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 Crimson wrote:
Frankly, if the AoF are this unreliable and really not super powerful, they should ditch the faith points and let them be used for free.

I think i'd prefer they go the other way - make the faith automatic, keep the faith points.

Gives some agency to the player rather than just watching their army fluctuate wildly in power from turn to turn.

A.T. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Frankly, if the AoF are this unreliable and really not super powerful, they should ditch the faith points and let them be used for free.

I think i'd prefer they go the other way - make the faith automatic, keep the faith points.

Gives some agency to the player rather than just watching their army fluctuate wildly in power from turn to turn.

Yes, that would work too. Though it basically makes them identical to stratagems, at which point you might as well combine AoFs into the Sister stratagems.

A.T. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Frankly, if the AoF are this unreliable and really not super powerful, they should ditch the faith points and let them be used for free.

I think i'd prefer they go the other way - make the faith automatic, keep the faith points.

Gives some agency to the player rather than just watching their army fluctuate wildly in power from turn to turn.

I disagree with both of you. I like the new system as it isn't to be seen as a massive gimmick, just slight potential buffs to differentiate from other armies and makes Sisters unique. Also one thing that bears mentioning is Sisters with the new system will be one of the few factions with a seperate pool of points to use, freeing up command points for other things. Late game potential advantage if your opponent burned through all theirs on turn 1-2. Strategem to convert CMD points to Faith is nice as well, shame it can't be used the other way around. Potential thing to propose to GW???

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
Late game potential advantage if your opponent burned through all theirs on turn 1-2. Strategem to convert CMD points to Faith is nice as well, shame it can't be used the other way around. Potential thing to propose to GW???

If you could convert them both ways then at least you might as well make AoFs into stratagems, as the two separate pools would be a mere illusion.

And that is not a horrible idea.

Turn the Acts of Faith into a select group of Stratagems with appropriate cost by how powerful they are, with no rolls to succeed.

Faith Points become bonus Command Points that can only be spent on a select group of "Acts of Faith" Stratagems.

Redo all the various Faith Point based rules into something that either interact with "Acts of Faith" Stratagems or replace with something more useful.

 Crimson wrote:
Yes, that would work too. Though it basically makes them identical to stratagems, at which point you might as well combine AoFs into the Sister stratagems.

The principles behind them being separate would be -
1) no cp farming for faith, instead it scales to the sororitas alone
2) allows for faith points to be more spread across the game - i.e. awarded on unit destruction - rather than all front-loaded
3) allows for various regen, booster, and combination effects and bonuses that can be separated from the other stratagems.

I don't have a problem with most of the current system, it reminds me of the old-old system, except...

It's been stated that it was desired that they would scale with game size; but at 1 instance per turn, it still doesn't, so there's still a choke.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I don't have a problem with most of the current system, it reminds me of the old system, except...

It's been stated that it was desired that they would scale with game size; but at 1 instance per turn, it still doesn't, so there's still a choke.

They apparently did come up with whole load of BS about this beta dex.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I don't have a problem with most of the current system, it reminds me of the old system, except...

It's been stated that it was desired that they would scale with game size; but at 1 instance per turn, it still doesn't, so there's still a choke.

They apparently did come up with whole load of BS about this beta dex.

The one consistent problem that I find most problematic about the edition in general is the rules-of-one. Strategems, Psychics, etc.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I don't have a problem with most of the current system, it reminds me of the old system, except...

It's been stated that it was desired that they would scale with game size; but at 1 instance per turn, it still doesn't, so there's still a choke.

They apparently did come up with whole load of BS about this beta dex.

The one consistent problem that I find most problematic about the edition in general is the rules-of-one. Strategems, Psychics, etc.

What is most annoying is that they had a decent Index force but they decided to make it more complicated, less interesting and massively less powerful, they even buffed non Sisters units rather than Sisters ones. Finally they could not be bothered to include new units that they already make models for liek Canoness Veridan and Canoness with jump pack.

Presumably too busy making rules up for other armies in the Campaign book.

A.T. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Frankly, if the AoF are this unreliable and really not super powerful, they should ditch the faith points and let them be used for free.

I think i'd prefer they go the other way - make the faith automatic, keep the faith points.

Gives some agency to the player rather than just watching their army fluctuate wildly in power from turn to turn.

But their power doesn't "fluctuate wildly". You occasionally get a small boost. Acts shouldn't be what props the army up, they should provide a slight edge. Ideally you want the army to function well without Acts at all then introduce Acts using a system that gives them a tactical advantage to counter your opponents tactical advantages.

 Mr Morden wrote:
What is most annoying is that they had a decent Index force but they decided to make it more complicated, less interesting and massively less powerful, they even buffed non Sisters units rather than Sisters ones. Finally they could not be bothered to include new units that they already make models for liek Canoness Veridan and Canoness with jump pack.

There is no Canoness with a Jump Pack model

There is the Gemeni Superia, who are now their own unit in the Beta Codex. They are not Canoness with a Jump Pack. Just search the GW Website and you will see that.

 alextroy wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
What is most annoying is that they had a decent Index force but they decided to make it more complicated, less interesting and massively less powerful, they even buffed non Sisters units rather than Sisters ones. Finally they could not be bothered to include new units that they already make models for liek Canoness Veridan and Canoness with jump pack.

There is no Canoness with a Jump Pack model

There is the Gemeni Superia, who are now their own unit in the Beta Codex. They are not Canoness with a Jump Pack. Just search the GW Website and you will see that.

except in the lore they were both canoness's so good try

 alextroy wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
What is most annoying is that they had a decent Index force but they decided to make it more complicated, less interesting and massively less powerful, they even buffed non Sisters units rather than Sisters ones. Finally they could not be bothered to include new units that they already make models for liek Canoness Veridan and Canoness with jump pack.

There is no Canoness with a Jump Pack model

There is the Gemeni Superia, who are now their own unit in the Beta Codex. They are not Canoness with a Jump Pack. Just search the GW Website and you will see that.

Yes they are - read the actual fething lore. They died and were brought back but that was exactly what they were!

 warmaster21 wrote:
except in the lore they were both canoness's so good try

were being the operative word, both died, so are no longer Canonesses.

Also they are special characters. Just like SM don't have options for a generic scout level HQ.

No model, no rules.

Fictional wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:
except in the lore they were both canoness's so good try

were being the operative word, both died, so are no longer Canonesses.

So if you bother to think abut it:

We have a model of two Cannoness that used Jump Packs and they could not make that basic step to "Duh yeah Cannoness use jump packs - we make a model that you can use for this."

Or allowed super basic kit bashing - you know like the Grandmaster Baby carrier that absoluetly does not have a model unless you - guess what - kit bash.

Then there is Veridyan - I guess they just could not be bothered to make up a single rule for her

It doesn't matter how much you want them to be Jump Pack Canoness, they are not. How do we know this? Because the box says they are Gemina Superia, not Canoness with Jump Pack. And for GW, that is all the matters.

Besides, going by looks, they are just Seraphim Sister Superiors. There is nothing on the model to indicate they are Canoness, unlike the Canoness with her cloak.

 alextroy wrote:
It doesn't matter how much you want them to be Jump Pack Canoness, they are not. How do we know this? Because the box says they are Gemina Superia, not Canoness with Jump Pack. And for GW, that is all the matters.

Besides, going by looks, they are just Seraphim Sister Superiors. There is nothing on the model to indicate they are Canoness, unlike the Canoness with her cloak.

Half the space Marine codex doesn't exist by that logic.

 Twoshoes23 wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Frankly, if the AoF are this unreliable and really not super powerful, they should ditch the faith points and let them be used for free.

I think i'd prefer they go the other way - make the faith automatic, keep the faith points.

Gives some agency to the player rather than just watching their army fluctuate wildly in power from turn to turn.

I disagree with both of you. I like the new system as it isn't to be seen as a massive gimmick, just slight potential buffs to differentiate from other armies and makes Sisters unique. Also one thing that bears mentioning is Sisters with the new system will be one of the few factions with a seperate pool of points to use, freeing up command points for other things. Late game potential advantage if your opponent burned through all theirs on turn 1-2. Strategem to convert CMD points to Faith is nice as well, shame it can't be used the other way around. Potential thing to propose to GW???

There are two problems with them being 'slight potential buffs'. One: They are WAY too slight. The buffs are basically irrelevant. You could go an entire game forgetting to use them and lose NOTHING. Two: The army DIDN'T CHANGE between this system and the MUCH more powerful old system. We're still balanced around one of the best army special rules in the game! They ripped out the old act of faith system and exchanged it for what are essentially 6 of the worst stratagems anywhere, WITHOUT CHANGING THE REST OF THE ARMY! We didn't even get points drops!

Imagine if, when the necron codex came out, it was just the Index Necron force copypasted into the book but instead of their normal Reanimation Protocols they got 'Roll a D6, on a 6 you may restore one slain model to the unit. This ability can only be used by One unit per turn and can only be used once per turn.' and that's about where sisters are at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Fictional wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:
except in the lore they were both canoness's so good try

were being the operative word, both died, so are no longer Canonesses.

So if you bother to think abut it:

We have a model of two Cannoness that used Jump Packs and they could not make that basic step to "Duh yeah Cannoness use jump packs - we make a model that you can use for this."

Or allowed super basic kit bashing - you know like the Grandmaster Baby carrier that absoluetly does not have a model unless you - guess what - kit bash.

Then there is Veridyan - I guess they just could not be bothered to make up a single rule for her

Yeah, there was some hardcore laziness in this book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sim-Life wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Frankly, if the AoF are this unreliable and really not super powerful, they should ditch the faith points and let them be used for free.

I think i'd prefer they go the other way - make the faith automatic, keep the faith points.

Gives some agency to the player rather than just watching their army fluctuate wildly in power from turn to turn.

But their power doesn't "fluctuate wildly". You occasionally get a small boost. Acts shouldn't be what props the army up, they should provide a slight edge. Ideally you want the army to function well without Acts at all then introduce Acts using a system that gives them a tactical advantage to counter your opponents tactical advantages.

None of these things are happening. The army doesn't fluctuate AT ALL in power because the acts of faith are so bad it doesn't matter if they fail. OR if they succeed.

The army doesn't function without Act of Faiths. They tore out the old VERY powerful system and then made ZERO significant improvements to the list. It's exactly the same as the index list except far, FAR worse without the old AoF system to prob the army up.

Acts of Faith don't give a tactical advantage. The impact of even the 2 'good' acts of faith is incredibly small. 2 of the acts of faith are so situational that by the time you run into a situation where you might actually get to use one, you forgot what they do. The last two don't do anything at all.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Fictional wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:
except in the lore they were both canoness's so good try

were being the operative word, both died, so are no longer Canonesses.

So if you bother to think abut it:

We have a model of two Cannoness that used Jump Packs and they could not make that basic step to "Duh yeah Cannoness use jump packs - we make a model that you can use for this."

Or allowed super basic kit bashing - you know like the Grandmaster Baby carrier that absoluetly does not have a model unless you - guess what - kit bash.

Then there is Veridyan - I guess they just could not be bothered to make up a single rule for her

Stop thinking using proper logic, you need to apply GW Logic.

Geminae are not "Canoness with Jump Pack" they are Geminae, GW dont do "counts as".

Not disputing that having a Canoness with a Jump Pack wouldnt be either nice nor logical, it just isnt, and so GW didnt.

 alextroy wrote:
It doesn't matter how much you want them to be Jump Pack Canoness, they are not. How do we know this? Because the box says they are Gemina Superia, not Canoness with Jump Pack. And for GW, that is all the matters.

Besides, going by looks, they are just Seraphim Sister Superiors. There is nothing on the model to indicate they are Canoness, unlike the Canoness with her cloak.

Urghh - THEY ARE canoness's - again read the fething lore.

The fact the GW can;t be bothered to use them as such is just insulting.

Geminae are not "Canoness with Jump Pack" they are Geminae, GW dont do "counts as".

Apparently we are getting several different Priests becase they can use the models as different thngs to count as.....

 Mr Morden wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
It doesn't matter how much you want them to be Jump Pack Canoness, they are not. How do we know this? Because the box says they are Gemina Superia, not Canoness with Jump Pack. And for GW, that is all the matters.

Besides, going by looks, they are just Seraphim Sister Superiors. There is nothing on the model to indicate they are Canoness, unlike the Canoness with her cloak.

Urghh - THEY ARE canoness's - again read the fething lore.

The fact the GW can;t be bothered to use them as such is just insulting.

Geminae are not "Canoness with Jump Pack" they are Geminae, GW dont do "counts as".

Apparently we are getting several different Priests becase they can use the models as different thngs to count as.....

"Canonness with jump pack" is a weird hill to die on.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
It doesn't matter how much you want them to be Jump Pack Canoness, they are not. How do we know this? Because the box says they are Gemina Superia, not Canoness with Jump Pack. And for GW, that is all the matters.

Besides, going by looks, they are just Seraphim Sister Superiors. There is nothing on the model to indicate they are Canoness, unlike the Canoness with her cloak.

Urghh - THEY ARE canoness's - again read the fething lore.

The fact the GW can;t be bothered to use them as such is just insulting.

Geminae are not "Canoness with Jump Pack" they are Geminae, GW dont do "counts as".

Apparently we are getting several different Priests becase they can use the models as different thngs to count as.....

"Canonness with jump pack" is a weird hill to die on.

Is it though? It's something the rules supported once and it's something that would help make our close range army work now.

Lammia wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
It doesn't matter how much you want them to be Jump Pack Canoness, they are not. How do we know this? Because the box says they are Gemina Superia, not Canoness with Jump Pack. And for GW, that is all the matters.

Besides, going by looks, they are just Seraphim Sister Superiors. There is nothing on the model to indicate they are Canoness, unlike the Canoness with her cloak.

Urghh - THEY ARE canoness's - again read the fething lore.

The fact the GW can;t be bothered to use them as such is just insulting.

Geminae are not "Canoness with Jump Pack" they are Geminae, GW dont do "counts as".

Apparently we are getting several different Priests becase they can use the models as different thngs to count as.....

"Canonness with jump pack" is a weird hill to die on.

Is it though? It's something the rules supported once and it's something that would help make our close range army work now.

I'd love a Canoness with Jump Pack, but from what I can tell from the Beta Codex they're clearly limiting themself to the available model lineup, without having to point people to possible conversions. As a consequence I hope they're going to add new units/models once the range gets relaunched - although I find it REALLY odd that they would not just let us proxy stuff until then. It's not like SoBs are a newbie army anyway

nekooni wrote:

Lammia wrote:

"Canonness with jump pack" is a weird hill to die on.

Is it though? It's something the rules supported once and it's something that would help make our close range army work now.

I'd love a Canoness with Jump Pack, but from what I can tell from the Beta Codex they're clearly limiting themself to the available model lineup, without having to point people to possible conversions. As a consequence I hope they're going to add new units/models once the range gets relaunched - although I find it REALLY odd that they would not just let us proxy stuff until then. It's not like SoBs are a newbie army anyway

Do we have any info on what acts of faiths will be?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Do we have any info on what acts of faiths will be?

-Spirit of the Martyr, 3+, Heal D3 wounds or restore one character with 1 wound
-Aegis of the Emperor, 3+, Use at start of psychic phase to get a 4+ save against mortal wounds that phase
-Light of the Emperor, 3+, Use at start of moral phase to automatically pass moral with that unit
-Divine Guidance, 4+, Add +1 to hit rolls for ranged weapons
-Hand of the Emperor, 4+, Add 3" to movement
-The Passion, 5+, Use at start of fight phase, that unit may be selected to fight twice during the phase

Tests made on one dice. Each act can only be attempted once per game turn. Tests use one faith point regardless of success. Faith points are limited per game.

A.T. wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Do we have any info on what acts of faiths will be?

-Spirit of the Martyr, 3+, Heal D3 wounds or restore one character with 1 wound
-Aegis of the Emperor, 3+, Use at start of psychic phase to get a 4+ save against mortal wounds that phase
-Light of the Emperor, 3+, Use at start of moral phase to automatically pass moral with that unit
-Divine Guidance, 4+, Add +1 to hit rolls for ranged weapons
-Hand of the Emperor, 4+, Add 3" to movement
-The Passion, 5+, Use at start of fight phase, that unit may be selected to fight twice during the phase

Tests made on one dice. Each act can only be attempted once per game turn. Tests use one faith point regardless of success. Faith points are limited per game.

Some of those are pretty cool but what is up with the limitations? Once per turn seems reasonable.
Seems like the limited nature of the points - the roll for going off should just be removed. Just have them good off automatically or on a 2+ like before. +1 to hit is REALLY good to be able to have on demand for any unit you want. Auto morale pass could be powerful if not for the fact that sisters aren't really taking huge squads anyways. The mortal wound save is actually REALLY good but is also situational.

This seems pretty weak. To go from 1 on demand ability per turn that was really good like - move again - shoot again...Now it's just a bunch of micro abilities that aren't nearly as powerful. I think the idea behind the changes is decent BUT the abilities reliability is REALLY weak. It's needs to be more reliable if the powers are going to be this weak. Then maybe a stratagem that gives you an automatic activation of any one of these acts for 2 CP...or something like that.

I mean, they're not terrible.
Spirit of the Martyr isn't particularly awesome. It's only better than Divine Guidance if you're down to 1 or 2 models.
Aegis of the Emperor is cool. I think it's the only counter to smite-spam armies, which is really neat. It's super situational, though, and will not get used like 90% of the time.
Light of the Emperor... morale? We don't have morale problems, but I guess it might be valuable if we start running giant blocks of infantry.
Divine Guidance is neat. It's a strong effect, but if you're not spreading it you're not really getting a whole lot of value back. This will be your go-to act, though.
Hand of the Emperor isn't particularly good, but sometimes that 3" will just make the difference, so it's at least situational.
The Passion is a hard pass. Celestine, and maybe a Canoness, are really our only useful CQC units.

The key, I think is the 3CP strategem that lets you target a character and spread the Act to everybody around them. With Ebon Chalice; you blob up around a Dialogus, and get re-rollable 3+ +1 to hit for probably around half your army. It'll take a lot of CP's, though, but if Ministorium won't break our detachments any more, we at least won't have the choke of only being allowed 4 HQ's. I think an Ebon Chalice brigade just walking up the board sounds pretty good. Our slot-fillers for the FA/HS/Elite slots are pretty cheap, so we can get in quite a bit of CP in our own big detachment, and then bring a battalion or brigade of Guardsmen for more CP. There still won't be much left for other stratagems. You will have lots of faith points, lots of CP, and lots of bodies, which is a recipe for being good. Deficiency in general antitank is a shortcoming, but can be remedied by taking in the discounted Tank Commanders into the IG CP block.


Otherwise, you just tag a meltagun squad with Divine Guidance and hope you get a neat buff, but don't really focus on faith, since odds are you won't get the one you want when you want it.

The big nerf to Hand of the Emperor makes me sad. It was the best one, and really contributed to our general good-ness and aggressive character; I feel.