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I honestly think a stygies brigade will be my way to go or at least stygies heavy and no cawl . I play a lot of tournament players in my local club and the meta is very chaos and melee heavy these days. Getting the chance of infiltrating is just crazy good and i am getting more and more frustrated with dakkastelans and how easy they are to tie up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/06 20:34:03
Well I read what you all say but if that was the case the only thing we miss is a good way to get more cp and a good screener.
And that said I build my ad mech with out much troops and add a
Guard batt. Not to mention the 4 infantry with heavy mortars commanders but what really like is 2* bullgryns with 4+ invu and taurox. Chargeeeee
I think a Stygies brigade can work but you are going to be using way less Dakkabots. Maybe just 1 set of 2 and bring the datasmith. Cawl/Wrath of mars adds immense value to the dakkabots in a way that no other forgeworld can. EDIT: actually, a third ONager would do you much better than the bots. The bots aren't bringing anything to Stygies that another unit can't already do.
Stygies brigades would favor a heavy stack of dragoons, at least two units of multiple dragoons to take advantage of their great bonuses. I would also stack up a good amount of rangers with the arquebus to take advantage of being tough at range.
THe good point blank units in admech are the (1) Dragoon, (2) Electropriests, and (3) kind of the plasma guns? If you are running a stygies brigade then you have the points to half infiltrate all of these units at least 50% up the board so that they can get into the critical 18" threat range. The big reason that plasma calivers suck is that they only shoot at 18", but if you could get your boys exactly 21" away, then they could consistently get into range while still being 12" out for the -1.
A stygies brigade will need at least 1 20 stack of priests though. You need some kind of bomb to threaten your opponent with damage and a stygies brigade has a whole lot of leftover points if you are running small bots and no Cawl.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/06 21:34:29
1 Dominus w/ Erad Ray & Macrostubber, taking the Prime Hermeticon warlord trait. (And the Psuedogenator for better stabbing).
3 10-Man Infiltrators to flavour.
(I've just given the Carbines + Swords combo a good bash; the AP was rather handy).
1 Icarian Onager for good measure.
Ran the detatchment as Stygies, mostly because the Stygies stuff best fits my flower-camo army, but crucially because of the spooky bush strategem that lets you, basically, deep strike during deployment.
Dump yourself where you fancy, making full use of the various lovely bonuses your Domini can hand out to Sicarians.
That -1 to hit shtick? That's just a happy bonus should you get stranded after wiping out your target.
This little list here is silly, definitely. Had a good chance to pull off the main mechanics of this against an army of Dark Reapers with a Hemlock and Wave Serpent. (Anti-tank lists against stickmen... nah)
As one-sided as the match was, it did still highlight rather well the capabilities of such a list, seeing just how much use I can get out of the Hermeticon WT.
Under no illusion that any normal amount of shooting will can this list. After all, a 5-man Sicarian unit is just as durable as a 10-man Skittle unit (ignoring morale).
,
Having the Hermeticon Dominus around the Infiltrators makes them super efficient, oh aye.
Hell, bloody good job they did nerf the Stickarians, because they really do their jobs proper-like despite.
----
I've a lot of interest in making Melée AdMech lists work. Already had fine results from Kastelan Deathstars, and that was from the index. Certainly next on my list to see how much further I can take those.
Specifiying in one notion, and taking enough of it to see how it performs, gives plenty of insight into their capablity as a modular list part. Always RPS with such things, but all the while working towards a Melée TAC list.
Marius Xerxes wrote: I'm not concerned with playing against it. I am looking to play with it.
Oh. Well, you'd be sinking a lot of points and CP into it. Especially if you are bringing an HQ for them. Your choices are essentially Pask, two Lemons, and Cadian or Tallarn and three Lemons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/06 21:59:31
Yes priests are very important for stygies.
And i was thinking, for 2cp we can shoot with an infatry unit at a unit that deepstruck within 12 inches. This is massive since our screens are kind of a mess atm. So which unit would do this best? 10 vanguard with 3 calivers, infiltrators? Priests?
Iago40k wrote: Yes priests are very important for stygies.
And i was thinking, for 2cp we can shoot with an infatry unit at a unit that deepstruck within 12 inches. This is massive since our screens are kind of a mess atm. So which unit would do this best? 10 vanguard with 3 calivers, infiltrators? Priests?
Suzuteo wrote: Oh. Well, you'd be sinking a lot of points and CP into it. Especially if you are bringing an HQ for them. Your choices are essentially Pask, two Lemons, and Cadian or Tallarn and three Lemons.
You have to be Tallarn to use that Stratagem to "outflank" 3 units. No Pask or Cadians allowed.
I was looking at Hellhounds, personally.
16" range plus being changed to be 2D6 hits seems perfect for tagging backfield camping units like AL Cultists and any other small or fragile unit types that normally carry the -1 to hit over 12". HH doesn't care since it auto hits. Plus, with it hovering at 15-16" away, the unit would have to shift off its spot if it wanted to maximize any kind of rapid fire weapons they have. Also helps keep is safer from an assault by making the distance being a fairly high roll (10+ easily)
HQ could be either a cheap character or a Tank commander. Though a waste of its BS 3, a Russ with trips flamers would do work as well. Tallarn tank commander can order itself now (also changed in the codex) to move then shoot or shoot then move. So it can pop on 9" away, scoot into range and then drop 3D6 flamer shots + turret weapon.
Tallarn also don't suffer the penalty for shooting heavy weapons after moving on their vehicles. So that also opens up the option of anything carrying multiple Multi-Melta's jumping off a board edge and putting a lot of hurt into something like a super heavy or knight.
This is mostly just a thought exercise at this point. But I would be looking at 500 pts or so of maximum investment in a Tallarn Spearhead. There are a lot of options and ways you could take advantage of their rules to match well with Ad Mech, imo.
Go big and roll 9 Hellhounds in behind enemy lines.
Also, yeah, wow, Myrmidon are almost 50% cheaper than Kataphrons, even including shipping from the UK...
So on the topic of using not great units...I've been contempating trying a brigade detachment with my elite slots filled by heavy bolter servitors - give that enginseer in the brigade something to babysit. But then I look at guard heavy weapons teams and realise just how badly pointed Servitors are... but to experiment with a brigade they seem a bit more useful than 3 datasmiths.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/07 01:04:50
Iago40k wrote: Yes priests are very important for stygies.
And i was thinking, for 2cp we can shoot with an infatry unit at a unit that deepstruck within 12 inches. This is massive since our screens are kind of a mess atm. So which unit would do this best? 10 vanguard with 3 calivers, infiltrators? Priests?
too bad it specifies infantry
Well thats not too bad actually. I mean a full squad of vanguard with 3 calivers can out a dent into anything. I wouldnt use breacher or destroyer for this job. Destroyer would be great but their price tag is just insane.
As anyone tried out plasma Destroyers with the Ryza stratagem and +1 to Hit for Kataphrons/Kastelans ? Not looking to know if they're the best thing ever, just if they're effective. I had an idea to make prettier Kataphrons by using Bullgryns (they're cheaper too) converted with Destroyers pieces. I love the idea of 3 meters tall Servitors better than little tank servitors. That'd be a start for a more CC-centered army composition. They'd fill the much-needed anti-armour roles in my army, while I'd go with a bunch of Sicarians and a Prime Hermeticon Dominus in CC. I noted that I actually liked big messy fights in the center of the board from my game against Death Guard yesterday, it makes for the most funny results sometimes. I'd like to try it out more. I still believe in CC Vanguards !
Aaranis wrote: As anyone tried out plasma Destroyers with the Ryza stratagem and +1 to Hit for Kataphrons/Kastelans ? Not looking to know if they're the best thing ever, just if they're effective. I had an idea to make prettier Kataphrons by using Bullgryns (they're cheaper too) converted with Destroyers pieces. I love the idea of 3 meters tall Servitors better than little tank servitors. That'd be a start for a more CC-centered army composition. They'd fill the much-needed anti-armour roles in my army, while I'd go with a bunch of Sicarians and a Prime Hermeticon Dominus in CC. I noted that I actually liked big messy fights in the center of the board from my game against Death Guard yesterday, it makes for the most funny results sometimes. I'd like to try it out more. I still believe in CC Vanguards !
Against the right target its really good. You'd expect overcharged destroyers to make their points back against the right targets.
The problem is its 3 CP a go, so you are probably only using it once or twice if you do nothing else. Without at least the Ryza stratagem though destroyers become a bit crap (unless you get lucky).
Aaranis wrote: As anyone tried out plasma Destroyers with the Ryza stratagem and +1 to Hit for Kataphrons/Kastelans ? Not looking to know if they're the best thing ever, just if they're effective. I had an idea to make prettier Kataphrons by using Bullgryns (they're cheaper too) converted with Destroyers pieces. I love the idea of 3 meters tall Servitors better than little tank servitors. That'd be a start for a more CC-centered army composition. They'd fill the much-needed anti-armour roles in my army, while I'd go with a bunch of Sicarians and a Prime Hermeticon Dominus in CC. I noted that I actually liked big messy fights in the center of the board from my game against Death Guard yesterday, it makes for the most funny results sometimes. I'd like to try it out more. I still believe in CC Vanguards !
Against the right target its really good. You'd expect overcharged destroyers to make their points back against the right targets.
The problem is its 3 CP a go, so you are probably only using it once or twice if you do nothing else. Without at least the Ryza stratagem though destroyers become a bit crap (unless you get lucky).
Yeah the 3 CPs means I'd use it only once to absolutely destroy whatever it is I'm shooting at. Rest of the time they'd just fire Overcharge with a Dominus nearby until they die I guess, that's how my fluff would justify the use for expendable Servitors anyway.
With the Ryza stratagem you can range from your 3 models dead at once to 54 Damage on Overcharge on maximum luck, so they're really shady to use.
I m trying . Mars with Cawl seems to benefit from a battalion detachment. And because I like Cawl rerolling for Robots onagers snipers but also seems valid for destroyers. So it fits perfectly for me in my detachment and I wanted those destroyers also for flamer overwatch in front of robots and 2 cp infoslave skull for deep striking armies.
Somehow a batt Mars
Cawl
Engn
Rang snipers
Ranger snipers
Destroyers plasma
Robots
Neutronager
Neutronager
Is superb but the cost is extreme. Won't let you get nothing else. And in my list I came short 70-100 points to include destroyers. Can't unless you decide you won't play anything else than pure dakka static wall. And I say this switching breachers for destroyers. I had stygia breachers but again.
Neither breachers stygia nor destroyers Mars for me at least have room in list. Destroyers maybe but 216 points breachers why better get a robot and a ranger squad more or an onager. It's just not good.Wsbs 4+? T5 6+ invu for 140-210 points?? Why? Icarus onager 100 times better cheaper just not troop. But why again get a 4+ armor troop instead of an onager? Just to spend 2 cp if not more to shoot one unit deep striking. Better have the onager take the hits and shoot back lol or rangers stock die while robot shoots back. It's stupid really gw with kataphrons have not done a good job.
Really I tried to put them in my lists useless a vanguard full plasma bla bla graia will shoot better in melee range with one more wound better armor and tons of dice. For average 132 points.
Tip is use graia batt with vang plasma and in melee if you use warlord trait you shoot plasma from 3 squads in enemy cc with -1 tough.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/07 13:31:13
Also, yeah, wow, Myrmidon are almost 50% cheaper than Kataphrons, even including shipping from the UK...
oh? where do you live? cause they're 35 pounds vs 40 pounds each for three. so about the same price. Do you live in australia? cause that would be an intersting meta if forge world didn't get the double price treatment GW products get.
wow I thought all mechanicus threads would have been banished after the last salt mining opperation, but it is really good to see more discussion on this topic.
anyways I was just thinking about a lucius style rushing army and wanted to have some feedback on it:
Battalion +3 cp:
Warlord: volkite Tech priest
enginseer
10 plasma vanguard for deep striking -1cp
10 arc vanguard for deepstriking -1cp
rangers
infiltrators w/ tasers
infiltrators w/ power swords
x3 neutron onagers
__________________
fast attack force org +1:
techpriest dominus w/ volkite + solar flare
x3 dragoons
x3 dragoons
datasmith
2 fist bots
_____________________
lucius because that's what I painted and was my first FW love for the mechanicus, and it allows my guys a little more toughness on the field.
total is 2,000 points-ish and has a whole lot of fast movers and deep striking. vanguard and infiltrators over electropriests cause using the models I have / cost less as a base and throwing the dragoons at the opponent to mess them up. plus vanguard are fairly dangerous with their guns at assassinating targets.
turn 1 would be a mess as almost everything in reserve appears on turn 1 with the fast dominus solar flaring over, and since he is there I could use shroudpsalm in order to protect my squishies better. then it's just a mad rush over to kill the enemy fast and hard.
thoughts?
413th Lucius Exterminaton Legion- 4,000pts
Kaptin KlawJaw's FreeBootahz!-1,500pts
The Royal Court of BlüdGrave- 2,000pts || Atalurnos Fleetbreaker's Akhelian Corps- 2500pts
Looks fairly good, though I'm not sure arc weapons are really worth it right now. Though they make good infantry killers in RF range. Similarly, I was underwhelmed by the power sword infiltrators, but they could make an interesting skirmish unit with the guns.
Also, I wrote up another thing on my ideas about how the viability of some more nonstandard builds. It's long and rambly, so read at your own risk.
Spoiler:
I've been doing more calculations to help find other viable and point efficient builds that lean less heavily on Cawl+Kastalens, but can still be considered competitive at least at a local level.
Hordes: Honestly, our normal skitarii are cheap enough that, with proper support from a dominus, they can can manage at the same rough efficiency as baseline Cawl+Kastalens. Wrath of mars means we require corpus tech priests to match, though in unsure if either the unit or stratagem should ever practically be used for this purpose.
Vehicles: neutron onagers outperform kastalens here, if both are given support, until wrath of mars comes into play, though things like 2+ tanks do make the kastalens struggle a bit even with the stratagem, and anything with an invulnerable save screws with neutron onagers (though that is still the best weapon choice)
Both?: it's worth mention Kastalens are unique to our army in that they can deal with both tanks and infantry with proper support. Cawl is the easiest and safest way to support them, but a unit of plasma destroyers and the stratagem to add +1 to both units' hit rolls is also a decent alternative. Plasma is good, and destroyers aren't a bad platform for it with said stratagem, though they are still very fragile. Really needs Stygies or Lucius to stick around, and even then is a prime target. Still, this is an alternative was to add a bit of versatility to a list of somewhat specialized units.
Mortal wound spam: some enemies, such as Magnus, require mortal wound spam. Kastalens with wrath of mars can do this job well, but shockingly so can rust stalkers and fulgurites. The priests are actually the best choice with the double fights stratagem, and are more annoying for Magnus to kill.
The second mortal wound alternative is to look outside our army, as you may want some psychic support regardless. Inquisitors are a good choice with some synergy with our skitarii as well, assassins also work, and you can always spam any cheap psyker for it as well. This is one time I don't feel too bad going outside the army, lack of psychic support has always been an issue we had to deal with.
I also think it's worth mentioning why one might bother doing any of this. The biggest issue with Cawl+Kastalens is they don't work well with a larger admech force. If you are already running 1000 points into two units and you need lots of bodies and CP to support them, you go to guard for the rest. They already bring such a range of firepower to the table, you might grab an onager or two to create a spearhead but honestly after that I'd look else where. If you want to stay in house it is easier to build a well rounded mechanicus army without them I find, as we simply lack the tools to properly support such a unit.
So, personally I'd recommend Lucius and/or Stygies for a pure admech force, Mars Death Star is a more competitive imperial soup list of course.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, one more thing we should probably be aware of: the new shadow sword+volcano cannon is brutal and will likely be an issue for us. It'll easily kill an onager every turn with just the main cannon, or 2-3 Kastalens.
Stygies again is really worth looking at, we are going to need to blunt that firepower somewhat.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/07 20:29:50
The Warlord trait "Friendly <Forge World> Infantry units within 6‘‘ of your Warlord can re-roll failed to hit rolls in the Fight phase"
+ Priests (either/or)
+ the Strategm "Select a unit of priests, they can immediately fight a second time"
+ Charge/counter-charge
= Primarch killer?
Edit: Probably not. But still may have some mileage...
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/10/07 23:13:23
It's good, but it's a lot of tools being put together for a counter that may not be needed a lot of time. Well....
Actually I guess it isn't? I usually include WT when I build lists but, like relics, those actually change game to game don't they? The stratagem also is strictly optional. So as long as your have staff priests, you can just swap over to the WT and be ready. That's neat.
SilverAlien wrote: Looks fairly good, though I'm not sure arc weapons are really worth it right now. Though they make good infantry killers in RF range. Similarly, I was underwhelmed by the power sword infiltrators, but they could make an interesting skirmish unit with the guns.
honestly the arc guns are kinda crap on the skitarii but I already made 10 of them in 7th and not really feeling the drive to gut and replace all of them. maybe I will in the future, but for now they stay, and they take up a significant portion of my skitarii forces. I have been surprised by the heavy arc rifles once or twice, as they have enough rend and damage potential to act as a finisher to my neutron lasers / dropping plasma.
as for unique builds sure you can go crazy on the vehicles and dudes, but there are always drawbacks to that with our codex as stated in other closed threads. I do agree with your thoughts on indipendant FW's though, but I personally think graia and mars (without cawl) could still be very good if some more thought is put into it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/08 02:02:51
413th Lucius Exterminaton Legion- 4,000pts
Kaptin KlawJaw's FreeBootahz!-1,500pts
The Royal Court of BlüdGrave- 2,000pts || Atalurnos Fleetbreaker's Akhelian Corps- 2500pts
Yeah I had three Arc weapons (2 rifles 1 pistol) in a squad of Vanguards yesterday against Death Guard and the Arc weapons managed to kill some Plague Marines, more than the Radium anyway. I seem to always fail to wound a 3+ model without any AP.
I'll equip my Rangers with them in the future though, I like to keep the volume of fire of the Vanguards. Plus, they're really awesome-looking weapons.
I apologise if this has already been covered - one of the big arguments against them is their WS 4+.. what about tieing them in with the Warlord trait that lets you re-roll missed hits in the fight phase?
So looking at Stygies, we're looking at model at 115 a pop, 3 attacks on re-rollable 4+ (Assume Warlord is with them), 3 Phosphor shots at 4+ re-rolling 1s, T7, 2+ and -1 to hit at >12".
Strategms include ability to instantly swap out to perma double-hit, deploy closer (start T1 on a 1+ save with Shroundpsalm, which should help).
I apologise if this has already been covered - one of the big arguments against them is their WS 4+.. what about tieing them in with the Warlord trait that lets you re-roll missed hits in the fight phase?
So looking at Stygies, we're looking at model at 115 a pop, 3 attacks on re-rollable 4+ (Assume Warlord is with them), 3 Phosphor shots at 4+ re-rolling 1s, T7, 2+ and -1 to hit at >12".
Strategms include ability to instantly swap out to perma double-hit, deploy closer (start T1 on a 1+ save with Shroundpsalm, which should help).
I've thought about that, but the problem is that the Warlord Trait (Prime Hermeticon I believe) only affects <Infantry>, so no rerolls for our beloved Robots. The only way to help them hit is the Canticle to reroll 1s. If you're playing Ryza you'll reroll 1s to Wound, which can be interesting as well, but then you lose the invaluable movement abilities given by either Stygies or Lucius.
I really wish we had more support for the Fistellans, the price of the Fists in itself is outrageous.
I've fielded 2 dunecrawlers one Neutron and one Icarus for about 5 games now, and every time the Icarus does next to nothing. I'm seriously considering going 2 Neutron because I've magnetized mine. Pop a single command point stratagem and your Neutron is hitting supersonic fliers on a 2+ anyway.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/08 14:16:05
Exactly. Anti air duties can be also done from other weapons.
Depending on the list you play. Ranger with snipers or arc.
Always good if you field 5 man rangers to have 2 arc hitting on 4 with rerolls not bad.
Neutronager with rerolls 4+ not bad if need. And yes all can use gems for extra hit. All flamers if you got any plasma etc also nice. Vanguard with plasma v good.
But if you field more than 3 neutron you need to consider you total list for a 4th icarus. Depending on the flier and if we talking about mass armies or single vehicle Robots if shoot 4+ reroll also good. Not with -1 hit though
Standing in the light, I see only darkness. 
~1001~
