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 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Yeah I'm not buying the who "It invalidates my collection." Argument, it doesn't you still have that army, its still in your collection.

This are still models you can make in your Chapter's colors and add to your collection. Not wanting something doesn't ruin a collection.

the way they are being introduced fundamentally undercuts and devalues the basic narrative of the Space Marines as we've known then for 30 years, and their associated spinoffs like Grey Knights.

Lets just agree to disagree.

To each their own. I personally foresee my current marines joining my bretonnians and tomb kings in the Display Case of No Return.

At least this time I got a chance to buy everything I wanted for the faction. I missed out on Tomb Kings and Brets and that still haunts me.

 Galef wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm thoroughly confused as to what battlefield role these guys will have.

if there's an assault squad, then yes, I would go with that.

Their Datasheet has the Troops symbol in the top corner, so I'm guessing they'll be Troops.

-

But for who?

Remember that there are whole Chapters of Primaris Astartes already.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
That's actually probably the best way I have heard it put and pretty much describes why I'm not happy about it. It's not that it's invalidating my army, it's that it's invalidating my collection. It's like collecting all your space marines because they are the big hero / warriors of humanity only to be told lol yeah they are scouts now that are second class.

It's working remarkably well for me; Soul Drinkers *are* second class marines with second class gear, and, frankly, second class fluff. Keeping all of them bumming around with out of production armour, weapons and tactical doctrine whilst *good* marines lead the way is something i'm genuinely looking forward to, and renders my collection even more fluffy - which is nice.

That said, the plasma gun is not likely to go out of fashion, and NuMarines will die to them just as badly as the originals - who will probably pay less to wield them.

Also means I can start on a new chapter with justifications. Even if it is probably going to be IF.

Rock on the traitor Gulliman and his hypocritical 'no one man can command a space marine legion... unless he goes and manufactures them in secret and against the law' dictat.

They do look like modern troops,with the scops and no bling.
They are pretty but don't really belong to the 41st Millienium :/

Y'know these guys will be fantastic as razorbacks are concerned. Squads of five have the same amount of attacks as a ten man tactical squad and the same number of wounds. So in that fashion, they're actually cheaper. Taking Razorbacks also allows you to increase the total firepower of your army, especially with the changes made to lascannons making the spamming of lascannon razorbacks a fairly serious matter that can gut some pretty high point models.

 Vaktathi wrote:
the way they are being introduced fundamentally undercuts and devalues the basic narrative of the Space Marines as we've known then for 30 years, and their associated spinoffs like Grey Knights.

Actually, it brings the performance of in-game marines closer to that basic narrative. Only for ones you don't own yet, though.

Amusingly, they're still meat for Tau guns.

 Luciferian wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
the way they are being introduced fundamentally undercuts and devalues the basic narrative of the Space Marines as we've known then for 30 years, and their associated spinoffs like Grey Knights.

Actually, it brings the performance of in-game marines closer to that basic narrative. Only for ones you don't own yet, though.

Which they could have done by saying hey we are remitting marines, here are their new states and cost and new models.

Instead they did that and said they are now super space marines meaning your old guys are crappy now.

One thing that I did notice is that the Centurions would work pretty well as "Terminator" versions of these marines.

Or use these marines as alternatives to Terminators if you don't like the angry rhino look.

 Luciferian wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
the way they are being introduced fundamentally undercuts and devalues the basic narrative of the Space Marines as we've known then for 30 years, and their associated spinoffs like Grey Knights.

Actually, it brings the performance of in-game marines closer to that basic narrative. Only for ones you don't own yet, though.

aye, though primarily what I was driving at was that Space Marines were already supposed to be the best of the best superhuman supersoldiers and all that. Reimagining them is fine, but creating a new, better class of Space Marines is the problem. Particularly when they otherwise are pretty much identical in terms of look, role, equipment, etc. The GK's at least had a specific niche and unique visual.


Reimagining them with new models and stats, fine. Creating different classes of Space Marine is the problem.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
the way they are being introduced fundamentally undercuts and devalues the basic narrative of the Space Marines as we've known then for 30 years, and their associated spinoffs like Grey Knights.

Actually, it brings the performance of in-game marines closer to that basic narrative. Only for ones you don't own yet, though.

Which they could have done by saying hey we are remitting marines, here are their new states and cost and new models.

Instead they did that and said they are now super space marines meaning your old guys are crappy now.

I think I personally would have liked it more if they had just said it was a new version of power armor, and if they wanted to make the Marines more like they are in the fluff if they had just given all the Marines +1 Attack and Wound and a better bolter. The way they're doing it now means they'll have another type of Marine to try to make different while still maintaining balance. It also does undercut the image of the classic Space Marine as being so over-the-top awesome, and while I'm not a Marine player that makes me kind of sad.

That said, I've only seen the short version of the fluff surrounding the numarines and maybe it will be good enough to alleviate all my concerns. The models are really cool, IMO.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
the way they are being introduced fundamentally undercuts and devalues the basic narrative of the Space Marines as we've known then for 30 years, and their associated spinoffs like Grey Knights.

Actually, it brings the performance of in-game marines closer to that basic narrative. Only for ones you don't own yet, though.

aye, though primarily what I was driving at was that Space Marines were already supposed to be the best of the best superhuman supersoldiers and all that. Reimagining them is fine, but creating a new, better class of Space Marines is the problem. Particularly when they otherwise are pretty much identical in terms of look, role, equipment, etc. The GK's at least had a specific niche and unique visual.


Reimagining them with new models and stats, fine. Creating different classes of Space Marine is the problem.

Pretty much, I could not have given a crap if they said, oh these are the same ones, lorewise, just with these stats/models we are trying to transition into a new scale.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
the way they are being introduced fundamentally undercuts and devalues the basic narrative of the Space Marines as we've known then for 30 years, and their associated spinoffs like Grey Knights.

Actually, it brings the performance of in-game marines closer to that basic narrative. Only for ones you don't own yet, though.

Which they could have done by saying hey we are remitting marines, here are their new states and cost and new models.

Instead they did that and said they are now super space marines meaning your old guys are crappy now.

I think I personally would have liked it more if they had just said it was a new version of power armor, and if they wanted to make the Marines more like they are in the fluff if they had just given all the Marines +1 Attack and Wound and a better bolter. The way they're doing it now means they'll have another type of Marine to try to make different while still maintaining balance. It also does undercut the image of the classic Space Marine as being so over-the-top awesome, and while I'm not a Marine player that makes me kind of sad.

That said, I've only seen the short version of the fluff surrounding the numarines and maybe it will be good enough to alleviate all my concerns. The models are really cool, IMO.

I have my doubts the lore will be good considering right off the bat they are breaking lore

Being worked on for 10k years
Emperor somehow never knowing about them
Guliman knowing about this 10k years ago despite not being a psyker
Genetics was strictly off limits ESPECIALLY when it came to astartes DNA

Then all that gets hand waved away for numarines. It's not looking good.

To be fair, I don't see anything stopping any of us from saying, "oh yeah, these are those new guys," with our current collections. Assuming that Primaris Marines have equivalent units for everything, of course.

 godardc wrote:
They do look like modern troops,with the scops and no bling.
They are pretty but don't really belong to the 41st Millienium :/

On the contrary, the reason I love the primaris sculpts is because they remind me of the clean lines of the basic marines we got in 2nd Edition, before everything was festooned with purity seals, and skulls up the wazoo. They don't look like walking reliquaries, they look like the space marines that made me buy space marines back when I started (not that I hate the walking reliquary look either, I have my fair share of robed DA veterans with censers and literal reliquaries on their back, but the primaris throw me back to the more streamlined aesthetics marines started with).

They still look like they dropped out of a book of rejected 2000AD concepts, they still look like 40k to me.

 Backspacehacker wrote:


I have my doubts the lore will be good considering right off the bat they are breaking lore

Being worked on for 10k years
Emperor somehow never knowing about them
Guliman knowing about this 10k years ago despite not being a psyker
Genetics was strictly off limits ESPECIALLY when it came to astartes DNA

Then all that gets hand waved away for numarines. It's not looking good.

Gulliman is a dissembler, a usurper and a danger to The Imperium. He has *always been this* as evidenced by The Unremembered Empire and its outcomes, his willingness to break the power of the legions except his own (effectively), and his insistence that his judgement of battle doctrine was superior to T'Emprah's vision which called for no less than 20 distinct legions and battle specialisations tuned to the psych and bio profile of his creations.

He has been consorting with warp tainted Eldar, a possibly heretical techpriest, and is ultimately responsible to no-one.That's quite apart from the possibility that the man walking around claiming to be Gulliman is a flesh puppet for some here-to-fore unrecognised Eldar witchery - something that would not be unprecedented.

In short, I firmly believe this is the start of Gulliman's heresy, and we'll see a new superfaction of humans at odds with both chaos and the imperium - with Imperial marines hindered or crippled by the numarines (Republicans?) turning against them from within.

I can't wait

 malamis wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:


I have my doubts the lore will be good considering right off the bat they are breaking lore

Being worked on for 10k years
Emperor somehow never knowing about them
Guliman knowing about this 10k years ago despite not being a psyker
Genetics was strictly off limits ESPECIALLY when it came to astartes DNA

Then all that gets hand waved away for numarines. It's not looking good.

Gulliman is a dissembler, a usurper and a danger to The Imperium. He has *always been this* as evidenced by The Unremembered Empire and its outcomes, his willingness to break the power of the legions except his own (effectively), and his insistence that his judgement of battle doctrine was superior to T'Emprah's vision which called for no less than 20 distinct legions and battle specialisations tuned to the psych and bio profile of his creations.

He has been consorting with warp tainted Eldar, a possibly heretical techpriest, and is ultimately responsible to no-one.That's quite apart from the possibility that the man walking around claiming to be Gulliman is a flesh puppet for some here-to-fore unrecognised Eldar witchery - something that would not be unprecedented.

In short, I firmly believe this is the start of Gulliman's heresy, and we'll see a new superfaction of humans at odds with both chaos and the imperium - with Imperial marines hindered or crippled by the numarines (Republicans?) turning against them from within.

I can't wait

GW doesnt have the cajones for something like that.

It could potentially be interesting, but they're not gonna make their core vanilla "aimed at kids" good guy faction into something like that.

 Vaktathi wrote:

It could potentially be interesting, but they're not gonna make their core vanilla "aimed at kids" good guy faction into something like that.

What's happening so far is exactly the kind of situation that could allow them to construct an uncomplicated good guy faction ala Sigmar instead of what we have in the Imperium; and end up with Good (republican), Neutral Xenos, Neutral Humans, and Evil.

But you're right, it's probably wishful thinking. The parallel universe where this is happening would be a fun place to live I think ;\

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Guliman knowing about this 10k years ago despite not being a psyker
Genetics was strictly off limits ESPECIALLY when it came to astartes DNA

Both of those are answered by the fact that Guilliman ordered their creation after the Emperor's interment in the Golden Throne. He didn't just wake up and suddenly know about them, he woke up saw Cawl and asked him the status on the project he ordered him to do 10k year ago.

Traditio wrote:

Rysgame wrote:Rule of Cool

You understand that this isn't a legitimate in-game reason, yes?

Looking cool won't help you win games.

These models are going to be Ogryn levels of trash-tier.

Not everyone cares about finding the most efficient use of their points in order to win games. That's only one out of three "ways to play" in the new edition.

For many, games are about an experience regardless of the outcome. The sign of a good game is that it's also fun even if you lose. It's too early to say how well 8th will do in this area though.

People just don't have the same priorities and for some, these marines are exactly what they've been wanting for a long time.

They've already mentioned a dreadnought happening for sure, so I could see a viable army where all your intercessor squads deal with troops and your dreadnoughts have the anti-tank fire power. I'm not super worried about the distribution of heavy or special weapons and I'm sure that as more Primaris releases happen, there will be heavy and special weapons. There's already that image of guys with plasma guns floating around.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
the way they are being introduced fundamentally undercuts and devalues the basic narrative of the Space Marines as we've known then for 30 years, and their associated spinoffs like Grey Knights.

Actually, it brings the performance of in-game marines closer to that basic narrative. Only for ones you don't own yet, though.

Which they could have done by saying hey we are remitting marines, here are their new states and cost and new models.

Instead they did that and said they are now super space marines meaning your old guys are crappy now.

Meh, play a real army then.

Zodd1888 wrote:
Bitter TSons player here.

Knockoff Rubricae with more wounds, attacks, a rending bolter, and pistols to shoot into CC? Cool.

2 PP lower? Not cool.

They're basically even as is in and you can see that from the Rubric set at how an extra 5 guys cost 6 PP. The ability to potentially cause a mortal wound doesn't seem worth the extra points considering the extras the big dudes get.

So I was curious enough to actually compare the two, and the thousand sons are significantly better, largely due to the sorcerer.

The sorcerer and 2+ armor carry the TS through melee. Primaris vs TS, all the bolt pistols average about .28 wounds vs .78 for the single warpflame pistol. The melee attacks of primaris average around .61 wounds, the sorc alone averages around 1.11 wounds with the force sword. So the sorc alone is basically putting out twice as many wounds as the primaris in combat. Even with the extra wounds, the primaris marines come up short.

At range, primaris will inflict about .555 of a wound each turn on average, compared to Rubrics .888 of a wound per round ignoring the sorcerer, who averages out a mortal wound a turn on his own if my understanding of psychic tests is correct. That means .555 vs 1.888 total, 3 times as many wounds. This doesn't take into account the slight edge of 30 vs 24 range, as well as ignored the sorcerer's ranged weapon given how short range the warpflame pistol is.

Basically, the sorcerer is amazing and carries the unit, putting out roughly twice as many wounds as the entire primaris squad. Even with double the wounds primaris can't really keep up with TS.

Which kinda brings back my point of "what are these primaris good for?". The extra attacks in melee (and wounds) basically just mean the fight the same as a 10 man tactical squad in close combat (as in, a decent melee sergeant, like sorcerer, can outperform the entire squad), while at range they aren't even that good, particularly without all the weapon options and half the shots.

If you played Tau, you have no problems being crappy, you are already, physically the worst race out there

And the Tau already received that with the Farsight Enclaves, that are more liberal, more veteran, more Tau than the Tau, etc... so... Welcome to the club, Space Marine players

 malamis wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

It could potentially be interesting, but they're not gonna make their core vanilla "aimed at kids" good guy faction into something like that.

What's happening so far is exactly the kind of situation that could allow them to construct an uncomplicated good guy faction ala Sigmar instead of what we have in the Imperium; and end up with Good (republican), Neutral Xenos, Neutral Humans, and Evil.

But you're right, it's probably wishful thinking. The parallel universe where this is happening would be a fun place to live I think ;\

I think a scenario like Malamis laid out would be really fun. Probably won't happen, but it would be fun.

I don't think it would necessarily have to be Guilliman being the "good" faction or him turning out to be an evil madman, but it would make me happy if it was some combination of the Imperium's insurmountable level of superstition and entrenched bureaucracy and Guilliman's own hubris.


Unrelated to above, I also hope they still come out with new plastic IG that have the "heroic" proportions scaled back just a little bit.

SilverAlien wrote:

Zodd1888 wrote:
Bitter TSons player here.

Knockoff Rubricae with more wounds, attacks, a rending bolter, and pistols to shoot into CC? Cool.

2 PP lower? Not cool.

They're basically even as is in and you can see that from the Rubric set at how an extra 5 guys cost 6 PP. The ability to potentially cause a mortal wound doesn't seem worth the extra points considering the extras the big dudes get.

So I was curious enough to actually compare the two, and the thousand sons are significantly better, largely due to the sorcerer.

The sorcerer and 2+ armor carry the TS through melee. Primaris vs TS, all the bolt pistols average about .28 wounds vs .78 for the single warpflame pistol. The melee attacks of primaris average around .61 wounds, the sorc alone averages around 1.11 wounds with the force sword. So the sorc alone is basically putting out twice as many wounds as the primaris in combat. Even with the extra wounds, the primaris marines come up short.

At range, primaris will inflict about .555 of a wound each turn on average, compared to Rubrics .888 of a wound per round ignoring the sorcerer, who averages out a mortal wound a turn on his own if my understanding of psychic tests is correct. That means .555 vs 1.888 total, 3 times as many wounds. This doesn't take into account the slight edge of 30 vs 24 range, as well as ignored the sorcerer's ranged weapon given how short range the warpflame pistol is.

Basically, the sorcerer is amazing and carries the unit, putting out roughly twice as many wounds as the entire primaris squad. Even with double the wounds primaris can't really keep up with TS.

Which kinda brings back my point of "what are these primaris good for?". The extra attacks in melee (and wounds) basically just mean the fight the same as a 10 man tactical squad in close combat (as in, a decent melee sergeant, like sorcerer, can outperform the entire squad), while at range they aren't even that good, particularly without all the weapon options and half the shots.

Well, their role almost certainly isn't dealing with rubrics. I mean, rubric marines are basically set up to be perfect counters for the primaris (because they have no multi-wound weapons besides that krak grenade). So yeah, in a straight fight, rubrics will wipe the floor with them (though the primaris will hold out longer than tacticals, but those same tacticals will be able to bring to bear multi-wound weapons).

As for their actual role? Hard to tell without seeing everything else. But they seem quite flexible in terms of dealing with other conventional infantry. A S4 AP -1 bolter is actually quite good against most conventional units, extra wounds gives them some staying power (should be hard to shift from cover), and they can remain pretty mobile. They're even half decent in assault (two attacks and a pistol). So my guess is their role is a tough, all-round objective grabber.

Rubrics are a horrible matchup for them to face because while they are pretty good against conventional infantry, their lack of multi-wound weapons basically hands the rubrics a 2+ save on a platter. It is no surprise the rubrics end up wiping the floor with them. But the primaris profile itself seems like a better distillation of a flexible tactical marine than the current weapon-caddies. If we see more things supporting the wall-o-bolters playstyle, then intercessors may well get pretty scary. As a basic trooper though, I quite like them and if the PL is anything to go by, they aren't costing an arm and a leg in comparison to tacticals (though the loss of special weapons definitely does take out some of their anti-big-stuff flexibility, my guess is we'll get that in a different primaris formation).

I think the observation that these squads are more like the legion formations is an astute one. My guess is each squad type will be a lot more mono-role than the more flexible codex astartes squads. All I know is that I would never in 10,000 years take a naked tactical squad, but a naked intercessor squad actually sounds like a decent pick. They can't deal with big beasties, but they handle most line infantry well, are decent in an assault (unlike tacticals) and can stand and hold ground super effectively due to the extra wound. Park 'em on an objective and 2W and a 2+ save are hard to beat.

But we'll need to see what the support for primaris marines looks like. There may be buffs and extras that alter things considerably from the baseline. But cheap, tough anti-infantry isn't a terrible thing.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
the way they are being introduced fundamentally undercuts and devalues the basic narrative of the Space Marines as we've known then for 30 years, and their associated spinoffs like Grey Knights.

Actually, it brings the performance of in-game marines closer to that basic narrative. Only for ones you don't own yet, though.

aye, though primarily what I was driving at was that Space Marines were already supposed to be the best of the best superhuman supersoldiers and all that. Reimagining them is fine, but creating a new, better class of Space Marines is the problem. Particularly when they otherwise are pretty much identical in terms of look, role, equipment, etc. The GK's at least had a specific niche and unique visual.


Reimagining them with new models and stats, fine. Creating different classes of Space Marine is the problem.

That's the thing. The statline and models are everything I would have ever wanted GW to do with Space Marines. They have a statline and gear that actually reflects their fluff (at least, far better than the old statline, which was hilariously off), and the models themselves are gorgeous. These are the guys that should be slowly replacing the entire old space marine model lines. Instead, we get a really ham-fisted bit of fluff that forces them into more unneeded places than a Republican panel on women's rights, while separating them as a unique and better version of something that already should have been one of the toppest of dogs that already had several unique and better versions running around.

This is something that should have been entirely effortless on GW's part, and instead they get caught up in their own hype so much that they end up walking all over their own background material for no good reason.

So most of the CSM miniature line is ancient and looks terrible compared to most of the loyalist marine line and what do they do? They make more loyalist marine kits.

They look great but if Chaos marines don't get a resculpt soon I'm going to be pissed that they're spending resources on making kits nobody asked for.

Isn't "Better Marines" the reason AM and Orks and Tyrannids wound up on the shelf the first time?

So far, they're nice models. But otherwise NuMarines are incredibly boring. . .

Not interested.

More interested to see if Sternguard still get special ammunition that makes their guns better than the NuMarine guns. And if so, why would I use NuMarines other than for some sort of power-fantasy where I also can't get Terminators?