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Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






The fact that people are upset about this is tragic really.

GW are trying to get new blood in the hobby without upsetting any parents/guardians. This isn't a bad thing. More hobbyists = more money = more updates, models and game systems. It is literally a win-win.

I often get told off by the store manager at my local if I swear, regardless of whether there's kids in the store or not. I find it stupid but it's his house his rules I suppose. I guess it's a power thing in his case. This is the worst thing you can expect and if it annoys you much you can always just join another group that is a little more 'adult'.

Embrace change. It isn't the strongest or most intelligent creature that thrives, but the one most adaptive to change. Be that creature.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The fact that people are upset about this is tragic really.
It's not tragic, really. People are upset because it is at odds with the Warhammer they know and love, believe it to represent trends that have negatively affected other hobbies and franchises, and worry that it could represent a change in direction for the lore. Whether this is true, or simply worry for worry's sake, remains to be seen. But it is a completely predictable, understandable, and not tragic reaction.

Ever wonder why people argue so passionately about boob armor? It isn't because they like it (or don't) or because it is practical warfare attire or sexist against women or whatever, but because it is a lightning rod for a specific change in mindset that people are either arguing for or against. Neither mindset is inclusive of the other's position, so people start to feel anxious when it feels like one mindset is winning over another (rather than the uneasy truce we currently "enjoy"). But because they don't understand where that anxiety is really coming from, the argument tends to come out in more concrete, and occasionally absurd, examples. For instance, I've seen people argue about boob armor within the context of 14th century pike warfare as a reason why 40k, with pauldrons bigger than small manned vehicles, shouldn't use it.

There's nothing innately wrong with these books, and at worst, you could say that they are amusingly misguided but adorably so. But people see a multi-ethnic group of kids with good hearts that are at extreme odds with a xenophobic, dispassionate adult universe, and they can't help but get that anxiety that the uneasy truce of mindsets is becoming unbalanced. They aren't worried about the books. They are worried about how these books will affect what happens next.

Unlike boob armor on Sisters of Battle, which affects the models and lore directly, I think these books are a separate curiosity, intended to be their own unrelated thing and as such, can be safely ignored from a viewpoint of how it will ideologically affect the universes.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 Sqorgar wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The fact that people are upset about this is tragic really.
It's not tragic, really. People are upset because it is at odds with the Warhammer they know and love, believe it to represent trends that have negatively affected other hobbies and franchises, and worry that it could represent a change in direction for the lore. Whether this is true, or simply worry for worry's sake, remains to be seen. But it is a completely predictable, understandable, and not tragic reaction.


I never thought I'd find myself agreeing with you, but here we are...

Englishman- you (and several others) are getting the wrong end of the stick. Getting new blood into the hobby is a GOOD thing. Hell, I got in as a 11-12 year old (although dipped my toe in earlier with board games like Dark World and Bluebird toys attempt at a wargame in Havok ('member that? Incidentally I sent to GW by the lady in Woolworth's when looking for Havok models. It's all her fault!)) and have never looked back.

Doing this at the expense of potentially diluting the brand, which is where a lot of these fears lie is a BAD thing. This is what people are riled up about.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/22 18:29:22



Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in gb
Major




London

I think these books are great. All ages gaming is a positive

Really, it’s all made up stories about space men by some fedora at a desk in Nottingham anyway, regardless of which age level 40k you’ve invested in
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
All ages gaming is a positive
There's very little on the 40k tabletop which is inappropriate for children, but from what I understand, the same could not be said about the Black Library novels. 40k is already all ages gaming. This is an attempt at making all ages lore, and is somewhat equivalent to making an all ages version of A Song of Ice and Fire. It's possible, but what's the end game? Introducing children to a universe they aren't ready for?

Really, it’s all made up stories about space men by some fedora at a desk in Nottingham anyway, regardless of which age level 40k you’ve invested in
That seems... disrespectful.
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 Sqorgar wrote:
 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
All ages gaming is a positive
There's very little on the 40k tabletop which is inappropriate for children, but from what I understand, the same could not be said about the Black Library novels. 40k is already all ages gaming. This is an attempt at making all ages lore, and is somewhat equivalent to making an all ages version of A Song of Ice and Fire. It's possible, but what's the end game? Introducing children to a universe they aren't ready for?


They are relatively tame really especially compared to more visual and direct mediums such as films and video games which kids have easy access to despite age ratings.

its rare to have any restriction on the purchase of a book - games, films and tv shows are supposed to but many parents buy them for them anyway.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
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"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Houston, TX

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Bossk_Hogg wrote:


Neckbeards got real bent out of shape over 6 seconds of lame in a TV series that lasted 75 episodes. The series had a lot of growth and maturity that would have matched its audience, who started at 8-9 and finished the series at 12-13. But these are the same folks who will sputter endlessly about bombs falling in space in Last Jedi, conveniently ignoring the asteroid bombing in Empire.


Pretty sure the bombs in Empire had propulsion and didn't rely on gravity.


Watch the scene. They just fall out of the Tie Bombers.

I'm sure there's some fanwank explanation. Star Wars doesnt care about physics... it isn't like you need to bank in space.

To bring this back around... I can't imagine any of the toned down lore in the books will seriously impact the adult grimdark man dolly lore. GW just wants to get kids on the cradle to grave consumer path earlier, and want a multimedia approach.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/22 19:14:03


 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps







Wow, all those space explorer kids are going to get a rude awakening. "He thought back on the carefree days of his youth as his planet burned. He'd been so carefree, so full of adventure. Now as a servant of the inquisition he'd just helped to execute his childhood friends, their aged granparents, the babies... ...all of them on account of the actions of a few tainted cultists. He thought of all the people he'd tortured and killed. Had it really been so different when he was young? Sylvia was a servitor now, lobotomized for free thinking, and Oto was serving a life sentence of hard labor..."

I actually think 40K is UNREALISTICALLY dark in some ways (how are there any planets left really?), so a little lightening to admit a younger audience doesn't bother me as much. It is a big galaxy, somebody must be happy somewhere, right? On the otherhand, I kind of feel like 40K can never really be suitable for children. I don't want my 8 year old getting invested in a universe where murder of entire planets is lauded....
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Sqorgar wrote:
 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
All ages gaming is a positive
There's very little on the 40k tabletop which is inappropriate for children, but from what I understand, the same could not be said about the Black Library novels. 40k is already all ages gaming. This is an attempt at making all ages lore, and is somewhat equivalent to making an all ages version of A Song of Ice and Fire. It's possible, but what's the end game? Introducing children to a universe they aren't ready for?



Eh, I wouldn't say that kids aren't ready for dark stuff.
The Brothers Grim and Hans Christian Anderson's stories, for example, were pretty dark by today's standards, and those were intended for children.
Remember Hansel and Gretel? That's a story about a cannibalistic witch who eats children by throwing them into an oven. Whilst they are still alive. That's some cult of Moloch gak, man.
Oh, and Bambi! How could I forget about that. You know, that Disney film wherein a baby Deer's mother gets shot by hunters.
Or the lion king. Which involves lion murder and a rather catchy song involving hyrenas playing with bones.

What I'm worried about is that GW will go for the typical corporate stance when it comes to modern children's entertainment and go the carebear route rather than the Grimm route.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/22 19:17:22


What I have
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~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





I think there could be a danger that producing content for younger children will put teenagers off starting the hobby. One thing that teenagers like about WH40K is the grimdark (adult-themed) lore. I know I did.

Teenagers will be a huge segment of GW's market, as will the adults (with disposable income) they become. GW needs to tread carefully when diluting the 41st millennium...
   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

 deathwinguk wrote:
I think there could be a danger that producing content for younger children will put teenagers off starting the hobby. One thing that teenagers like about WH40K is the grimdark (adult-themed) lore. I know I did.

Teenagers will be a huge segment of GW's market, as will the adults (with disposable income) they become. GW needs to tread carefully when diluting the 41st millennium...

The adult themed lore is still, and will still be there.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Chances are most teenagers won't see this stuff much if ever beyond the odd reference. There's a lot of kid stuff made for things that, because of marketing and where its sold, adults never see or are rarely exposed too.

How many adults do you think saw the cartoons of adult films made in the 80-90s? Chances are most never saw them until month after their kid had started watching them on the TV.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 ImAGeek wrote:
 deathwinguk wrote:
I think there could be a danger that producing content for younger children will put teenagers off starting the hobby. One thing that teenagers like about WH40K is the grimdark (adult-themed) lore. I know I did.

Teenagers will be a huge segment of GW's market, as will the adults (with disposable income) they become. GW needs to tread carefully when diluting the 41st millennium...

The adult themed lore is still, and will still be there.

Yes but having any content aimed at younger children could be seen as diluting that. Teenagers don't tend to like being associated with anything childish. Hopefully GW know what they're doing.
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

The concerning part is that it's going to result in things that are completely against and don't fit in with the rest of the setting, yet they're still part of the setting.

Or, they'll just result in a bunch of kids books that have no effect on the canon (such as it is) at all.

Kind of like the old Star Wars EU's multiple levels of canon. Or Star Trek's much simpler 'only the movies and shows are canon... the books are just stories' approach.

Of course, that's putting a lot more weight on canon that GW tend to, anyway. In GW-land, Tyranids can be terrifying aliens bent on eating you and everything you hold dear, and want to be your friend.


 
   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

 deathwinguk wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
 deathwinguk wrote:
I think there could be a danger that producing content for younger children will put teenagers off starting the hobby. One thing that teenagers like about WH40K is the grimdark (adult-themed) lore. I know I did.

Teenagers will be a huge segment of GW's market, as will the adults (with disposable income) they become. GW needs to tread carefully when diluting the 41st millennium...

The adult themed lore is still, and will still be there.

Yes but having any content aimed at younger children could be seen as diluting that. Teenagers don't tend to like being associated with anything childish. Hopefully GW know what they're doing.


Not being funny but as a teenager I wasn’t overly enamoured with the idea of being associated with Warhammer as it was anyway... this wouldn’t have changed anything for me. Obviously I can’t talk for all teenagers but as Insaniak says, I think people will just stick to stuff in their age range.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/22 19:37:46


 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 deathwinguk wrote:

Yes but having any content aimed at younger children could be seen as diluting that. Teenagers don't tend to like being associated with anything childish. Hopefully GW know what they're doing.

Star Wars has, for some time now (as in, 30 years or so), had books for adults, books aimed at teenagers, and books aimed at younger kids.

For the most part, people just ignore the books that they don't want to read.

 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Wait, is people really saying that "Warhammer40k" lore has adult themes?

The "fine" parody of warhammer died with 2nd edition. From that point forward it has just been explosions and bolter porn, even when they try to make it deeper like in Inquisition novels, etc... you can't dilute it with a light earthed graphic novel for young kids.

Warhammer 40k is the sci-fi universe equivalent of a Michael Bay movie.

And ey, thats exactly why I love it. But to make of it some sacrosant and untouchable thing, after years of GW doing whatever they want with their universes and Lore, retconning them as they please, is a little... unproductive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/22 19:47:44


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






I think that these books are terriby misguided in the sense that they assume that all 8 to 12 kids are interested in these kinds of carebear bs. When I was that age, it was the ''mature'' aspect of the 40k lore that attracted me. I rebember asking my parent what fornication was, cause in the necro book, it was written that it was forbiden to even think about it. Let's just say my mother was wondering what the hell I was reading


and I also think it's counterproductive to try to attract new players to the mini games by making children books. As a teens, I was a bit ashamed of playing this games since it was viewed as childish. These books won't help in that regard

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/22 19:51:01


lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Galas wrote:
Wait, is people really saying that "Warhammer40k" lore has adult themes?
I've only ever read the first Gotrek and Felix story, in which they attempt to locate an innkeeper's son and his wife, who turn out to be members of a Slaanesh sex cult - which they only discover after murdering everyone at the orgy because they were going to sacrifice a kidnapped infant. You know, now that you mention it, I do sort of remember an episode of Mickey Mouse's Clubhouse that covered similar territory.
   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

 streetsamurai wrote:
I think that these books are terriby misguided in the sense that they assume that all 8 to 12 kids are interested in these kinds of carebear bs. When I was that age, it was the ''mature'' aspect of the 40k lore that attracted me. I rebember asking my parent what fornication was, cause in the necro book, it was written that it was forbiden to even think about it. Let's just say my mother was wondering what the hell I was reading


and I also think it's counterproductive to try to attract new players to the mini games by making children books. As a teens, I was a bit ashamed of playing this games since it was viewed as childish. These books won't help in that regard


I think people here are doing the opposite, and assuming all 8 to 12 year olds are interested in or ready for the more mature themes that they were at that age. These aren’t aimed at us, even us at that age. My reading age was pretty advanced at that age and I was reading stuff more mature, but not everyone was in the same place. And the more advanced readers might be reading these at say 5-8 and then moving on to the heavier stuff, while some may be reading these at 12.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




I'm a primary school teacher and I've taught ages 8-11 for 7 years. That's 210 children directly but we're 3 form entry so 630 children over that period. I can say with absolute certainty (not the general "I don't like this so naturally children aren't going to" response that seems prevalent here) that these will be of interest to a great number of young readers. Children who enjoy science fiction or fantasy, children who like adventure tales and the like will inevitably read these not because they necessarily know or like warhammer, but because the are generally interested in the subject material.

Not only that, but as a teacher, being able to talk directly to children in my class about a common enjoyment is a fantastic teaching tool. And as a parent, knowing that I have books like this I can share with my own younger children is fantastic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/22 20:23:53


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






 ImAGeek wrote:
 streetsamurai wrote:
I think that these books are terriby misguided in the sense that they assume that all 8 to 12 kids are interested in these kinds of carebear bs. When I was that age, it was the ''mature'' aspect of the 40k lore that attracted me. I rebember asking my parent what fornication was, cause in the necro book, it was written that it was forbiden to even think about it. Let's just say my mother was wondering what the hell I was reading


and I also think it's counterproductive to try to attract new players to the mini games by making children books. As a teens, I was a bit ashamed of playing this games since it was viewed as childish. These books won't help in that regard


I think people here are doing the opposite, and assuming all 8 to 12 year olds are interested in or ready for the more mature themes that they were at that age. These aren’t aimed at us, even us at that age. My reading age was pretty advanced at that age and I was reading stuff more mature, but not everyone was in the same place. And the more advanced readers might be reading these at say 5-8 and then moving on to the heavier stuff, while some may be reading these at 12.



which goes back to my other point,are the kids interested in these kind of carebears story will eventaully turned out to be interested in the grim dark setting of 40k?

lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 streetsamurai wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
 streetsamurai wrote:
I think that these books are terriby misguided in the sense that they assume that all 8 to 12 kids are interested in these kinds of carebear bs. When I was that age, it was the ''mature'' aspect of the 40k lore that attracted me. I rebember asking my parent what fornication was, cause in the necro book, it was written that it was forbiden to even think about it. Let's just say my mother was wondering what the hell I was reading


and I also think it's counterproductive to try to attract new players to the mini games by making children books. As a teens, I was a bit ashamed of playing this games since it was viewed as childish. These books won't help in that regard


I think people here are doing the opposite, and assuming all 8 to 12 year olds are interested in or ready for the more mature themes that they were at that age. These aren’t aimed at us, even us at that age. My reading age was pretty advanced at that age and I was reading stuff more mature, but not everyone was in the same place. And the more advanced readers might be reading these at say 5-8 and then moving on to the heavier stuff, while some may be reading these at 12.



which goes back to my other point,are the kids interested in these kind of carebears story will eventaully turned out to be interested in the grim dark setting of 40k?


Sure they probably will. There is SO MUCH MORE to 40K than just the Grim Dark.
The Gothic styles; the painting, the modelling, the playing, the converting, the lore, the computer games - there's ever so much that this kids product is but one tiny part of the whole. If it leads other kids into Warhammer at an earlier age all the better for some will become players to game, play and get into the hobby. That's what we should all be pleased with; that this will hopefully encourage more to take up the hobby we love.

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3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
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Denver, Colorado

Maybe cultist-chan will finally make an in-canon appearance!

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Yes? Strangely enough kids grow, tastes change and get more defined. Some probably won't, some possibly will. Painting them all with the same brush is insulting to the kids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Maybe cultist-chan will finally make an in-canon appearance!


You jest, but that sort of character could actually work well. Dranon not withstanding.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/22 20:43:15


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Yes? Strangely enough kids grow, tastes change and get more defined. Some probably won't, some possibly will. Painting them all with the same brush is insulting to the kids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Maybe cultist-chan will finally make an in-canon appearance!


You jest, but that sort of character could actually work well. Dranon not withstanding.


Lol, insulting. Quit being a drama queen

lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039 
   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

 streetsamurai wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
 streetsamurai wrote:
I think that these books are terriby misguided in the sense that they assume that all 8 to 12 kids are interested in these kinds of carebear bs. When I was that age, it was the ''mature'' aspect of the 40k lore that attracted me. I rebember asking my parent what fornication was, cause in the necro book, it was written that it was forbiden to even think about it. Let's just say my mother was wondering what the hell I was reading


and I also think it's counterproductive to try to attract new players to the mini games by making children books. As a teens, I was a bit ashamed of playing this games since it was viewed as childish. These books won't help in that regard


I think people here are doing the opposite, and assuming all 8 to 12 year olds are interested in or ready for the more mature themes that they were at that age. These aren’t aimed at us, even us at that age. My reading age was pretty advanced at that age and I was reading stuff more mature, but not everyone was in the same place. And the more advanced readers might be reading these at say 5-8 and then moving on to the heavier stuff, while some may be reading these at 12.



which goes back to my other point,are the kids interested in these kind of carebears story will eventaully turned out to be interested in the grim dark setting of 40k?


Assuming these are ‘carebear’ stories, I’m sure some will grow up and mature into the proper BL fiction, yeah. When I was younger I was into much more innocent and childish stuff (funnily enough, being a child) but I matured into liking the stuff I do now. Kids grow up.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 streetsamurai wrote:
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Yes? Strangely enough kids grow, tastes change and get more defined. Some probably won't, some possibly will. Painting them all with the same brush is insulting to the kids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Maybe cultist-chan will finally make an in-canon appearance!


You jest, but that sort of character could actually work well. Dranon not withstanding.


Lol, insulting. Quit being a drama queen


So you don't think it's insulting to group all kids together as being the same rather than as indviduals? Interesting frame of mind there.
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Sqorgar wrote:
This is an attempt at making all ages lore, and is somewhat equivalent to making an all ages version of A Song of Ice and Fire. It's possible, but what's the end game? Introducing children to a universe they aren't ready for?

Thanks, that sums up my opinion nicely.

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
 streetsamurai wrote:
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Yes? Strangely enough kids grow, tastes change and get more defined. Some probably won't, some possibly will. Painting them all with the same brush is insulting to the kids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Maybe cultist-chan will finally make an in-canon appearance!


You jest, but that sort of character could actually work well. Dranon not withstanding.


Lol, insulting. Quit being a drama queen


So you don't think it's insulting to group all kids together as being the same rather than as indviduals? Interesting frame of mind there.


No, I think that you are either selectively comprehending what I wrote, , or desesperately fishing for some kind of argument/controversy

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/22 21:14:12


lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039 
   
 
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