may not be in order):
1. I posted Magnus will eat GSC
2. Shogun took offense started posting pics of how GSC will surround deployment and deny swooping. I respond thats not how my daemon list will deploy and no GSC can not prevent Daemons from swooping on a consistent basis.
3. BBAP comes in and try to defend shogun. But can not prove that GSC can deny FMCs from swooping turn 1 on a consistent basis. I showed shogun how I would do things by collapsing the bubble by moving screening units backwards.
4. I said that GSC players either will play the hiding/maneuver game or risk sacrificing large amount of models in front of the Magnus player. If GSC decides to feed large amount of model stacked up, I will dedicate all dices into mind bullets to capitalize on the situation. And also preventing RttS of weakened units
5. BBAP and shogun argues/claims repeatedly that Daemons psychic phase is over rated so its not too risky for them to deploy large amount of units in the front in order to deny specific movement towards the relic.
6. BBAP keep using RttS as argument and doesn't read my posts completely about only targeting small or nearby units.
7. My statements about controlling the middle and summoning large amount of units to hold it is ONLY for the event that GSC players decides to play the hiding game.

So I NEVER claimed that GSC can't hinder movements for players that castled up. My whole argument was that GSC players will risk losing large amount of their army by doing so. THUS may not have much left by turn 4 and 5 to continue successfully contesting/controlling relic.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Go back to all my posts and look them over, people like you and Red Corsair likes to twist other people's words.

I've represented faithfully every argument you've made and responded to it in detail more than once. That's not "twisting" anything.

My whole argument was that GSC players will risk losing large amount of their army by doing so. THUS may not have much left by turn 4 and 5 to continue successfully contesting/controlling relic.

Right - and it's a bum argument for reasons I've laid out several times now. Here they are again for the sake of exhaustion.

You don't understand how GSC function as an army if you think "risking a large amount of models" is a thing that worries GSC players. Sixty models is less than half of my army. Your shooting on turn one is unlikely to kill even half of that. You keep insisting that the GSC player should play the hiding game because you think your shooting is scary. Your shooting isn't scary, and playing the hiding game allows you to control the midfield right away, which means the GSC player is chasing the game and is going to have a difficult time doing so. At this point I think you're deliberately trying to feed GSC players bad advice for some reason. Either that or you don't understand the army, and hence have no business telling people what it should do in the face of Nipple Magic.

You don't understand the rules for shooting if you think a 9" Nova will blow up a 30x18 inch brick of dudes in one turn. If you land at the side of a 15-inch brick and roll up a Strength 6 Assault 12 Nova, and all 12 hits wound, you'll kill 6 dudes max. The rest of the models are 10+ inches away from you. If you land up front you'll kill the first two units and the first rank of the second units, then nothing more. In either case it's a thirty model maximum from Novas on turn one, even if all five of your psykers get the Nova **and** they all land S4+ with plenty of hits. That's best-case. The less Novas you have, the more Denials will hurt you and the less models they'll kill.

"But but but muh beams and witchfires!" - I get cover against those, and FNP against some of them.

I can stop you controlling the centre like you wanted to originally. I can stop your shooting having the dramatic effect you think it will, both by positioning my models and by using my own dice to DTW. I have enough dudes on the table to hold you off for two turns until the rest of my Ambush arrives back from reserve, at which point I can eat your gakky ground units and then you have an even smaller footprint and are even less capable of denying RttS.

While I'm doing all this I have four CAD Acolyte 5-mans leaping onto flags all over the board and then RttSing freely, because your army is too small to fight my main body of troops **and** babysit the Maelstrom objectives. You don't seem to grasp how small your army's footprint actually is, and how quickly I can cut through all of your ground units bar your Screamers (assuming the Grimoire falls for you).


You need to Summon. Magnus is not enough to muscle out a win for you..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shogun wrote:
simple: thats the only units I got for summoning. At the second turn I wanted the 4 rock saw unit so that I could drop them near Magnus and start sawing into him. If I got more neophytes then I would go for them but thats not the case (yet..).

I thought so. The perennial problem of Summoning armies - having dudes on hand to Summon.

I look forward to hopefully getting some tournament winnings and keep building up my summoning. It'll be a mess keeping track of all the original army plus summoning but with practice it'll get faster and GSC players will start having instincts about what kind of unit will help the most. I'm thinking more bodies is going to be my counter to riptides. 10 neophytes getting into combat with a riptide is nearly as good as 10 acolytes or genestealers, the riptide is probably going to live either way it's just matter of it taking a long time to break out.

So for right now, I don't think players have to worry about summoning style GSC but that army is coming to a tournament near you!

 rawne2510 wrote:
It is still the point that you don´t need 3 wrappings. The horrors supported by the cultists will be enough

I would be careful with that.

If it would look like this:



Also don't forget that a big bubble like that would probably be in a piece of cover. If you got 2/3 layers of bubblewrap that got to move away to give room to the FMC the better got great results moving thru difficult terrain.

Then in the top right corner, you got a weak spot.


If there is no VSG then a unit could get a '5' result and get free shooting in the deployment phase and kill the cultist.


Then an other unit could get a '6' result and deploy 3 inch from the second bubble.


Its even possible that another unit get's a '5' result and shoots at the second bubblewrap so that the next '6' result even gets closer.

If GSC get first turn then the shooty unit could move forward and shoot again at the other cultist.


Then the assault squad got a way in.


If the units are within a VSG then the GSC could assault two units, probably killing them and consolidate forward.




It's not hard to remove horrors with 'daemonic instability'. You just need 10 acolytes or 5 acolytes that got furious charge (icon) and/or hatred (primus)

10 acolytes= 30 attacks = 20 hits = 14 wounds and about 8 kills.

About the whole GSC versus Magnus discussion: I think I have shown that the 'deploy in your face' strategy is all about forcing the FMC to fly down or off the table after the first turn. GSC could just move forward or spread out after the first big nova blasts that the FMC did and then the daemon player got to make that choice. After that it's all about the d6 strength the daemon player roll for his nova's. It can be devastating or it could do almost nothing. BBAP and I know that all other shooting psychic powers don't really hurt that much and that a complete toolbox of powers doesn't mean that much if your warp charge is limited and GSC can deny on a 4+/5+. There is only so much that you can do. It all relies on a few dice rolls and every game is different.

Lets say that the LOC also gets a nova. A daemon player uses 4 dice to cast nova with magnus and gets 3 warp charge so the GSC uses all his dice to block this and rolls so poor that the fail against all odds. Then Fateweaver and the LOC got a free pass to do their nova's cheap and if the nova's are S4 or higher it would be to much for the GSC. At the same time I have seen Daemons only succeed with one nova and it got strenght 1, meanwhile Fateweaver fell out of the sky onto the ground ready to be assaulted next turn. But even when GSC get two nova's in their face the can still afford to lose a big bunch of models and still play the mission with the rest of them. In both cases its still a good fight for both armies and I will leave it at that.

You are now changing goal posts by saying no VSG. My argument was with regards to the fact that there has always been a VSG in everything before hand since these photos have started to being used. (So cultists won´t be getting shot at as the extra shooting units are 6" away.)

8 killed so 16 blue horrors spawn and 2 die to instability. This is how it is played within ITC.

Yes FW can drop out of the sky . What can happen can happen. But you could roll 1 for all your ambush results and are screwed. That is what chance and probability is about with this game.

Novas - averages say Str 3-4 with 7 hits. ignoring armour and cover. so possibly 3 units removed. It is all about the averages.

So on turn 1 you are getting just shrouded if a character is in the unit. look to start shooting the units without characters as they don´t have shrouded and will get battered by the normal witchfires.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I´ve just realised. How do you deploy your characters. The only unit they can be deployed in is purestrains as they are the only units with infiltrate outside of your HQ choices which all have infiltrate except the iconward guy.

Cheesus, just play each other already a few times and settle it the old fashioned way won't you...

 rawne2510 wrote:
You are now changing goal posts by saying no VSG. My argument was with regards to the fact that there has always been a VSG in everything before hand since these photos have started to being used. (So cultists won´t be getting shot at as the extra shooting units are 6" away.)

How does a VSG actually work? Is it "friendly units" or "all units"? If it's "all units" then you have to bubblewrap the VSG as well as your FMCs, otherwise your dinky psychic shooting becomes even less formidable.

Yes FW can drop out of the sky . What can happen can happen. But you could roll 1 for all your ambush results and are screwed. That is what chance and probability is about with this game.

Indeed - but probability being what it is, FMCs dropping out of the sky is far, far more likely than a significant number of units rolling 1-2 on their Ambush. Especially if those FMC are casting multiple psychic powers every turn.

The deeper we dig into this psychic FMC thing the less worrisome it becomes.

I´ve just realised. How do you deploy your characters. The only unit they can be deployed in is purestrains as they are the only units with infiltrate outside of your HQ choices which all have infiltrate except the iconward guy.

All units in the Cult Insurrection decurion get Infiltrate - units that already have Infiltrate get Shrouded on the first turn.

As an aside - you haven't "realised" anything. You've made an assumption about an army you don't understand and tried to play it as a gotcha. Don't do that. If you're not sure, ask. People will explain things to you if you do that. If you kick up a stink about illegitimate HQ attachment without possession of all the facts you'll look like a wally.

ah yeah the detachment gives it to everyone. I looked at them in the wrong order and didn´t connect the dots.

I only have to bubble wrap to stop your shooting units getting within 12" of the building which means I only have to start 7" out from it as your guys won´t be able to shoot at all first turn.

 vercingatorix wrote:
I'm thinking more bodies is going to be my counter to riptides. 10 neophytes getting into combat with a riptide is nearly as good as 10 acolytes or genestealers, the riptide is probably going to live either way it's just matter of it taking a long time to break out.

You get 20 Neophytes on a WC3 Summon. Tarpitting can work, especially with Summoned units which bypass the EWOs. Mass Hypnosis on every psyker is a good idea too - they can bring a Culexus or SoS squad as Allies, but you can drag the Suits away from those things, and dropping even one Suit to BS2 or 1 can save a whole lot of dudes.

So for right now, I don't think players have to worry about summoning style GSC but that army is coming to a tournament near you!

I don't think Summon-spam GSC can really work. Daemons can pull it off because Summoning is the primaris for Malefic and they can bring tonnes of psychic dice, but ITC comp allows for a maximum of 6 GSC psykers with 12 psychic dice, whereas ETC allows for 8 and 16WC max, unless you're using a Psykana Division or Nids as batteries, which eats up points you could be spending on dudes. A bird in the hand and all that.

Telepathic Summons is a bonus power. It's an extremely useful and potent bonus power if you (a) land it and (b) can cast it, but it's a bonus. You can't rely on it.

 rawne2510 wrote:
You are now changing goal posts by saying no VSG. My argument was with regards to the fact that there has always been a VSG in everything before hand since these photos have started to being used. (So cultists won´t be getting shot at as the extra shooting units are 6" away.)

I'am referring to Goobi2 that is asking the question if it isn't possible to make the deployment bubble bigger and rawne2510 is writing that you don't need 3 wrappings. I am not moving the goal posts because I adres both situations with and without VSG. So I don't understand why you say this. Even so, it's not a problem that the FMC can fly but it can be the FMC problem the second turn if there is no room to fly again.

 rawne2510 wrote:
8 killed so 16 blue horrors spawn and 2 die to instability. This is how it is played within ITC.

Ah I think that makes sense. I thought an instability removal would disallow the Daemon unit to split any horrors but I can see now that that would not be the case.

 rawne2510 wrote:
Yes FW can drop out of the sky . What can happen can happen. But you could roll 1 for all your ambush results and are screwed. That is what chance and probability is about with this game.

Novas - averages say Str 3-4 with 7 hits. ignoring armour and cover. so possibly 3 units removed. It is all about the averages.

And this is the problem with Daemon players and you're doing it again. At the same time you say that weird things can happen but you would not leave it at that, so in the same example you mention that Cult ambush can roll all ones for cult ambush (71 GSC models roll 3xd6 and 2xd6 for cult ambush so you're talking about 11 dice that got a '1' result) and that Daemons get an average '3 units kill'. And why do you think that GSC units that roll a 1 are screwed? They're not dead yet and can still go back into the shadows and play the mission. These battle report photo's are actually cult ambush roll's I made and it is very unlikely that my Subterranean uprising units roll 1,1. But like I said the can still do their thing after that. I would have to trow abysmal results not being capable of blocking the whole midfield. And when I show this strategy the daemon players go into denial because they're always used to fly all over the place being invulnerable and the don't like it when GSC push them around.

So please show me what you would do in this situation:


Daemons just fired S2 nova and only the LOC could fly to where magnus is standing but didn't get nova.

 rawne2510 wrote:
So on turn 1 you are getting just shrouded if a character is in the unit. look to start shooting the units without characters as they don´t have shrouded and will get battered by the normal witchfires.

Everybody that's in the Cult insurrection detachment get infiltrate and the units that already got infiltrate (subterranean uprising included) get shrouded first turn. characters (apart from icon) got infiltrate so the patriarch and magus from the detachment that join a unit of neophytes or acolytes get shrouded first turn. So a few small squads don't get shrouded first turn, but the CAD-acolytes cannot infiltrate anyway so the are forced to deploy and go into the shadows. When I roll warlord traits-strategic I could also get 3+warlord infiltrate so that could help.

 rawne2510 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I´ve just realised. How do you deploy your characters. The only unit they can be deployed in is purestrains as they are the only units with infiltrate outside of your HQ choices which all have infiltrate except the iconward guy.

Like I said, Detachment gives infiltrate and Genestealers can only be joined by a Patriarch but it's not the other way around.

 rawne2510 wrote:
I only have to bubble wrap to stop your shooting units getting within 12" of the building which means I only have to start 7" out from it as your guys won´t be able to shoot at all first turn.

Right. Thing is, though, if it's "any units" who get the Shield within 12" of the building then my dudes can have Void Shields too, so you need to keep them off the VSG as well as off your FMCs. Is it "any units", or just "friendly units"?

Ok so let me get the scenario right. This is my turn 1 and I have just moved the units to position and failed miserably on my first nova.

1. Flicker fire the unit with WC2 using 5 dice from lord of change - 3D6 shots

2. Use a non D beam from magnus

3. WC3 Flicker fire from magnus probably 5-6 dice depending what I have left

4. Slash attack the unit with the screamers (I would have placed the screamer in the movement phase to do this so that I would hopefully get back to some safety. screamer would have the grimore on them as they are my most vulnerable units for getting charged this turn.) The screamer would if properly grimoired try to deny as many units with casualties as possible from going back into reserve.

depending what is left from units and how much board space I have left I may look to charge unit 1 with horrors but I wouldn´t want them to be sacrificed if too many are left. I would still look to position my units with run moves in a way that all my FMC can land in the spaces without letting you ambush and charge from the inside.

Next turn will depend how the board looks after your turn. I might consider flying some of the FMC off the board looking to vector strike a weakened unit if possible.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BBAP wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:

I only have to bubble wrap to stop your shooting units getting within 12" of the building which means I only have to start 7" out from it as your guys won´t be able to shoot at all first turn.

Right. Thing is, though, if it's "any units" who get the Shield within 12" of the building then my dudes can have Void Shields too, so you need to keep them off the VSG as well as off your FMCs. Is it "any units", or just "friendly units"?

I don´t really understand what you are trying to get at.

Below is the paragraph for void shields with regards to their capability. Only shooting attacks from outside the void going into it are effected. If both people are inside the void shield then nothing happens and anyone outside of the void shield being shot at from inside isn´t effected by the shield.

Each projected void shield has a 12" area of effect (measured from any point on the Void Shield Generator building),
known as a Void Shield Zone. Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target
within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield. If a unit is within 12"of more than one Void Shield
Generator, and so within more than one Void Shield Zone when it is hit, randomly determine which of the buildings’
projected void shields is hit.

 rawne2510 wrote:
Ok so let me get the scenario right. This is my turn 1 and I have just moved the units to position and failed miserably on my first nova.

No, this is the situation at the daemons second turn. I already removed the models that got the S2 nova attack and slash attack. I'am making the case that your FMC cannot fly forward without choosing next turn to go down or of the field. This photo was taken right after the GSC moved forward but before the metamorph assaulted the cultists.

 rawne2510 wrote:
I don´t really understand what you are trying to get at.

It's not specific to the scenario. It's a general enquiry about Void Shields; if my dudes get within 12" of your VSG do they also get Void Shields or is it specific to friendly models? I don't own the rules for VSGs and I've only ever seen them played once, so I don't know how they work.

 BBAP wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
I don´t really understand what you are trying to get at.

It's not specific to the scenario. It's a general enquiry about Void Shields; if my dudes get within 12" of your VSG do they also get Void Shields or is it specific to friendly models? I don't own the rules for VSGs and I've only ever seen them played once, so I don't know how they work.

Ah got you. Ok the void shield isn´t an area effect that covers anyone inside the 12" bubble. Think of it as a one way barrier.

If you are outside 12" shooting a unit inside you hit the barrier.
If you are inside shooting out you ignore it.
If you are both inside you ignore it.

Take into account the effect is determined as model by model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shogun wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
Ok so let me get the scenario right. This is my turn 1 and I have just moved the units to position and failed miserably on my first nova.

No, this is the situation at the daemons second turn. I already removed the models that got the S2 nova attack and slash attack. I'am making the case that your FMC cannot fly forward without choosing next turn to go down or of the field. This photo was taken right after the GSC moved forward but before the metamorph assaulted the cultists.

Ok you are saying its turn 2 and i am in the Psychic phase at this point and all my models are flying. In that case the rules are exactly the same but 1 turn further on.

shogun wrote: I'am making the case that your FMC cannot fly forward without choosing next turn to go down or of the field. This photo was taken right after the GSC moved forward but before the metamorph assaulted the cultists.

rawne2510 wrote: Ok you are saying its turn 2 and i am in the Psychic phase..

No, it's the start of the Daemon second turn Movement phase..

Ok.. so this weekend I will be playing in a RTT with my White Scar Gladius plus Culexus. Army has lots of Grav Cannons 10/Rhinos and Razor backs/ Melta Attack bikes/1 troop in pod w/melta. Grav bike command squad w/hunters eye (chaplain)/ 3 scout units combi grav

2 GSC armies will be there. One of them won the last RTT.

3 random ITC missions will be run.

suggestions ?

So back to general GSC tips. I'm not sure that It's worth sacrificing units to prevent Cult Ambush. Most of the time when those units come back in they won't be doing much. Unless you have summoned units that you care less about.

I think you should try to pick the important part of the map and control it. Don't try to play to our strengths of super spread out MSU. Put all the objectives next to each other and control that area. Granted it might be tougher killing the GSC because now all our bubbles will overlap but I tend to think that's a better game then trying to force awkward positioning by constantly sacrificing units.