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 Xenomancers wrote:

It is my understanding that in Gaza - Hamas rules. Palestinians elected Hamas in 2006. So Palestinians can vote and own property in Gaza - correct me if I am wrong.

Palestinians in Gaza are subject to Israeli laws, have an Israeli-issued ID card and pay most of their taxes to Israel, in shekels. Being American wouldn't you agree that taxation without representation is tyranny?

There is a right to property, but as all things Israel, military needs and Jewish settlements trump those rights.

https://www.yesh-din.org/en/the-right-to-own-property-for-jews-alone/

 jhe90 wrote:

We have to admit. It's hard to apply western standards out there. Western nations be eaten alive out there, thr whole regions dynamics differ greatly.

We are used to a peaceful content for last 6-7 decades on most part.

Middle East has fought multiple bloody wars to the death, win or die, and there's a very different set of rules out there.

It should not be forgotten that, within living memory, "western" nations openly slaughtered each other by the millions in battle zones across the entire planet that make anything in the ME since then look like wannabe sideshows

 Xenomancers wrote:

The article you posted states some where throwing petrol bombs - so it's not a protest anymore.

And the heads of the protest stomped on that quick. Because in previous protests, Israeli police came into the crowed and started throwing petrol bombs to make it look like the protestors were. So I'm taking that with a grain of salt. Though the effort to fly one on a kite was inventive, at least.

 Xenomancers wrote:

It is my understanding that in Gaza - Hamas rules. Palestinians elected Hamas in 2006. So Palestinians can vote and own property in Gaza - correct me if I am wrong.

Yes and no.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/explained-israel-s-new-palestinian-land-grab-law-and-why-it-matters-1.5495208

Here's an example of the games they play. And Hamas only sort of rules Gaza, but that's a whole nother mess.

 Xenomancers wrote:

How far back are you going here? Some of it sounds like war - some sounds like peace time. You also fail to mention the suicide bombings and missile strikes committed by Palestinians which provoked all of this -

Other than the last part about invading neighbors, that's the last four years. And what actually started it was two men with ties to a good half dozen terrorist groups abducting and killing three teens in the West Bank. Hamas leadership claimed that they had no idea that this was going on (quite likely given the nature of the men involved) but Israel immediately used it as an excuse to seize more land. However, it also started a series of reprisals that lead to a Palestinian teen being burned alive. When his family protested, they were arrested. The video taped savage beating of one of the deceased's cousins, who happened to be an 15 year old American citizen, by Israeli police, did at least get the US state department to protest.

Needless to say, gak went downhill fast following that. Hamas does not have the sort of solid hold on Gaza they'd like people to think they do, and so the locals started firing mortars at Israel. They didn't hit anything, but it was enough to get Israel to launch airstrikes, which did hit things, and then the situation spiraled out of control. Civilians bore the brunt of it, with casualty rates as high as 75% of all deaths in the Israel-Gaza war, resulting from Israels policy of flattening any buildings suspected of containing terrorists rather that sweep and clearing them. Given Gaza's astronomically high population density, this had the obvious results. Several accusations of violations of the Geneva convention (from the UN and others) had their investigations shut down by the US.

Interesting report, even though it's from CNN an therefor automatically anti-American according to some posters.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/17/opinions/palestinian-journalist-slain-press-freedom-opinion-mahoney/index.html

A bit of mild necroposting here, but I believe it's still topical (perhaps even more so today).

So far today, the IDF have shot dead 37 Palestinians for throwing petrol bombs and stones. And wounded another 1,300. At the moment.

I understand that stones and petrol bombs can really ruin your day and cause really severe injury opr even death, but I'd be very surprised if the Palestinians are even getting close enough to hit any IDG troops with them? According to the Israelis, they're still "trying" to break through the fence. And all the pics/vids show the IDF troops pretty much in cover some distance back from the fence.

It does seem - to me - to be a bit excessive ...

Sounds like the Palestinians have a death wish, and the Israelis are happy to oblige them.

Stupidity is universal in the Holy Land.

 War Drone wrote:
A bit of mild necroposting here, but I believe it's still topical (perhaps even more so today).

So far today, the IDF have shot dead 37 Palestinians for throwing petrol bombs and stones. And wounded another 1,300. At the moment.

I understand that stones and petrol bombs can really ruin your day and cause really severe injury opr even death, but I'd be very surprised if the Palestinians are even getting close enough to hit any IDG troops with them? According to the Israelis, they're still "trying" to break through the fence. And all the pics/vids show the IDF troops pretty much in cover some distance back from the fence.

It does seem - to me - to be a bit excessive ...

The IDF are not even defending the inner fence, the wire under attack seems to be a outer defence line to ensure you cannot approach the fence.

Then the earth, and I think that over looks or defends the main fence line. Even if there assult breaches that, there past a fence and the IDF earthworks above. After that it's fairly open ground ideal for counter attack by armoured reserves.

This is just sadly a exercise in futility.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Sounds like the Palestinians have a death wish, and the Israelis are happy to oblige them.

Stupidity is universal in the Holy Land.

I too enjoy living in Mega City One.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Sounds like the Palestinians have a death wish, and the Israelis are happy to oblige them.

Stupidity is universal in the Holy Land.

I think the palestinians have a desire not to be subject to an illegal occupation and ongoing annexation of their land. The fact that one side has guns and the other rocks has nothing to do with whether it's stupid to stand up for yourself.

 Da Boss wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Sounds like the Palestinians have a death wish, and the Israelis are happy to oblige them.

Stupidity is universal in the Holy Land.

I think the palestinians have a desire not to be subject to an illegal occupation and ongoing annexation of their land. The fact that one side has guns and the other rocks has nothing to do with whether it's stupid to stand up for yourself.

Hamas has already made one attempt to use explosives to breach the border and been repulsed.

Hamas are sending alot of people into what they know is harms way by the tens of thousands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jhe90 wrote:

 War Drone wrote:
A bit of mild necroposting here, but I believe it's still topical (perhaps even more so today).

So far today, the IDF have shot dead 37 Palestinians for throwing petrol bombs and stones. And wounded another 1,300. At the moment.

I understand that stones and petrol bombs can really ruin your day and cause really severe injury opr even death, but I'd be very surprised if the Palestinians are even getting close enough to hit any IDG troops with them? According to the Israelis, they're still "trying" to break through the fence. And all the pics/vids show the IDF troops pretty much in cover some distance back from the fence.

It does seem - to me - to be a bit excessive ...

The IDF are not even defending the inner fence, the wire under attack seems to be a outer defence line to ensure you cannot approach the fence.

Then the earth, and I think that over looks or defends the main fence line. Even if there assult breaches that, there past a fence and the IDF earthworks above. After that it's fairly open ground ideal for counter attack by armoured reserves.

This is just sadly a exercise in futility.

And ot be sadly honest. this is middle east. nothing is done by half measures, good or bad.

Ah, so the Palestinians should just roll over and die, allowing the Israelis to continue annexing their land from them with illegal settlements. I understand. It's another rendition of "Croppy Lie Down", updated for the 21st century.

Just noticed I wrote IDG instead of IDF ... must have meant Imperial Defence Guard ... not intentional ... just age ...

 Da Boss wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Sounds like the Palestinians have a death wish, and the Israelis are happy to oblige them.

Stupidity is universal in the Holy Land.

I think the palestinians have a desire not to be subject to an illegal occupation and ongoing annexation of their land. The fact that one side has guns and the other rocks has nothing to do with whether it's stupid to stand up for yourself.

Oh, by all means stand up for yourself. Just don't do it by lobbing incendiary weapons at heavily armed soldiers.

That kinda has a predictable consequence, don't you think?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
Ah, so the Palestinians should just roll over and die, allowing the Israelis to continue annexing their land from them with illegal settlements. I understand. It's another rendition of "Croppy Lie Down", updated for the 21st century.

Oh feth off. I'm saying that you shouldn't throw bombs at soldiers with guns. Because they will SHOOT you.

It ain't rocket science.

So what exactly SHOULD they do, when Israel can apparently do whatever it wants? Like I said, this is just "Croppy Lie Down" for the 21st century.

Your description of the situation makes soldiers armed with live rounds out to be something like the weather. They are deployed and given their orders by the same government that is slowly annexing the remaining Palestinian land. The point of putting them there is to delegitimise protest by giving people like you this stupid point about how dumb it is to protest near armed soldiers, as if the protesters were the ones that put them there. It's "stop hitting yourself" geopolitics, and it's a load of bollocks. If the Israelis want to break up a riot there are ways to do it that don't involve live rounds.

 Da Boss wrote:
So what exactly SHOULD they do, when Israel can apparently do whatever it wants? Like I said, this is just "Croppy Lie Down" for the 21st century.

Your description of the situation makes soldiers armed with live rounds out to be something like the weather. They are deployed and given their orders by the same government that is slowly annexing the remaining Palestinian land. The point of putting them there is to delegitimise protest by giving people like you this stupid point about how dumb it is to protest near armed soldiers, as if the protesters were the ones that put them there. It's "stop hitting yourself" geopolitics, and it's a load of bollocks. If the Israelis want to break up a riot there are ways to do it that don't involve live rounds.

There already is mass volleyes of tear gas and other area denial weaponry being used. there expending the stuff by the ton. (IMG Tags)



thats 20+ tear gas rounds, there not just mowing people down heavy machine guns and artillery bombardment.

Oh well that's alright then. They hit them with tear gas before they shoot them. feth's sake.

 Da Boss wrote:
Oh well that's alright then. They hit them with tear gas before they shoot them. feth's sake.

Whats your suggestion then? Let a several thousand strong mob of angry Palestinians cross the border into Israel?

No nation in the world would allow that.

Just IN... attempting to invade a sovereign nation may get you killed.

Well seeing as Israel doesn't consider Palestine a country it would be hard to cross the 'border'. Either these people are part of Israel or Israel is comitting war crimes, pretty simple.

Right and wrong is always blurred in war/conflict. What you should really do is look at the peoples motivations.

What motivates the Palestinians?
Reclaimation of the holy land - the death of Israel.

What motivates the Israelis?
Security. Peaceful coexistence.

You can not claim that these are not true statements. This is a bad place to tout idealism. Imagine if the power balance was reversed and the Palestinians had superior military force - there wouldn't be a Gaza equivalent for Israel - they would just be dead.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Oh well that's alright then. They hit them with tear gas before they shoot them. feth's sake.

Whats your suggestion then? Let a several thousand strong mob of angry Palestinians cross the border into Israel?

No nation in the world would allow that.

its 50,000 now across multiple zones.

there expecting 100,000 potentially.

Blurred? There is a reason there are laws of war. We can say pretty clearly what is right or wrong.

Also the death of Israel is a bit much. Most just want back the land that was forcibly taken from them. Yes a good chunck has been indoctrinated. But it isn't all unreasonable.

What motivates the Israelis? Also a bit much to say peaceful coexistence. A lot of what Israel does is not aimed at peaceful coexistence. Settlement building being a primary example.
So I can claim these are not true statements.

There are things wrong on both sides. But that is blatantly favouring the Israeli perspective.

 Xenomancers wrote:

What motivates the Palestinians?
Reclaimation of the holy land - the death of Israel.

What motivates the Israelis?
Security. Peaceful coexistence.

If only things were this simple. Just hit the bad guys until they stop doing bad things right?

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Blurred? There is a reason there are laws of war. We can say pretty clearly what is right or wrong.

Also the death of Israel is a bit much. Most just want back the land that was forcibly taken from them. Yes a good chunck has been indoctrinated. But it isn't all unreasonable.

What motivates the Israelis? Also a bit much to say peaceful coexistence. A lot of what Israel does is not aimed at peaceful coexistence. Settlement building being a primary example.
So I can claim these are not true statements.

There are things wrong on both sides. But that is blatantly favouring the Israeli perspective.

There going to be back tommorow.. This one's not over yet.

And there deadlocked at current. Israel is not going to give a inch and neither is Hamas. There both locked into a path right now until both decide to change and that's pretty unlikely.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Right and wrong is always blurred in war/conflict. What you should really do is look at the peoples motivations.

What motivates the Palestinians?
Reclaimation of the holy land - the death of Israel.

What motivates the Israelis?
Security. Peaceful coexistence.

You can not claim that these are not true statements.

Actually:

What motivates the Palestinians?
To take their homes back. The Israelis displaced over 700,000 Palestinians.
Religious zealots (take your pick of groups)

What motivates the Israelis?
To seize yet more land
Religious zealots (the ultra nationalist Haredi in particular. These guys should switch their arm bands to red instead of blue

I mean, dude, if Israelis were interested in Peaceful co-existence, burning people alive is probably not the best way to go about it.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Right and wrong is always blurred in war/conflict. What you should really do is look at the peoples motivations.

What motivates the Palestinians?
Reclaimation of the holy land - the death of Israel.

What motivates the Israelis?
Security. Peaceful coexistence.

You can not claim that these are not true statements.

Actually:

What motivates the Palestinians?
To take their homes back. The Israelis displaced over 700,000 Palestinians.
Religious zealots (take your pick of groups)

What motivates the Israelis?
To seize yet more land
Religious zealots (the ultra nationalist Haredi in particular. These guys should switch their arm bands to red instead of blue

I mean, dude, if Israelis were interested in Peaceful co-existence, burning people alive is probably not the best way to go about it.

The Israelis are/would be fine with peaceful coexistance. The issue is that even their opponents who could be classified as moderates want total genocide for all Jews, and the hardliners want it even more.

The difference between a Moderate Palestinian and an Extremist is that the latter doesn't even try to hide what he wants. Both desired genocide from day1.

The existence of the Israeli settlements proves the fact that Israel explicitly isn't interested in "peaceful co-existence".

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The existence of the Israeli settlements proves the fact that Israel explicitly isn't interested in "peaceful co-existence".

And those in the israeli government asking for Israeli Arabs to be stripped of citizenship, that call for the incorporation of settlements to Israel proper, to bomb Hamas HQ each time they say something they don't like (and this being Israel you know it's not an empty threat).

Israel is only interested in keeping statu quo, because there just isn't room for two modern states there (single state solution much less so).

Demographics, water rights, there are many issues that would be very painful to sort out between two sovereign nations so keeping the Palestinians as a subjugated populace not-really-a-citizen is the realpolitik equivalent of kicking the ball to the long grass.

I'm sure Hamas would continue to be violent if you stopped settlement building, particularly at this stage. But what it does is take any feeling of justice away from the average palestinian, making them more likely to support Hamas, since their concerns and their wellbeing is obviously on no one's radar so they feel they have to take matters into their own hands. I think it's probably gone so far now it's not ever going to be fixed, and all the endings are horrible. What I don't understand is partisan support for Israel.

The idea that Israel is now interested in peaceful coexistence is the "feth you, got mine" attitude. There is a reason that Israel has dismissed most peace plans. They hold everything of value and there is barely anything left worth taking over. There is a middle ground between genocide on the Israelis and just screwing over the Palestinians. What Israel wants is peaceful coexistence while being able to screw over the Palestinians.