Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As per the rules you just typed " - declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up."

So it's not something you do after the fact. So you are somehow declaring to be putting 2 units of tallarn troops, and a tallarn stormlord with ogryns embark in ambush...and somehow at the same time not violate the restrictions in the stratagem which is 3 units, and all tallarn.

End result if you use the rules as written you cannot.

Wagguy80 wrote:
As per the rules you just typed " - declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up."

So it's not something you do after the fact. So you are somehow declaring to be putting 2 units of tallarn troops, and a tallarn stormlord with ogryns embark in ambush...and somehow at the same time not violate the restrictions in the stratagem which is 3 units, and all tallarn.

End result if you use the rules as written you cannot.

100% agree.

Wagguy80 wrote:
As per the rules you just typed " - declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up."

So it's not something you do after the fact. So you are somehow declaring to be putting 2 units of tallarn troops, and a tallarn stormlord with ogryns embark in ambush...and somehow at the same time not violate the restrictions in the stratagem which is 3 units, and all tallarn.

End result if you use the rules as written you cannot.

But they are totally different rules that happen simultaneously. By your logic you can never re-roll to hit because the rule that allows you to re-roll happens after you roll to hit.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Wagguy80 wrote:
As per the rules you just typed " - declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up."

So it's not something you do after the fact. So you are somehow declaring to be putting 2 units of tallarn troops, and a tallarn stormlord with ogryns embark in ambush...and somehow at the same time not violate the restrictions in the stratagem which is 3 units, and all tallarn.

End result if you use the rules as written you cannot.

But they are totally different rules that happen simultaneously. By your logic you can never re-roll to hit because the rule that allows you to re-roll happens after you roll to hit.

Given the result isn't decided until after the re-roll, that's simply inaccurate. Not to mention a fallacious comparison.

As you say, two rules come into play at the same time. You say a vehicle can transport things. The Ambush Stratagem says only three Tallarn units may Ambush. So you have to reconcile the two rules... this means no non-Tallarn units can be aboard any Tallarn Transports chosen. Doing otherwise and putting an Ogryn aboard violates one of the rules so doesn't work.

Codex/stratagem overrides BRB.

So it doesn't matter if it's ok with the BRB to put Ogryns in a Stormlord. The Codex Stratagem is specific on what is allowed in ambush.

Wagguy80 wrote:
Codex/stratagem overrides BRB.

So it doesn't matter if it's ok with the BRB to put Ogryns in a Stormlord. The Codex Stratagem is specific on what is allowed in ambush.

Completely untrue. Specific Overrides Generic, and in this case nothing in the generic rule is being overridden. Again, please point to the part in the sequence I have posted three times now that is having rules broken. Our Glorious Benevolent Overlord yakface has a great post about this though: yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that! As he says, "Restrictions always override permissions, where the two conflict." There is no conflict here. One rule says you SET UP in a different place, another rule activates when you SET UP, regardless of where it is being SET UP.

You've also not addressed the fact your previous logic means you can never benefit from re-roll auras.

Firstly I am deeply impressed by BaconCatBug and others in here getting so adamant about their position. Much like trench warfare.

However, it seems from my read of a surprisingly long 8-page discussion that there are two parties. The first part is of the opinion the rule allows a <key worded> (tallaran) model to set up an ambush. This model is also a transport and thus can carry models and those models are declared at set up. This seems clear concise and cited by the book as well as designer notes.

The second part says no because this overrides unit count and lack of special rule being attributed to the units. This is also a fair point to consider. However, this doesnt seem to be supported by anything other than if you don't have permission you don't do it.

Whereas a case has been made that you have permission and is supported. Honestly, we are really arguing about the number of command points spent, and the ability to transport one specific unit. Since there is no limit cap on the purchase of it.

It seems fair that a transport setup in ambush would also have the party intended inside of it, because for the intended party inside to come running across the field later just seems like an incompetent command - and honestly not setting up an ambush.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Wagguy80 wrote:
Codex/stratagem overrides BRB.

So it doesn't matter if it's ok with the BRB to put Ogryns in a Stormlord. The Codex Stratagem is specific on what is allowed in ambush.

Completely untrue. Specific Overrides Generic, and in this case nothing in the generic rule is being overridden. Again, please point to the part in the sequence I have posted three times now that is having rules broken. Our Glorious Benevolent Overlord yakface has a great post about this though: yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that! As he says, "Restrictions always override permissions, where the two conflict." There is no conflict here. One rule says you SET UP in a different place, another rule activates when you SET UP, regardless of where it is being SET UP.

You've also not addressed the fact your previous logic means you can never benefit from re-roll auras.

Wouldn't you consider the number of units an the faction requirement a restriction that overrides/narrows the permission granted by the stratagem and the core transport rules?
The stratagem does grant you permission to special deployment options, but restricts this special deployment both to 3 units (not drops) and the faction Tallarn keyword.

The shell game argument (set up in transport which itself happens to be in reserve) interesting, but unconvincing to me:
- Embarked in Transport and Reserves/Ambush are not mutually exclusive states or distinct places units can be kept in. A unit can be both in reserve and embarked in a transport, e.g. Drop Pod Assault.
- Every other instance where rules permit special deployment for transports do explicitly grant passengers the right to be in reserve.
- The ogryns in this argument can be in a transport, but do not have permission to be in reserve themselves.
- There is no inherited/implicit permission for passengers to be in reserves.
- The Statagem is meant to represent light skirmish troops outflanking. Transports, certainly superheavy transports and non-Tallarn are simply not RAI. Now, you can certainly bend that beyond the intended use, but you are still missing permission for passengers of a transport to be in reserve.

 Stephanius wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Wagguy80 wrote:
Codex/stratagem overrides BRB.

So it doesn't matter if it's ok with the BRB to put Ogryns in a Stormlord. The Codex Stratagem is specific on what is allowed in ambush.

Completely untrue. Specific Overrides Generic, and in this case nothing in the generic rule is being overridden. Again, please point to the part in the sequence I have posted three times now that is having rules broken. Our Glorious Benevolent Overlord yakface has a great post about this though: yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that! As he says, "Restrictions always override permissions, where the two conflict." There is no conflict here. One rule says you SET UP in a different place, another rule activates when you SET UP, regardless of where it is being SET UP.

You've also not addressed the fact your previous logic means you can never benefit from re-roll auras.

Wouldn't you consider the number of units an the faction requirement a restriction that overrides/narrows the permission granted by the stratagem and the core transport rules?
The stratagem does grant you permission to special deployment options, but restricts this special deployment both to 3 units (not drops) and the faction Tallarn keyword.

The shell game argument (set up in transport which itself happens to be in reserve) interesting, but unconvincing to me:
- Embarked in Transport and Reserves/Ambush are not mutually exclusive states or distinct places units can be kept in. A unit can be both in reserve and embarked in a transport, e.g. Drop Pod Assault.
- Every other instance where rules permit special deployment for transports do explicitly grant passengers the right to be in reserve.
- The ogryns in this argument can be in a transport, but do not have permission to be in reserve themselves.
- There is no inherited/implicit permission for passengers to be in reserves.
- The Statagem is meant to represent light skirmish troops outflanking. Transports, certainly superheavy transports and non-Tallarn are simply not RAI. Now, you can certainly bend that beyond the intended use, but you are still missing permission for passengers of a transport to be in reserve.

Would a transport that could fly then only be allowed to take infantry that can fly, as it does not confer any abilities to the unit embarked on it?

Lithuex wrote:
...
Would a transport that could fly then only be allowed to take infantry that can fly, as it does not confer any abilities to the unit embarked on it?

That would be a nice strawman, if that hadn't been beaten to death already.

BCB stated restrictions override permissions, yet the argument only works if you play obtuse and ignore the restrictions of the stratagem.

When you set up a unit inside the transport, you place them off the table, but mark which transport on the battlefield contains them.
When you set up a unit in reserves, you also place them off the table. Note that you need explict permission to do this.
After you deploy your army, it should be clear which unit has what status.

In the example, the transport is off the table in reserves, which it has permission to. Fine.
However, the Ogryns lack this permission. Ergo they cannot be held in reserves, even if you have a transport for them which may be in reserve.

Contrast this with a drop pod and a unit of space marines.
The drop pod is in reserves using the permission it comes with.
The unit of space marines is embarked, but also has explicit permission to be in reserves.

 Stephanius wrote:

Lithuex wrote:
...
Would a transport that could fly then only be allowed to take infantry that can fly, as it does not confer any abilities to the unit embarked on it?

That would be a nice strawman, if that hadn't been beaten to death already.

BCB stated restrictions override permissions, yet the argument only works if you play obtuse and ignore the restrictions of the stratagem.

The stratagem is not restricting the rule that allows units to be set up inside a transport. Only the transport itself is being set up "in ambush". Any units embarked on it as per the BRB rule do not interact with that rule at all, nor are they set up "in ambush".

And it's not a strawman, your logic dictates that a wave serpent or stormraven can never carry models that cannot FLY.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Stephanius wrote:

Lithuex wrote:
...
Would a transport that could fly then only be allowed to take infantry that can fly, as it does not confer any abilities to the unit embarked on it?

That would be a nice strawman, if that hadn't been beaten to death already.

BCB stated restrictions override permissions, yet the argument only works if you play obtuse and ignore the restrictions of the stratagem.

The stratagem is not restricting the rule that allows units to be set up inside a transport. Only the transport itself is being set up "in ambush". Any units embarked on it as per the BRB rule do not interact with that rule at all, nor are they set up "in ambush".

And it's not a strawman, your logic dictates that a wave serpent or stormraven can never carry models that cannot FLY.

Actually, it's a completely different case (movement vs deployment) and I feel it's just being put up here to muddy the water.
Transport rules clearly state which units may embark and disembark, whey they may do so and how it impacts movement.

What we are talking about here is the ability to stay in reserves and use special deployment.
BRB p. 215 "Tactical Reserves" states that "Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit in Reserve etc. in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. ..."

To stay in reserve and arrive as reinforcements, the UNIT needs to have an ability to be set up in reserves.
The ogryns do NOT have such an ability, ergo they are not eligible to arrive from reserves, even embarked on a transport.

The bespoke rules for every transport that comes with a reserve ability clearly grants explict permission to passenger units that otherwise lack this permission.
The rules for each stratagem that permits putting transports in reserve, also clearly grants explict permission to passenger units that otherwise lack this permission.
I've read the claim that this is just a reminder, but think that fact it is a necessary part of the rules to avoid exactly the problem the ogryns have here.

 Stephanius wrote:
To stay in reserve and arrive as reinforcements, the UNIT needs to have an ability to be set up in reserves.
The ogryns do NOT have such an ability, ergo they are not eligible to arrive from reserves, even embarked on a transport

They do, it's called the main transport rules.

At this point this thread is pointless. Either GW don't issue an FAQ, in which case I was right, GW issues and FAQ confirming the RaW, in which case I was right, or GW issues a special snowflake FAQ to say the opposite, in which case I was also right.

It's almost like following the rules as written leads you to the correct conclusion.

This is why I am a RaW absolutist, because it means no matter how GW decide to rectify things, I am correct in every instance.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Stephanius wrote:
To stay in reserve and arrive as reinforcements, the UNIT needs to have an ability to be set up in reserves.
The ogryns do NOT have such an ability, ergo they are not eligible to arrive from reserves, even embarked on a transport

They do, it's called the main transport rules.

The main transport rules cover what transports do in general, during the game and in deployment. Without anything else said, that is clearly normal deployment on the table, not deployment in reserves which isn't covered in the core rules. The reserve rules have additional, separate requirements that you have to meet to use them.

The Drop Pod Assault and Cloud-Strike rules do explictly grant permission to passenger units to satisfy this requirement.
You can fudge over the the lack of of permission and hope your opponent doesn't realize it, but it's not RAW.

An SM or Eldar player can point to page and paragraph for permission. All handwaving aside, you cannot.

And as has been stated multiple times by your logic if I put a Guardian in a Wave Serpent I am breaking the rules because a Wave Serpent can FLY and a Guardian cannot. Or a Wave Serpent can move more than a Guardians M value and thus "breaks the rules".

So, you have two choices, either you break all skimmer transports, or you follow the rules and allow ogryns to embark on the transport as per the rulebook rule.

Pick one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stephanius wrote:
The main transport rules cover what transports do in general, during the game and in deployment. Without anything else said, that is clearly normal deployment on the table, not deployment in reserves which isn't covered in the core rules.

This is categorically false. Please show me in the rulebook where it says the transport rules only apply when on the battlefield please.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And as has been stated multiple times by your logic if I put a Guardian in a Wave Serpent I am breaking the rules because a Wave Serpent can FLY and a Guardian cannot. Or a Wave Serpent can move more than a Guardians M value and thus "breaks the rules".

So, you have two choices, either you break all skimmer transports, or you follow the rules and allow ogryns to embark on the transport as per the rulebook rule.

Pick one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stephanius wrote:
The main transport rules cover what transports do in general, during the game and in deployment. Without anything else said, that is clearly normal deployment on the table, not deployment in reserves which isn't covered in the core rules.

This is categorically false. Please show me in the rulebook where it says the transport rules only apply when on the battlefield please.

not a fair comparison.

Of course under normal circumstances Ogryns can go in a transport that allows it. Under normal circumstances Guardians can go in a Wave serpent.
However when you want to do something out of the ordinary deployment there is a rule that that explains the interaction of the unit inside.
Cloudstrike: allowing a unit inside to reserve with the Wave Serpent
Drop Pod Assault : allowing units to go in reserve within the Pod that normally couldnt
(Taking it a step further) Land speeder storms allowing units to shoot out of it as well as Open deck doing the same on superheavies.

The Tallern Strategum doesnt give these allowences so i think precedence has been set that it would need to include the allowence.

GW seems to be pretty clear in there rule design that they will tell you how the occupents of a transport can interact above and beyond normal embarkation rules if they want that to happen.

 zedsdead wrote:
GW seems to be pretty clear in there rule design that they will tell you how the occupents of a transport can interact above and beyond normal embarkation rules if they want that to happen.

And yet again you're making up things. Reminder text doesn't make an unrelated rule suddenly not work.

Wonder how many pages this keeps going since this cannot be answered definitely without gw saying how itworks

tneva82 wrote:
Wonder how many pages this keeps going since this cannot be answered definitely without gw saying how itworks

Except it can. The RaW is clear and well defined. The problem is people making up rules, making up definitions and people arguing 'intent'.

This thread has been exhausted however, with all viewpoints, both rules as written and rules as 'intended' being laid out in full multiple times

On the first Ambush of Christmas my Colonel gave to me... Three Tallarn units, two Ogryn squads, and a Psyker in a RAW tree!!!

A more Christmassy sum-up of the "3=3+X" camp's argument, just for fun. :-)

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:
...

And yet again you're making up things. Reminder text doesn't make an unrelated rule suddenly not work.

Ambush - Tallarn Stratagem
Use this Stratagem during deployment. Choose up to three Tallarn units to be set up in ambush instead of placing them on the battlefield (only one of these units can have the Vehicle keyword).. At the end of any of your Movement phases these units can strike from hiding - set each of them up wholly within 7" of any battlefield edge and more than 9" from any enemy models. The units are considered to have moved their maximum distance.

Astra Militarum Codex + FAQ

Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit in Reserve etc. in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. ...

Matchted Play - Tactical Reserves - BRB p. 215.

The Tactical Reserve rule REQUIRES each UNIT to have an ability, i.e. an explit rule that permits it to be in reserve. Which makes sense, since there is no general permission to leave any units in reserve.

Clearly, when you place Ogryns in a TALLARN transport that you pushed into reserve with Tallarn Ambush, you have an engineered conflict between the transport and reserve rules.
As you say, Transport and Reserve rules are unrelated. The ability to embark on a transport is in no way related to the ability/permission to be in reserves.
Indeed, it is fair to say that the transport rules do neither permit nor restrict Ogryn Stowaways, since the transport rules do not interact with reserve rules.
Therefore, after we do the BCB shell game, the Ogryns are caught without a permission to be in reserve.

Cloudstrike - Craftworlds Stratagem
Use this Stratagem during deployment if you have not used the Webway Strike Stratagem (p.119) this battle. You can set up an ASURANI VEHICLE unit from your army that can FLY in the clouds instead of placing it on the battlefield. It can descend at the end of any of your Movement phases - set it up anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" from any enemy units. If you use this Stratagem on a transport, all units embarked inside it remain so when it is set up in the clouds.

To avoid this situation in rules that do take the conflict between reserves and transports into account, we have an explict permission for the units being transported, which does satisfy the requirement postulated in the Tactical Reserves rule.
I haven't seen any arguments in support of the claim that this permission is redundant and just "reminder text". Until such arguments are presented, I'll consider this hand-waving.

While Tallarn Ambush doesn't consider transports at all, I'd be totally fine with someone picking three Tallarn units, say two Infantry and one Transport, pushing them into reserves with Tallarn Ambush and then declaring that the infantry units embark on the transport.
In this case we have THREE (3), TALLARN Units, each neatly with it's own clear explict permission to be in reserves.

Only if we ignore the reserve rules or with confident hand waving declare them satisfied by unrelated transport rules, we end up with a carefully engineered rule conflict.
That would be when permission for THREE (3) Tallarn Units gets ONE (1) non-Tallarn unit AND THREE (3) Tallarn units to arrive as reinforcements.
Where they Ogryns go from there is anyones guess, but they wouldn't go on a table I'm playing at without proper rules support.

PS:

... set each of them up wholly within 7" of any battlefield edge...

Popcorn arguments aside - better not buy any sponsons for that hypothetical Stormlord with Ogryn stowaways. While I don't have a model on hand to measure, I think it is just under 6" wide without the sponsons. ;-]

There seems to be one specific idea in contention here: Where is a Unit Embarked in a Transport located?

BaconCatBug contents that a unit Embarked in a Transport is in a "Transport" location that is effectively nowhere. Others content that a unit Embarked in a Transport is in the same location as that Transport. One of these two lines of though is correct and resolves the question in that parties favor.

I find the nowhere Transport Location to be a hard one to accept. The Transport rules spend an entire paragraph making sure you understand that units in a Transport cannot interact with other units expect as stated by the Transport's rules or explicitly stated so by the Unit's rules. It especially notes that rules that affect units with a certain range never affect units Embarked in a Transport. These are rather pointless rules if the units are not, in some small way, actually on the Battlefield.

Furthermore, I find the contention that units Embarked In Transports to not be on the Battlefield for Tactical Reserves to be not the interpretation of anyone I seen or heard of playing the game. If this is true, it would actually be an illegal deployment to have more than half your units deployed in Transports even if every transport was deployed on the battlefield!

This being the case, I find the Three Tallarn Units only camp to be much more persuasive and far more likely to get the GW stamp of approval.

You are misunderstanding my argument. The unit is not "nowhere", it is "set up" embarked upon the transport, as per the Transport Rules sidebar. It doesn't matter where the transport itself is, all that matters is where the unit inside is, which is "set up" inside the transport.

The BRB don't care where the transport is being set up, simply that it is being set up.

You must declare when you select the Stormlord as a choice to be set up for the Ambush stratagem that the Ogryns are embarked. Which makes it an illegal selection period.

So the ONLY way to place the Stormlord or any transport that is Tallarn in ambush is without any non-tallarn embarked. Otherwise it's an illegal choice of units.

As I said before whether or not Ogryns can ride in stormlord is moot. They can, but if they do you can't place them in Ambush per the stratagem.

I won't discuss this any further. It doesn't need a FAQ it's plain as day and RAW.

Wagguy80 wrote:
You must declare when you select the Stormlord as a choice to be set up for the Ambush stratagem that the Ogryns are embarked. Which makes it an illegal selection period.

So the ONLY way to place the Stormlord or any transport that is Tallarn in ambush is without any non-tallarn embarked. Otherwise it's an illegal choice of units.

As I said before whether or not Ogryns can ride in stormlord is moot. They can, but if they do you can't place them in Ambush per the stratagem.

I won't discuss this any further. It doesn't need a FAQ it's plain as day and RAW.

Indeed. Trying to comfort other rules to get around the super, SUPER simple "Three Tallarn units" restriction is preposterous. RAW is damn clear. RAI isn't even in doubt. Just read the words and follow them...

Wagguy80 wrote:
You must declare when you select the Stormlord as a choice to be set up for the Ambush stratagem that the Ogryns are embarked. Which makes it an illegal selection period.

Again, you're making up rules where there are none. Please point to me in the rules where it says "The embarked unit must be a specific faction."

The Ambush stratagem does not deny or contradict the main rulebook, so you can't make up rules to match your own desires. House rule it all you want, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You are misunderstanding my argument. The unit is not "nowhere", it is "set up" embarked upon the transport, as per the Transport Rules sidebar. It doesn't matter where the transport itself is, all that matters is where the unit inside is, which is "set up" inside the transport.

The BRB don't care where the transport is being set up, simply that it is being set up.

True. The Transport rules do not take reserves into account.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Wagguy80 wrote:
You must declare when you select the Stormlord as a choice to be set up for the Ambush stratagem that the Ogryns are embarked. Which makes it an illegal selection period.

Again, you're making up rules where there are none. Please point to me in the rules where it says "The embarked unit must be a specific faction."

The Ambush stratagem does not deny or contradict the main rulebook, so you can't make up rules to match your own desires. House rule it all you want, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

You are ignoring the requirement for each individual unit to have permission to be in reserves and thereby arrive at a false conclusion.

- Every unit that can do today's equivalent of Deep Strike, Infiltrate or Outflank has permission to be in reserve in it's rules.
- Every stratagem or other rule we've seen that permits deployment via reserves has permission to be in reserve for a specific amount of units, often with additional requirements.
- Every stratagem or other rule that explictly permits transports in reseve provides permission to be in reserve for the passengers.

This isn't just some other similar stratagem with helpful text about a reserved transport, it's every way a unit may be in reserve, all to satisfy the requirement of each unit's permission in the reserve rules.
No reserves permission = no ticket = no mutant stowaways = illegal deployment.

In a permissive ruleset you are only allowed to do what you are explictly permitted to do.
You do not get to ignore the requirment for explict permission for each unit to be in reserve.

If you think you have an argument as to how the core transport rules provide permission to be in reserve, please present it. Thank you!

 Stephanius wrote:
If you think you have an argument as to how the core transport rules provide permission to be in reserve, please present it. Thank you!

I have. Multiple times. You sticking your fingers in your ears and going LALALALALALALA doesn't make you right.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Stephanius wrote:
If you think you have an argument as to how the core transport rules provide permission to be in reserve, please present it. Thank you!

I have. Multiple times. You sticking your fingers in your ears and going LALALALALALALA doesn't make you right.

You have claimed that the transport rules do not take into account where a transport is set up. I agree with you on that part.
I never claimed you are misreading the transport rules.

You are however ignoring the reserve rules. Nothing in the transport rules exempts you from the requirements of the reserve rules.

 Stephanius wrote:
You are however ignoring the reserve rules. Nothing in the transport rules exempts you from the requirements of the reserve rules.

The reserve rules don't care about embarked units. Ogryns inside a stormlord are not "in ambush", they are embarked on the transport. It doesn't matter where the transport is, the rules don't care.