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 Marmatag wrote:
9 points is just too cheap for power armored bodies.

Yes, sisters are too cheap.

I play Sisters, and no, its not to cheap, not at all, they are just about perfect.

Yea, 9 is fine for PA
when it a sister's statline. Marine line is notably better with its higher WS, S and most important T.

Martel732 wrote:
I disagree. They seem about right compared to guardsmen/kabalites. They are power armor done correctly in 8th ed.

And that leaves anyone without OP troops out in the cold? That doesn't make sense. 9PPM power armor is too cheap when Tyranids are paying 5ppm for Hormagants and 6ppm for Gargoyles.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I disagree. They seem about right compared to guardsmen/kabalites. They are power armor done correctly in 8th ed.

And that leaves anyone without OP troops out in the cold? That doesn't make sense. 9PPM power armor is too cheap when Tyranids are paying 5ppm for Hormagants and 6ppm for Gargoyles.

One of my main armies is Nids and i completely dissagree (mainly b.c i feel nids Hgants and Gargoyles just need to go down 1pt and b.c of the support of other nids), no one takes Goyles b.c they are unbalanced, Comparing an unbalance unit to a balanced one to show that balanced unit is OP is stupid.

The different is buffs, Tyranids have things the Sister dont, sob literally is 6" move S3, T3, WS4, A1, LD7/8, with a bolter/pistol/nage. a Hormagant is 8" move S3, T3, ws4 as well, but the 3 differences are, Hgants are 2A and has a very strong special rule and the army can give them FnP, better movements, 100% immune to moral, etc...

For 4pts difference the Sister is getting 3+ Sv and Pistol/Bolter. IMO a 3+ vs 6+ save is worth 4pts, while losing an attack and movement for shooting weapons.

PS: Rets and Doms are 10ppm, only the Troops are 9ppm

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I disagree. They seem about right compared to guardsmen/kabalites. They are power armor done correctly in 8th ed.

And that leaves anyone without OP troops out in the cold? That doesn't make sense. 9PPM power armor is too cheap when Tyranids are paying 5ppm for Hormagants and 6ppm for Gargoyles.

One of my main armies is Nids and i completely dissagree (mainly b.c i feel nids Hgants and Gargoyles just need to go down 1pt and b.c of the support of other nids), no one takes Goyles b.c they are unbalanced, Comparing an unbalance unit to a balanced one to show that balanced unit is OP is stupid.

The different is buffs, Tyranids have things the Sister dont, sob literally is 6" move S3, T3, WS4, A1, LD7/8, with a bolter/pistol/nage. a Hormagant is 8" move S3, T3, ws4 as well, but the 3 differences are, Hgants are 2A and has a very strong special rule and the army can give them FnP, better movements, 100% immune to moral, etc...

For 4pts difference the Sister is getting 3+ Sv and Pistol/Bolter. IMO a 3+ vs 6+ save is worth 4pts, while losing an attack and movement for shooting weapons.

PS: Rets and Doms are 10ppm, only the Troops are 9ppm

Typical to consider all the synergies Tyranids get, yet none of the synergies Sisters get. Going from a 6+ save to a 3+ save, is worth 4 points alone, forgetting that they also get a rapid fire 24" strength 4 gun, on 3+ BS. Forgetting that sisters get acts of faith, can ride in transports, etc. Claiming Tyranids are immune to morale is false. They have synapse. The ability itself is provided for and costed by another model. You start talking about psychic powers, yet don't mention acts of faith. Your argument would be "who is using acts of faith on a regular sisters squad?" to which i would counter with, "no one is casting catalyst on their basic hormagant squads." Of course you're also forgetting that catalyst can fail, AoF is pretty dern guaranteed isn't it?

Units like hormagants don't win fights. They deny deep strike and can maybe tie stuff up in combat if your opponent is derpy. I would much rather be able to pay 45 points and camp a unit in cover on an objective, with a 2+ save that can be regenerated if need be.

Well they'd cast Catalyst on a full size squad maybe. Nobody would run a full size Sister squad though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well they'd cast Catalyst on a full size squad maybe. Nobody would run a full size Sister squad though.

It's possible that people will run max size squads now that reaper is adjusted.

I can tell you that running big blobs sounds attractive but Tyranids don't have the true gunline to support that kind of investment.

The way i would run it would involve 60 hormagants and 9 carnifex with some hive guard. And then, i'm probably saving catalyst for the hive guard. Of course that's still not strong enough shooting to win a firefight, which kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it? Assuming you run at least one hive tyrant, that is the prime candidate for your catalyst.

You guys can short-sell power armor all you want, but it makes a massive difference. And power armor (from a 6+ save) + a boltgun + 3BS is absolutely worth 4 points, any day of the week.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I disagree. They seem about right compared to guardsmen/kabalites. They are power armor done correctly in 8th ed.

And that leaves anyone without OP troops out in the cold? That doesn't make sense. 9PPM power armor is too cheap when Tyranids are paying 5ppm for Hormagants and 6ppm for Gargoyles.

One of my main armies is Nids and i completely dissagree (mainly b.c i feel nids Hgants and Gargoyles just need to go down 1pt and b.c of the support of other nids), no one takes Goyles b.c they are unbalanced, Comparing an unbalance unit to a balanced one to show that balanced unit is OP is stupid.

The different is buffs, Tyranids have things the Sister dont, sob literally is 6" move S3, T3, WS4, A1, LD7/8, with a bolter/pistol/nage. a Hormagant is 8" move S3, T3, ws4 as well, but the 3 differences are, Hgants are 2A and has a very strong special rule and the army can give them FnP, better movements, 100% immune to moral, etc...

For 4pts difference the Sister is getting 3+ Sv and Pistol/Bolter. IMO a 3+ vs 6+ save is worth 4pts, while losing an attack and movement for shooting weapons.

PS: Rets and Doms are 10ppm, only the Troops are 9ppm

Typical to consider all the synergies Tyranids get, yet none of the synergies Sisters get. Going from a 6+ save to a 3+ save, is worth 4 points alone, forgetting that they also get a rapid fire 24" strength 4 gun, on 3+ BS. Forgetting that sisters get acts of faith, can ride in transports, etc. Claiming Tyranids are immune to morale is false. They have synapse. The ability itself is provided for and costed by another model. You start talking about psychic powers, yet don't mention acts of faith. Your argument would be "who is using acts of faith on a regular sisters squad?" to which i would counter with, "no one is casting catalyst on their basic hormagant squads." Of course you're also forgetting that catalyst can fail, AoF is pretty dern guaranteed isn't it?

Units like hormagants don't win fights. They deny deep strike and can maybe tie stuff up in combat if your opponent is derpy. I would much rather be able to pay 45 points and camp a unit in cover on an objective, with a 2+ save that can be regenerated if need be.

I didnt forget those, AoF are very limited and you need to invest to gain more than 1. If you want to invest 200pts so your 6 units can have a good chance to use them then go ahead.

Sob are shooters and Hgants are melee units that can get into melee very easily, turn 1 if you wanted too.

You should look at Tgants as they are the shooting unit, But you dont want to b.c they are 4ppm and costed a bit more balanced, where Hgants should be 4ppm and Goyles should be 5ppm, again you are trying to compare a Unit that might not be balanced to a unit that is more balanced AND 2 units that DONT fit the same role.

Look at a Tgant compare to a BSS then, its a Assault 12" bolter for 4ppm with a 6+ save, the BSS is now 5pts more costly.

If SOB 9ppm is to good, then why dont you see SoB armies at tournaments running 4-6 troops? Instead you see Seraphim and Rets, just like in CSM you see Havocs and Noise marines, just like in other lists you dont need the base troops for them, just b.c YOU think they are OP doesnt mean they are.

I literally play a Horde sisters list with 6 Troops, 5 Fast, 3 Heavys all bodies, no tanks, they are good against marines only b.c Marines are bad currently. Against CWE? DE? Daemons even, they are not very good.

BSS are one of the more balanced units in the game.

Part of the reason is that Sister armies are hard to put together at a reasonable cost.

If that were true, Seer Councils wouldn't have been OP until GW put out a dedicated kit...

 Amishprn86 wrote:

I didnt forget those, AoF are very limited and you need to invest to gain more than 1. If you want to invest 200pts so your 6 units can have a good chance to use them then go ahead.

You can cast catalyst once per turn. it is more limited than acts of faith. Besides being able to shoot twice for free is a huge freaking deal.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Sob are shooters and Hgants are melee units that can get into melee very easily, turn 1 if you wanted too.

Any unit can get a turn 1 charge in the right scenario if your opponent is bad. That's not a good example.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

You should look at Tgants as they are the shooting unit, But you dont want to b.c they are 4ppm and costed a bit more balanced, where Hgants should be 4ppm and Goyles should be 5ppm, again you are trying to compare a Unit that might not be balanced to a unit that is more balanced AND 2 units that DONT fit the same role.

Look at a Tgant compare to a BSS then, its a Assault 12" bolter for 4ppm with a 6+ save, the BSS is now 5pts more costly.

I don't want to look at Tgants because they're garbage. A 12" range gun makes them there purely to screen. A 3+ save, 3+ bs, and 24" range, are worth 5 points over termagants. They are.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

If SOB 9ppm is to good, then why dont you see SoB armies at tournaments running 4-6 troops? Instead you see Seraphim and Rets, just like in CSM you see Havocs and Noise marines, just like in other lists you dont need the base troops for them, just b.c YOU think they are OP doesnt mean they are.

Same reason you don't see termagants and hormagants doing anything in top tyranid lists? Is your argument based on tournaments that you've seen, or just looking at faction based data on BCP or BOK? And you're putting words in my mouth, because you are here to argue nonsensically. Read what i'm writing and respond to that.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

I literally play a Horde sisters list with 6 Troops, 5 Fast, 3 Heavys all bodies, no tanks, they are good against marines only b.c Marines are bad currently. Against CWE? DE? Daemons even, they are not very good.

So basically you play a poorly built sisters army and can't win, therefore you don't have access to good units? Reread what you wrote, it makes like 0 sense.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
BSS are one of the more balanced units in the game.

They're an index army. if sisters are balanced without a codex what does that tell you?

 Marmatag wrote:
Where's my buff Hormagants and Termagants thread? Are there so few Tyranids players running around in 8th these days?

Well there's the 'I only need Hive Tyrants' subfaction, the 'Pure Tyranid Warriors are where it's at' list, and the 'must be a way to make 30 biovores work' subfaction...

 Marmatag wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

I didnt forget those, AoF are very limited and you need to invest to gain more than 1. If you want to invest 200pts so your 6 units can have a good chance to use them then go ahead.

You can cast catalyst once per turn. it is more limited than acts of faith. Besides being able to shoot twice for free is a huge freaking deal.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Sob are shooters and Hgants are melee units that can get into melee very easily, turn 1 if you wanted too.

Any unit can get a turn 1 charge in the right scenario if your opponent is bad. That's not a good example.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

You should look at Tgants as they are the shooting unit, But you dont want to b.c they are 4ppm and costed a bit more balanced, where Hgants should be 4ppm and Goyles should be 5ppm, again you are trying to compare a Unit that might not be balanced to a unit that is more balanced AND 2 units that DONT fit the same role.

Look at a Tgant compare to a BSS then, its a Assault 12" bolter for 4ppm with a 6+ save, the BSS is now 5pts more costly.

I don't want to look at Tgants because they're garbage. A 12" range gun makes them there purely to screen. A 3+ save, 3+ bs, and 24" range, are worth 5 points over termagants. They are.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

If SOB 9ppm is to good, then why dont you see SoB armies at tournaments running 4-6 troops? Instead you see Seraphim and Rets, just like in CSM you see Havocs and Noise marines, just like in other lists you dont need the base troops for them, just b.c YOU think they are OP doesnt mean they are.

Same reason you don't see termagants and hormagants doing anything in top tyranid lists? Is your argument based on tournaments that you've seen, or just looking at faction based data on BCP or BOK? And you're putting words in my mouth, because you are here to argue nonsensically. Read what i'm writing and respond to that.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

I literally play a Horde sisters list with 6 Troops, 5 Fast, 3 Heavys all bodies, no tanks, they are good against marines only b.c Marines are bad currently. Against CWE? DE? Daemons even, they are not very good.

So basically you play a poorly built sisters army and can't win, therefore you don't have access to good units? Reread what you wrote, it makes like 0 sense.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
BSS are one of the more balanced units in the game.

They're an index army. if sisters are balanced without a codex what does that tell you?

Thanks for proving me correct, i play with 9pt BSS and you just said its a poorily built army, if 60 9pt models are poor then why are you arguing they are to good?

The only reason you dont see Tgants is b.c Rippers can DS and are cheaper and Genestealers are a must, there is you up to 6 Troops you might want.

Tgants/Hgants/Goyles are not very good, I fully agree with you, and you still want to compare a BSS to them?


No matter what you say no one is going to think Sisters are OP and needs to go up in points b.c "power armor"

Power armor has become a joke, just like in 2nd. It works on sisters because they sub 10 pts.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

I didnt forget those, AoF are very limited and you need to invest to gain more than 1. If you want to invest 200pts so your 6 units can have a good chance to use them then go ahead.

You can cast catalyst once per turn. it is more limited than acts of faith. Besides being able to shoot twice for free is a huge freaking deal.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Sob are shooters and Hgants are melee units that can get into melee very easily, turn 1 if you wanted too.

Any unit can get a turn 1 charge in the right scenario if your opponent is bad. That's not a good example.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

You should look at Tgants as they are the shooting unit, But you dont want to b.c they are 4ppm and costed a bit more balanced, where Hgants should be 4ppm and Goyles should be 5ppm, again you are trying to compare a Unit that might not be balanced to a unit that is more balanced AND 2 units that DONT fit the same role.

Look at a Tgant compare to a BSS then, its a Assault 12" bolter for 4ppm with a 6+ save, the BSS is now 5pts more costly.

I don't want to look at Tgants because they're garbage. A 12" range gun makes them there purely to screen. A 3+ save, 3+ bs, and 24" range, are worth 5 points over termagants. They are.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

If SOB 9ppm is to good, then why dont you see SoB armies at tournaments running 4-6 troops? Instead you see Seraphim and Rets, just like in CSM you see Havocs and Noise marines, just like in other lists you dont need the base troops for them, just b.c YOU think they are OP doesnt mean they are.

Same reason you don't see termagants and hormagants doing anything in top tyranid lists? Is your argument based on tournaments that you've seen, or just looking at faction based data on BCP or BOK? And you're putting words in my mouth, because you are here to argue nonsensically. Read what i'm writing and respond to that.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

I literally play a Horde sisters list with 6 Troops, 5 Fast, 3 Heavys all bodies, no tanks, they are good against marines only b.c Marines are bad currently. Against CWE? DE? Daemons even, they are not very good.

So basically you play a poorly built sisters army and can't win, therefore you don't have access to good units? Reread what you wrote, it makes like 0 sense.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
BSS are one of the more balanced units in the game.

They're an index army. if sisters are balanced without a codex what does that tell you?

Thanks for proving me correct, i play with 9pt BSS and you just said its a poorily built army, if 60 9pt models are poor then why are you arguing they are to good?

The only reason you dont see Tgants is b.c Rippers can DS and are cheaper and Genestealers are a must, there is you up to 6 Troops you might want.

Tgants/Hgants/Goyles are not very good, I fully agree with you, and you still want to compare a BSS to them?


No matter what you say no one is going to think Sisters are OP and needs to go up in points b.c "power armor"

Dude you can't just run a one dimensional army composed entirely of troops and win, regardless of the faction.

I didn't say BSS were OP, i just said 9points is too cheap for power armor. There are shades of grey in regards to balance.

This all started with discussing assault marines at 9 points, which is why we originated with Hormagant comparison.

Genestealers are solid, rippers are good because they're cheap and DS, as you mentioned. If i could take BSS in place of hormagants or termagants I absolutely would. When GSC book drops i'll probably get my CP that way.

9 ppm is not too cheap for power armor. It's about right the way 8th ed plays. AP mods everywhere.

9pts for BSS isnt to cheap tho, if it was to cheap you see them all over the place, only SoB lovers like me play them.


If you think ASM needs ot be 9ppm, WTF then SOB needs to be 7-8ppm, b.c they dont have anything like what ASM has.

ASM should be 13 ppm with pack and 2 attacks base.

Too many marine jump units break the 20 ppm threshold after being equipped, and that's untenable in 8th. That's why ba dc are now useless.

This is kind of insane. I am not on board with power armor being that cheap. Sisters will get better with their codex, and they're already a very good index army.

 Marmatag wrote:
This is kind of insane. I am not on board with power armor being that cheap. Sisters will get better with their codex, and they're already a very good index army.

Power armor is ignored or reduced to a 6 so much, so why not? When you get to the mid teens for cost, brute forcing with ap 0 becomes viable.

There should be at least one good power armor faction.

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
This is kind of insane. I am not on board with power armor being that cheap. Sisters will get better with their codex, and they're already a very good index army.

Power armor is ignored or reduced to a 6 so much, so why not? When you get to the mid teens for cost, brute forcing with ap 0 becomes viable.

There should be at least one good power armor faction.

Thousand Sons and Death Guard are viable. Khorne Berzerkers are viable.. CSM in general are viable. The problem with marines is offense, not defense.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
This is kind of insane. I am not on board with power armor being that cheap. Sisters will get better with their codex, and they're already a very good index army.

Power armor is ignored or reduced to a 6 so much, so why not? When you get to the mid teens for cost, brute forcing with ap 0 becomes viable.

There should be at least one good power armor faction.

Thousand Sons and Death Guard are viable. Khorne Berzerkers are viable.. CSM in general are viable. The problem with marines is offense, not defense.

Because CSM rely so heavily on cultists and demon princes and such, I don't fully put them in the power armor bin. Maybe I should.

Tsons have invuln on top of power armor.
DG have T5 and FNP on top of power armor.
Khorne berserkers fight TWICE on top of power armor.

These are all radical departures from what loyalists have access to. I'd say loyalists are taking it up the ass both offensively and defensively. DC move 12", and attack a bunch of times, but die like sisters of battle when hit by disintegrator cannons. Or plasma. Or any other fashionable weapon of the week. For 20+ ppm. That's unplayable in 8th. That's the closest I've got to chaos marine. What a joke.

Sisters of battle are undercosted though.

Marines have defense. They don't have offense. Staying power is also a function of how hard you hit. The more you kill, the longer you live.

 Marmatag wrote:
Sisters of battle are undercosted though.

Marines have defense. They don't have offense. Staying power is also a function of how hard you hit. The more you kill, the longer you live.

DG don't hit THAT hard. They have plenty of staying power because of overlapping saves and extra T. Yes, marines have woeful offense compounded by their base cost. Sisters have better offense just by having MOAR bodies. I don't consider T4 3+ viable defense in 8th; not at the price point marines end up at after giving them equipment. Too much S5+ -AP out there. A single plasma gun puts them up at 15.6 ppm, at which point just scrubbing through the 3+ with AP 0 becomes efficient. That's not viable defense.

 Marmatag wrote:
Sisters of battle are undercosted though.

Marines have defense. They don't have offense. Staying power is also a function of how hard you hit. The more you kill, the longer you live.

Marines are actually one of the squishiest armies in the game.

It didn't want to go that far, but I suspect that's mathematically true after handing out equipment. 28 for a multimelta? 18 for a meltagun? 10 for a heavy bolter? Really?

Martel732 wrote:
It didn't want to go that far, but I suspect that's mathematically true after handing out equipment. 28 for a multimelta? 18 for a meltagun? 10 for a heavy bolter? Really?

Everyone knows MG's and MM are overpriced, especially MM, for 27pts it should have rapid fire ffs.

Yes, Multi-Melta, and Melta, are way overpriced for what they do.

Now, if the multi-melta had a rule that if a 6 is rolled for damage against a <VEHICLE>, then that vehicle is instantly slain, that would make melta worthwhile. And, getting into melta range.

But that's not generally a function of TAC marines.

In truth if you:

(a) change ATSKNF so that instead of rerolling dice for morale checks, marines auto-pass
and
(b) adjusted the cost of some wargear - for instance, grav, melta, etc.
(c) allowed marines to take 2 special and 2 heavy if it's a 10-man squad

You'd find yourself with reasonably potent squads. You'd have 5 ablative wounds before you're pulling a special/heavy/sarge, and you've got a bit of specialization/flexibility.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Sisters of battle are undercosted though.

Marines have defense. They don't have offense. Staying power is also a function of how hard you hit. The more you kill, the longer you live.

Marines are actually one of the squishiest armies in the game.

they are no longer the toughest army in the game with custodes, deathguard and knights in the mix... but they are still among the toughest armies in the game, t4 and 3+ or 2+ is not squishy and thier tanks/vehiclesa are plenty durable. they just pay to much for it. I do thin space marines need some points adjustments but that does not mean they are easy to kill, it just means they do not have enough models on the field. its liek playing 1200 points of custodes vs 1750 of imprerial guard.. custodes are still tough , they just don't have enough bodies or offense to compete. .

Does anyone think Kill team is going to have any bearing on the core game?
They dropped intercessors to 15, reivers to 16(I think the chute was still 2 points) , and classic marines to 12.

Intercessors seem like a steal now that they cost the same as the gun that kills them the best.