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Nah it's for any of them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nah it's for any of them.

Which makes total sense, because of the pure Primaris Chapters founded in the Indomitus Crusade, who'd also need Chief Apothecaries, Masters of Sanctity and so on.

Karol wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Karol wrote:
Does it matter if there is some neferious GW plan, or if they just don't think about it, in the end? What matters is that non primaris stuff does not get updated. And that is all. Any use from stuff like classic marines HQs, would evaporate if primaris HQs had a high mobility option. And RG technicly have one already, so it is more the case of we don't have a model right now, then there won't be a thunder hammer primaris chapter master with some sort of jet pack.

I do find myself wanting to defend the Primaris release occasionally because it looks like GW deliberately tried to not invalidate classic Marines, but it's also not hard to see it as GW just not being able to cover all the bases quickly enough. Classic Marines are still relevant because they have tools that Primaris don't have yet.

Primaris don't have anything that directly competes with Whirlwinds, Stalkers, Vindicators, Bikes, Vanguard Vets, or Capt. Smash, Esq. (or his associates Capt. Wheels and Lt. J. Pack.) It wouldn't take very many releases to change that. Especially since the only thing keeping the Classic range transports relevant is that Repulsors/Impulsors can't carry Centurions/Company Veterans.

primaris have 3 hulls to mount turrets on. to me this is more then enough to cover any type of vehicle normal marines have. rocket aritlery can be mounted on a repulsor just as well as it can be mounted on a rhino. but I guess GW likes to do the slow drip, so recasters and 3ed party companies can just specilised in the most used units or weapon load outs. Although even that ain't true, because the kromlech thunder cannons are selling real well.

Rocket artillery could be added to an Impulsor or Repulsor hull in the future. Such a thing does not exist now. That's kind of the point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Do you really count the vehicles in this case though? For intents and purposes, those don't have Manlet Marines poking out of them unless you're trying to model one firing a pintle weapon, which with just a little work can be done with a Primaris.

I absolutely do count them, because an Impulsor-based artillery tank, flak tank, or tank destroyer puts the equavalent Rhino-based tank out of business. If you have the option to take a hover-tank that can leave melee without penalty and (more importantly) can't be tri-pointed you're always going to take it over the conventional tank unless it's vastly more expensive.

You thought the Tac vs Intercessor debate was a joke, what about a 69pt Rhino and a 79pt Impulsor.

For 10pts you get an extra wound, Fly, 2" extra movement, the ability to deploy infantry after moving and finally the exclusive transport of primaris. 10pts!

But of course the argument is even a rhino can be made to "work"

 Smirrors wrote:
You thought the Tac vs Intercessor debate was a joke, what about a 69pt Rhino and a 79pt Impulsor.

For 10pts you get an extra wound, Fly, 2" extra movement, the ability to deploy infantry after moving and finally the exclusive transport of primaris. 10pts!

But of course the argument is even a rhino can be made to "work"

"The exclusive transport of Primaris" is a down-side, not an advantage. There are only two Primanis units that want to ride in the thing and only one of them can actually do so. If it could carry Company Veterans though...

What are you referring to? Impulsors can transport autobolt intercessors and eliminators. Both are great options.

Well i'd argue otherwise re disadvantage. Tacticals have a 67pt Rhino, prior to the Impulsor, Primaris had to resort to the Repulsor at 282pts. The Impulsor coming in at 79pts is a steal for what it does compared to a Rhino.

You could also argue that the rhino disadvantage is it cant carry primaris which is more prevalent than tacticals.

I am sure someone like Insectum could come up with ways to use the Rhino but its objectively inferior in almost every way. Its only advantage is it can carry Tacticals and my feelings on those have been made very clear.

 Smirrors wrote:
You thought the Tac vs Intercessor debate was a joke, what about a 69pt Rhino and a 79pt Impulsor.

For 10pts you get an extra wound, Fly, 2" extra movement, the ability to deploy infantry after moving and finally the exclusive transport of primaris. 10pts!

But of course the argument is even a rhino can be made to "work"

That is just a problem with GW having crap balance. They are either so dim as to not understand that comparison is way off, or they are pushing one model over another but people will say they never make rules to sell models. So who knows ?

Doesn't mean a rhino can't work though especially if it has to as for some reason old marines can't even get into the impulsor because of segregation that makes no sense at all but to move models. I'll tell you this though, my rhinos get much more work done because I will not buy these over priced jokes of internal balance so they have 0% success for me where rhinos do their job as well as can be expected, especially for chaos.

 Smirrors wrote:
What are you referring to? Impulsors can transport autobolt intercessors and eliminators. Both are great options.

Autobolter Intercessors and Eliminators are good on their own merits, but an advantage of both is that they have zero need for a transport. Bolt Rifle Intercessors would be a better argument, but they have Bolter Discipline and good range. The only units that care at all are Rapid Fire Hellblasters and Aggressors, and Aggressors can't use the thing.

Edit: ...ok, Autobolter or Bolt Rifle Veteran Intercessors with melee weapons for the Sergeants or a melee-focused Captain aren't arguing with getting into melee a turn sooner. They just don't need the transport to be worth fielding.

The Newman wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:
What are you referring to? Impulsors can transport autobolt intercessors and eliminators. Both are great options.

Autobolter Intercessors and Eliminators are good on their own merits, but an advantage of both is that they have zero need for a transport. Bolt Rifle Intercessors would be a better argument, but they have Bolter Discipline and good range. The only units that care at all are Rapid Fire Hellblasters and Aggressors, and Aggressors can't use the thing.

Edit: ...ok, Autobolter or Bolt Rifle Veteran Intercessors with melee weapons for the Sergeants or a melee-focused Captain aren't arguing with getting into melee a turn sooner. They just don't need the transport to be worth fielding.

Autobolt Intercessors are amazing in Impulsors. 14" Move, 3" Disembark with free 1", 6" Move, Optional D6" Advance, Fire 15 Shots. That is 24" Minimum move we are talking about. If you are playing both ITC or CA missions this is gold.

Eliminators are the same, people can avoid them by out ranging or try to kill them first. With an Impulsor that is virtually impossible to do. 59" threat range.

These are all legitimate competitive options to take. The boon is the Impulsor itself is great for what it does, the fact that you can bolster the effectiveness of your current good choices that you already take makes it even better.

This is a counter argument to a Rhino or Drop which is required to enhance the base unit which is subpar. Grav Devs are virtually useless without the Drop Pod as example.

 Smirrors wrote:

I am sure someone like Insectum could come up with ways to use the Rhino but its objectively inferior in almost every way. Its only advantage is it can carry Tacticals and my feelings on those have been made very clear.

Rhinos are better LOS blockers because they don't fly, and transport more models.

They're also prettier :p

Sure if you are just going to look at base rules with point costs, which are all subject to change. Take into account no realities of making an army around it, of course they are good options. You can play hard with both types of units and transports as of right now. With the side benefit being the old marines for many are already owned , and the new ones many would need to go out and buy and won't find with nearly the same discount second hand.

I like to look at the big picture unless someones just going to buy me all the best options its a matter of value on the table, mixed with value for dollar and enjoyment. The old marines with support units plus vehicles still get the job done well in most circumstances but for the most extreme of competitive scenes.

 Smirrors wrote:

Autobolt Intercessors are amazing in Impulsors. 14" Move, 3" Disembark with free 1", 6" Move, Optional D6" Advance, Fire 15 Shots. That is 24" Minimum move we are talking about. If you are playing both ITC or CA missions this is gold.

That seems not as exciting as 10 Sternguard in a Pod landing anywhere and sptting out 40 Storm Bolter shots.

Rhinos also have better transport efficiency.

The pts transported units / pts transport is way better for the rhino then all other options. 69pts to transport 178pts worth of marines (the way I run them) an impulsor (which is by far the best ratio they have for primaris) is 79 to 85, still not a bad ratio, but not nearly as good as the rhino, and to carry equivalent firepower to the tacs, they would need a lot more impulsors

That aside, Intercessors are good units in their own right, but more skilled players will be able to get better leverage out of tacticals. The generalist loadout requires better positioning and board sense but also allows for more efficient shooting when a variety of targets present themselves.

Vilehydra wrote:
Rhinos also have better transport efficiency.

The pts transported units / pts transport is way better for the rhino then all other options. 69pts to transport 178pts worth of marines (the way I run them) an impulsor (which is by far the best ratio they have for primaris) is 79 to 85, still not a bad ratio, but not nearly as good as the rhino, and to carry equivalent firepower to the tacs, they would need a lot more impulsors

That aside, Intercessors are good units in their own right, but more skilled players will be able to get better leverage out of tacticals. The generalist loadout requires better positioning and board sense but also allows for more efficient shooting when a variety of targets present themselves.

Which is the exact point of the tactical squad in its creation, leveraging good board control with board sense and flexible shooting against a variety of targets as they need to be engaged.

AngryAngel80 wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:
That aside, Intercessors are good units in their own right, but more skilled players will be able to get better leverage out of tacticals. The generalist loadout requires better positioning and board sense but also allows for more efficient shooting when a variety of targets present themselves.

Which is the exact point of the tactical squad in its creation, leveraging good board control with board sense and flexible shooting against a variety of targets as they need to be engaged.

But how do I stop them getting deleted? Transhuman physiology only allows me to save one unit, at which point my opponent just shoots the other two units instead.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:
That aside, Intercessors are good units in their own right, but more skilled players will be able to get better leverage out of tacticals. The generalist loadout requires better positioning and board sense but also allows for more efficient shooting when a variety of targets present themselves.

Which is the exact point of the tactical squad in its creation, leveraging good board control with board sense and flexible shooting against a variety of targets as they need to be engaged.

But how do I stop them getting deleted? Transhuman physiology only allows me to save one unit, at which point my opponent just shoots the other two units instead.

You don't, this edition see's often super heavies deleted in one turn and tougher units than tacs. Even the mighty intercessors aren't immune to this peril. There only safety is that they have gotten cheaper so you can field more of them and quantity has a quality all its own. You want to keep them alive, pray for a less swingy edition.

Edit: Or play Iron hands, they make everything better.

AngryAngel80 wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:
That aside, Intercessors are good units in their own right, but more skilled players will be able to get better leverage out of tacticals. The generalist loadout requires better positioning and board sense but also allows for more efficient shooting when a variety of targets present themselves.

Which is the exact point of the tactical squad in its creation, leveraging good board control with board sense and flexible shooting against a variety of targets as they need to be engaged.

But how do I stop them getting deleted? Transhuman physiology only allows me to save one unit, at which point my opponent just shoots the other two units instead.

You don't, this edition see's often super heavies deleted in one turn and tougher units than tacs. Even the mighty intercessors aren't immune to this peril. There only safety is that they have gotten cheaper so you can field more of them and quantity has a quality all its own. You want to keep them alive, pray for a less swingy edition.

Edit: Or play Iron hands, they make everything better.

Yeah, even Custodes feel like they're made of paper this edition.

That's because even a -1 halves the effectiveness of their armor.

It's true and it all goes back around to the fact that in this edition while some aspects are good, elite forces don't feel as elite in regard to survival.

In the real world we always face a struggle of weapon vs armor, sooner or later one beats the other and the race goes on. In 40k the game is far skewed towards offense being the only defense of worth. Which leads to elite type armies that rely on good armor and toughness feeling not very tough or safe. Just from how swingy most good weapons are, how armor works with modifiers and limitations of the point system not being granular enough to properly gauge worth on the table top. Not even mentioning Str V Toughness and how that makes lower strength weapons fired in heavy amounts more of a fearful prospect.

A bit of a rant but it would be nice if they figured out a way to make elite feel more elite and dial back the offensive creep so first turn didn't feel quite so brutal. As so far all they've done to make elite more elite is turn up the damage capability compounding the problem across the board.

Wanna know how to stop T1 from being so brutal? I'll give you a hint. It's not letting one player do everything in a single turn. The game is either Alpha or Beta strike basically simply because of IGOUGO.

Yes but they aren't going to so fundamentally change the game and I kind of think that would make the size of this game just amazingly cumbersome. It would require an entire game system redesign and I don't think we'll see that any time within the next decade at least.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Yes but they aren't going to so fundamentally change the game and I kind of think that would make the size of this game just amazingly cumbersome. It would require an entire game system redesign and I don't think we'll see that any time within the next decade at least.

If they were to, I don't know, stop designing armies around the idea that it should be possible to wipe half the other guy's force from the other side of the table top of turn one independent of LOS...

Warmahordes also had a problem with lethality (at least in Mk2) but it wasn't such a general problem for the game overall because of the weapon ranges. If your opponent focused on something that something was going to die, but first they had to get within range to attack it. Practically nothing could directly attack an enemy model at the top of turn one because 18" was a long range gun and deployment zones were something like 6" for player one and 10" for player two on a four foot table.

Reducing the range if something like a Whirlwind or a Basilisk to those kinds of numbers would be pretty immersion-breaking though.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Yes but they aren't going to so fundamentally change the game and I kind of think that would make the size of this game just amazingly cumbersome. It would require an entire game system redesign and I don't think we'll see that any time within the next decade at least.

No more cumbersome than now. People will legit still forget they had particular units and they have access to everything IN THEIR OWN TURN! I don't think it's a legit excuse especially for a game like this, where half an hour more of gameplay is better than how it is now with no interaction outside Stratagems.

Slayer-Fan123 does have a point about lethality being dulled if 40k operated away from IGOUGO. It is much harder to conduct a focused aplha strike if not only your target(s) has activated and is impotent for the rest of the round anyway, but d the rest of their units are crippling your unactivated units. You'll have a bunch of crippled units while they may have only lost a couple things. Those cripple units aren't likely to amount to much the remaining turns as the opponent basically mops up.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 does have a point about lethality being dulled if 40k operated away from IGOUGO. It is much harder to conduct a focused aplha strike if not only your target(s) has activated and is impotent for the rest of the round anyway, but d the rest of their units are crippling your unactivated units. You'll have a bunch of crippled units while they may have only lost a couple things. Those cripple units aren't likely to amount to much the remaining turns as the opponent basically mops up.

I've been saying it like an annoying broken record now as the forum can attest to, and they don't seem to understand this is where a lot of the game's issues comes from, especially when the game is extremely focused on shooting as is.

It would be short sighted to just change the game for that though. As then not only would horde armies win the CP farm role, but they'd also be able to go activation to activation with you and use their strong units, then still have a large amount of time with all their other horde o units.

I just think it would lead to unintended issues, much like CP farming which is dumb and and leads to lame army builds. It would further reward MSU style, cement in CP farms which are already an issue as is.

Which is why I said they'd need a game redesign and as they can't even be bothered to make good books or internal balance I doubt they'd put in the effort to tone back the lethal nature of the game to make it less swingy by altering the games core operational feature since forever.

That's way too much work for them.

Doing anything with a modicum of thought is too much for them at this point.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wanna know how to stop T1 from being so brutal? I'll give you a hint. It's not letting one player do everything in a single turn. The game is either Alpha or Beta strike basically simply because of IGOUGO.

You've never mentioned this before...

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wanna know how to stop T1 from being so brutal? I'll give you a hint. It's not letting one player do everything in a single turn. The game is either Alpha or Beta strike basically simply because of IGOUGO.

You've never mentioned this before...

I haven't been incorrect about it being a core problem regardless of how annoyed you are.