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Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

 LunarSol wrote:
I think PP has more ability to affect the local scene than you give them credit for. New releases for any game out there generate buzz and fuel excitement and more than anything, bring in new players. It has been a long long time since PP released anything that really enticed new players. It's almost entirely been attempts to appease the existing playerbase that increasingly just don't need more stuff.

Releases that make players feel like they're a good jumping on point are huge for any game. The number of people suddenly interested in MCP because of X-Men for example, or every time GW releases one of these army boxes with a really cool unique hero in them. I play a bit of everything and no matter how many demo days or events I run, it's immediately noticeable when there's a new release that gets a lot of hype. These things bring in new players, whether they play other systems and like some new shinies or are complete new to the hobby.

PP needs to signal to people that they should start Warmachine. Everything for years now has been selling the game as this infinite wall with no foothold to climb.

There are two ways to do starting points: new Edition/Mark or all-in-one army sets.

While I won't argue a new edition is warranted, we've already been over the problems with the all-in-one sets in that they rarely stay relevant for very long. I don't think we'll be seeing anything until they get off their Riot Quest kick. I think part of Riot Quest is to provide the funds to keep things going while they decide what to do next. Of course, they could also be looking at refining things with Warcaster so as to decide where they want to take WMH next on a rule scale.

Next problem is their distribution systems. Few wholesalers are providing stuff to the retailers. Even few retailers are providing their stuff in stores now, and haven't for some time.

And finally, if new players still feel blocked by the Steamroller crowd, there is little that Privateer Press can do. I know that there is a big enough crowd of burned players that will talk down new players from getting in to the game for precisely this reason.

Even with all that, you're still relying on a company to do what you cannot orwill not: inspire new players to join. If you can't do that now, it's still going to be hard no matter how "new" and "fresh" new stuff is going to be.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 Charistoph wrote:
TL;DR If you go through your gaming life expecting the company to provide everything for you to play, you will be disappointed. Be prepared to get out and help as much as you can.
A nice sentiment. Let me tell you how reality works:

Warmahordes is competing for appeal with Warhammer. The models are similarly priced for lower quality, and harder to physically obtain. The Warhammer community is huge and easy to access, the Warmahordes community is... not that. You want to tell people to get out and work so they can enjoy the hobby, while there is another hobby without that requirement right beside it? Don't start any businesses.

If you want to go through life with the naivety of a child as to how the world works fine, but don't expect actual adults to do anything but mock you when you try to imagine you're on some high and mighty platform above us. That you think a company can't affect it's own community is even more laughable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 04:35:19


 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
TL;DR If you go through your gaming life expecting the company to provide everything for you to play, you will be disappointed. Be prepared to get out and help as much as you can.
A nice sentiment. Let me tell you how reality works:

Warmahordes is competing for appeal with Warhammer. The models are similarly priced for lower quality, and harder to physically obtain. The Warhammer community is huge and easy to access, the Warmahordes community is... not that. You want to tell people to get out and work so they can enjoy the hobby, while there is another hobby without that requirement right beside it? Don't start any businesses.

If you want to go through life with the naivety of a child as to how the world works fine, but don't expect actual adults to do anything but mock you when you try to imagine you're on some high and mighty platform above us. That you think a company can't affect it's own community is even more laughable.

So many people see only the absolute in statements. Keep in mind of what you quoted, and I highlighted the significant above. Do not expect the producing company to do everything. This does not mean that the company cannot affect the situation, just that they can't be expected to do EVERYTHING. Even more so if they do not control every event for the game that is put on. It's not like they have an active control on every pickup game there is.

Actually, I find your sentiment naive in thinking that the work of the community is not needed in order for the community to grow. How much does Games Workshop actually do? The answer is, less and less. They used to have official events around the world, but nowadays, most "official" events are put on by local groups or Conventions, and have utilized their own tournament rulesets for years now. They used to have a forum, but now they don't. There are far more forums upkept by individuals and groups with no direct connection with Games Workshop, and the same could be said of Facebook groups.

This isn't to say that producing companies cannot affect the situation. Privateer Press's loss of wholesalers emphasizes this point quite well. However, Privateer Press did not require a person at one of the LGS in my metropolis to state, "We only play Steamroller here." That was all on him and the group at that store. Privateer Press made the Steamroller pamphlet, but does not require it to be the only way of playing the game. Privateer Press made the Journeyman League growth program, but one is not required to use it exclusively to grow the game in your area, even more so with Brawlmachine providing a new growth option.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 06:35:47


Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 NinthMusketeer wrote:

A nice sentiment. Let me tell you how reality works:

Warmahordes is competing for appeal with Warhammer. The models are similarly priced for lower quality, and harder to physically obtain. The Warhammer community is huge and easy to access, the Warmahordes community is... not that. You want to tell people to get out and work so they can enjoy the hobby, while there is another hobby without that requirement right beside it? Don't start any businesses.


He's not exactly wrong though. For the same reason that live Theatre survives in the era of blockbuster movies and sports other than football are still a thing, there is space for other games. No question though we are dealing with vastly smaller numbers though.

At the end of the day there will be those thst take the easy option, and those who find those gw games attractive. And there will be those that for whatever reason don't want to be involved in the gw bubble or simply want a break or a change- wargamung is not a marriage. It's not cheating to play another game.

With 40k as dominant as it actually is, it will take more legwork to get things moving. This isn't a bad thing or a naive thing, just an realistic assessment.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:


If you want to go through life with the naivety of a child as to how the world works fine, but don't expect actual adults to do anything but mock you when you try to imagine you're on some high and mighty platform above us. That you think a company can't affect it's own community is even more laughable.


It's not naive, at least to my reading- if yoy want to do.something other than what the popular kids are doing, you'll need to put in a lit more effort. Whether that's worth it can only be determined by you. I don't see that as being on a high and mighty platform and I don't think much of people mocking someone for not doing what the popular kids are doing.

A company can affect its community, but really can only do so much. especially in gaming, its just one side of a two sided coin. with such a social.front end, the community aspect (involvement, divergence or apathy) cannot be undervalued or underestimated either. In real life, community activism often gets things done when polichickens fail or cannot be bothered and community activism is what he's talking about here. Don't dismiss it out of hand.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 08:03:54


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




WM&H definitely lacks an affordable and accessible starting point. The only product that came near were the 2-player starter boxes. Really cheap and contained enough to have a meaningful experience.

Battle boxes are unfortunately not that. Minimum battlegroup doesn't offer anything but the possibility of learning the rules of the game.

LOS had a few articles describing "budget" Brawlmachine forces. I appreciate the effort but it also shows what "budget" means in the world of WM&H - 170$ for 25pt, 13 model skirmish force !!! Wanna know what I've got recently for ASOIAF with that amount of money?

Widely available starter sets with, say 25pts armies (battlegroup, a unit, UA, some solos), somewhere around 80$ would make a lot of people try the game out, be hooked and buy more I think. Even lower quality plastic (like that in battleboxes) would do to make it more affordable for a wider audience.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Grot Snipa





Atlanta, GA

Widely available starter sets with, say 25pts armies (battlegroup, a unit, UA, some solos), somewhere around 80$ would make a lot of people try the game out, be hooked and buy more I think. Even lower quality plastic (like that in battleboxes) would do to make it more affordable for a wider audience.


I agree on the first part, but hard disagree on the second. If PP wants to recover any sort of market share(and appeal to current/former Warhammer players), they need to ditch the cheap, lower quality plastics and move on. Even less popular games like Bolt Action and Konflict '47 have better plastics than the pvc stuff that Privateer Press offers. Before they shut their forums down, there were complaints for literal years about the plastics quality, and I thought when the company started slowly introducing HIPS miniatures that they were moving on the right path. Now obviously they've had some sort of setback with their Chinese production facility - I've heard something about the facility refusing to release various molds back to PP's control - but that's a setback they need to overcome. As it currently stands, you can't expect to charge premium prices for subpar quality plastics, no matter how good your game rules are.
   
Made in us
Destructive Daemon Prince





Albany, NY

Cyel wrote:
LOS had a few articles describing "budget" Brawlmachine forces. I appreciate the effort but it also shows what "budget" means in the world of WM&H - 170$ for 25pt, 13 model skirmish force !!!
I had the same thought when those articles went up - I've got a 25 pt Menoth force I'd like to play, but $200 new (and a ton of work)* for it means I'm more likely to stick to my existing minis and just play Menoth online, if that's a thing I really need.

It feels relevant to look at how Warcaster has been rolled out, since we're talking about PP's efforts to get people to play a game they're more actively investing in, not the massive, overburdened ship that is Warmachine. Personally, I failed to see much value in the Kickstarters (the discount wasn't steep enough compared to KS shipping, the stretch goals were IIRC in fact just more add-ons and I knew I'll eventually be able to pick the game up with some kind of discount if I just wait). At $70 USD the starters seem ... ok? I wish they were resin and not metal, but I'll take metal over restic, especially PP's restic. It seems pretty clear you'll want much more than that starter, but I'm going to assume that PP has built the missions and game to scale up from that starting point? Or maybe I'm just so out of touch with Warcaster that there's already a scene of people who demand to only play whatever the equivalent of 75 points is

* I'mma be real here: modern GW pricing is also preposterous for an army-scale wargame, which I usually justify because they make the best plastic wargaming kits available, but I've recently come to terms with as a major impediment to Running What You Want. Like, I feel for Ork players, who have to pay $$$$ to field an army that also sucks, versus marine players who have to pay $$/$$$ for an army that's competent to great. Feels like simple economics, while also being a bummer. Outside of Howlers, I'm not quite sure if PP stacks up the same way, plus the occasional hemorrhaging of the secondary market helps make WMH more affordable.

KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in us
Uhlan





 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
TL;DR If you go through your gaming life expecting the company to provide everything for you to play, you will be disappointed. Be prepared to get out and help as much as you can.
A nice sentiment. Let me tell you how reality works:

Warmahordes is competing for appeal with Warhammer. The models are similarly priced for lower quality, and harder to physically obtain. The Warhammer community is huge and easy to access, the Warmahordes community is... not that. You want to tell people to get out and work so they can enjoy the hobby, while there is another hobby without that requirement right beside it? Don't start any businesses.

If you want to go through life with the naivety of a child as to how the world works fine, but don't expect actual adults to do anything but mock you when you try to imagine you're on some high and mighty platform above us. That you think a company can't affect it's own community is even more laughable.


Good points on why Press Ganger program needs a relaunch. Wyrd has one, Mantic has one, don't know why PP discontinued. I don't know maybe it has to do with Seattle and Antifa presence "I am a press ganger ego I need pay". If so, come down to Texas!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr. Grey wrote:
Widely available starter sets with, say 25pts armies (battlegroup, a unit, UA, some solos), somewhere around 80$ would make a lot of people try the game out, be hooked and buy more I think. Even lower quality plastic (like that in battleboxes) would do to make it more affordable for a wider audience.


I agree on the first part, but hard disagree on the second. If PP wants to recover any sort of market share(and appeal to current/former Warhammer players), they need to ditch the cheap, lower quality plastics and move on. Even less popular games like Bolt Action and Konflict '47 have better plastics than the pvc stuff that Privateer Press offers. Before they shut their forums down, there were complaints for literal years about the plastics quality, and I thought when the company started slowly introducing HIPS miniatures that they were moving on the right path. Now obviously they've had some sort of setback with their Chinese production facility - I've heard something about the facility refusing to release various molds back to PP's control - but that's a setback they need to overcome. As it currently stands, you can't expect to charge premium prices for subpar quality plastics, no matter how good your game rules are.


Similiar situation just happened to Telsa. When will people learn. PP is going to lose their IP to China just like they lost control of MonPoc to Hollywood for years. I guess there is a light, we could all be playing Warmachine, Chinese Communist Party WMH's.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
marxlives wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
TL;DR If you go through your gaming life expecting the company to provide everything for you to play, you will be disappointed. Be prepared to get out and help as much as you can.
A nice sentiment. Let me tell you how reality works:

Warmahordes is competing for appeal with Warhammer. The models are similarly priced for lower quality, and harder to physically obtain. The Warhammer community is huge and easy to access, the Warmahordes community is... not that. You want to tell people to get out and work so they can enjoy the hobby, while there is another hobby without that requirement right beside it? Don't start any businesses.

If you want to go through life with the naivety of a child as to how the world works fine, but don't expect actual adults to do anything but mock you when you try to imagine you're on some high and mighty platform above us. That you think a company can't affect it's own community is even more laughable.


Good points on why Press Ganger program needs a relaunch. Wyrd has one, Mantic has one, don't know why PP discontinued. I don't know maybe it has to do with Seattle and Antifa presence "I am a press ganger ego I need pay". If so, come down to Texas!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr. Grey wrote:
Widely available starter sets with, say 25pts armies (battlegroup, a unit, UA, some solos), somewhere around 80$ would make a lot of people try the game out, be hooked and buy more I think. Even lower quality plastic (like that in battleboxes) would do to make it more affordable for a wider audience.


I agree on the first part, but hard disagree on the second. If PP wants to recover any sort of market share(and appeal to current/former Warhammer players), they need to ditch the cheap, lower quality plastics and move on. Even less popular games like Bolt Action and Konflict '47 have better plastics than the pvc stuff that Privateer Press offers. Before they shut their forums down, there were complaints for literal years about the plastics quality, and I thought when the company started slowly introducing HIPS miniatures that they were moving on the right path. Now obviously they've had some sort of setback with their Chinese production facility - I've heard something about the facility refusing to release various molds back to PP's control - but that's a setback they need to overcome. As it currently stands, you can't expect to charge premium prices for subpar quality plastics, no matter how good your game rules are.


Similiar situation just happened to Telsa. When will people learn. PP is going to lose their IP to China just like they lost control of MonPoc to Hollywood for years. I guess there is a light, we could all be playing Warmachine, Chinese Communist Party WMH's.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Boss Salvage wrote:
Cyel wrote:
LOS had a few articles describing "budget" Brawlmachine forces. I appreciate the effort but it also shows what "budget" means in the world of WM&H - 170$ for 25pt, 13 model skirmish force !!!
I had the same thought when those articles went up - I've got a 25 pt Menoth force I'd like to play, but $200 new (and a ton of work)* for it means I'm more likely to stick to my existing minis and just play Menoth online, if that's a thing I really need.

It feels relevant to look at how Warcaster has been rolled out, since we're talking about PP's efforts to get people to play a game they're more actively investing in, not the massive, overburdened ship that is Warmachine. Personally, I failed to see much value in the Kickstarters (the discount wasn't steep enough compared to KS shipping, the stretch goals were IIRC in fact just more add-ons and I knew I'll eventually be able to pick the game up with some kind of discount if I just wait). At $70 USD the starters seem ... ok? I wish they were resin and not metal, but I'll take metal over restic, especially PP's restic. It seems pretty clear you'll want much more than that starter, but I'm going to assume that PP has built the missions and game to scale up from that starting point? Or maybe I'm just so out of touch with Warcaster that there's already a scene of people who demand to only play whatever the equivalent of 75 points is

* I'mma be real here: modern GW pricing is also preposterous for an army-scale wargame, which I usually justify because they make the best plastic wargaming kits available, but I've recently come to terms with as a major impediment to Running What You Want. Like, I feel for Ork players, who have to pay $$$$ to field an army that also sucks, versus marine players who have to pay $$/$$$ for an army that's competent to great. Feels like simple economics, while also being a bummer. Outside of Howlers, I'm not quite sure if PP stacks up the same way, plus the occasional hemorrhaging of the secondary market helps make WMH more affordable.


Warcaster is not built like a regular wargame. 15 models sit on a bench (repeats can only be 4 not counting characters) and then you use focus and void gates to pay models to enter the board. Most of the time you have 5 models on any given moment. When models "die" they go on the bench.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A pretty cool interview on the state of the company. https://www.loswarmachine.com/field-of-fire/2021/5/1/episode-36-special-guest-william-hungerford?fbclid=IwAR26VzZ29bdx_8g8IjV9UQOJkHsQ1nnVpXMXyqVQsXkNJ3geuJfJhErwQ4U

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/05/05 16:05:48


 
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




 Mr. Grey wrote:
As it currently stands, you can't expect to charge premium prices for subpar quality plastics, no matter how good your game rules are.


I don't know ... I think new players would rather start with affordable entry level than swag. They don't know if the game is worth it yet. In GW terms: new players buy inexpensive "start collecting" sets and space marine tactical squads, vets buy Nagashes and Baneblades. If you want to convince someone to try, you tell them it's not that expenisve to start, not that the models are exquisitly detailed. Newbies often don't even notice these differences, you should see what people on boardgame forums consider good models or good paintjobs.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having cheap starter sets of average quality to pull people in. For instance ASOIAF is doing pretty well with really average models, of more boardgame than wargame quality.
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

 Mr. Grey wrote:
Widely available starter sets with, say 25pts armies (battlegroup, a unit, UA, some solos), somewhere around 80$ would make a lot of people try the game out, be hooked and buy more I think. Even lower quality plastic (like that in battleboxes) would do to make it more affordable for a wider audience.


I agree on the first part, but hard disagree on the second. If PP wants to recover any sort of market share(and appeal to current/former Warhammer players), they need to ditch the cheap, lower quality plastics and move on. Even less popular games like Bolt Action and Konflict '47 have better plastics than the pvc stuff that Privateer Press offers. Before they shut their forums down, there were complaints for literal years about the plastics quality, and I thought when the company started slowly introducing HIPS miniatures that they were moving on the right path. Now obviously they've had some sort of setback with their Chinese production facility - I've heard something about the facility refusing to release various molds back to PP's control - but that's a setback they need to overcome. As it currently stands, you can't expect to charge premium prices for subpar quality plastics, no matter how good your game rules are.

Maybe they should talk to whoever does Catalyst Gaming Labs' miniatures for their Battletech starters and new Lance/Star Packs. The detail on them is actually quite good, and they come assembled!

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 Charistoph wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
TL;DR If you go through your gaming life expecting the company to provide everything for you to play, you will be disappointed. Be prepared to get out and help as much as you can.
A nice sentiment. Let me tell you how reality works:

Warmahordes is competing for appeal with Warhammer. The models are similarly priced for lower quality, and harder to physically obtain. The Warhammer community is huge and easy to access, the Warmahordes community is... not that. You want to tell people to get out and work so they can enjoy the hobby, while there is another hobby without that requirement right beside it? Don't start any businesses.

If you want to go through life with the naivety of a child as to how the world works fine, but don't expect actual adults to do anything but mock you when you try to imagine you're on some high and mighty platform above us. That you think a company can't affect it's own community is even more laughable.

So many people see only the absolute in statements. Keep in mind of what you quoted, and I highlighted the significant above. Do not expect the producing company to do everything. This does not mean that the company cannot affect the situation, just that they can't be expected to do EVERYTHING. Even more so if they do not control every event for the game that is put on. It's not like they have an active control on every pickup game there is.
You started this by depicting my sentiment as a polarized absolute that is completely different from my opinion, so I assumed that was the level you wanted to converse on. If you want your positions to be treated with respect to nuance do the same for others.
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
TL;DR If you go through your gaming life expecting the company to provide everything for you to play, you will be disappointed. Be prepared to get out and help as much as you can.
A nice sentiment. Let me tell you how reality works:

Warmahordes is competing for appeal with Warhammer. The models are similarly priced for lower quality, and harder to physically obtain. The Warhammer community is huge and easy to access, the Warmahordes community is... not that. You want to tell people to get out and work so they can enjoy the hobby, while there is another hobby without that requirement right beside it? Don't start any businesses.

If you want to go through life with the naivety of a child as to how the world works fine, but don't expect actual adults to do anything but mock you when you try to imagine you're on some high and mighty platform above us. That you think a company can't affect it's own community is even more laughable.

So many people see only the absolute in statements. Keep in mind of what you quoted, and I highlighted the significant above. Do not expect the producing company to do everything. This does not mean that the company cannot affect the situation, just that they can't be expected to do EVERYTHING. Even more so if they do not control every event for the game that is put on. It's not like they have an active control on every pickup game there is.
You started this by depicting my sentiment as a polarized absolute that is completely different from my opinion, so I assumed that was the level you wanted to converse on. If you want your positions to be treated with respect to nuance do the same for others.

You said:
NinthMusketeer wrote:I don't think people are asking for the popularity of the 40k scene, they are just asking that Warmahordes get back to the level of community it previously had. And really, it is on the company to convince players to spend money on their miniatures.

I highlighted the point. You did not represent this as not needing anything from the community. While a company can do a lot to influence something, if a community is not there to accept it, what the company does will not matter.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Grot Snipa





Atlanta, GA

Cyel wrote:
 Mr. Grey wrote:
As it currently stands, you can't expect to charge premium prices for subpar quality plastics, no matter how good your game rules are.


I don't know ... I think new players would rather start with affordable entry level than swag. They don't know if the game is worth it yet. In GW terms: new players buy inexpensive "start collecting" sets and space marine tactical squads, vets buy Nagashes and Baneblades. If you want to convince someone to try, you tell them it's not that expenisve to start, not that the models are exquisitly detailed. Newbies often don't even notice these differences, you should see what people on boardgame forums consider good models or good paintjobs.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having cheap starter sets of average quality to pull people in. For instance ASOIAF is doing pretty well with really average models, of more boardgame than wargame quality.


Even GW's Start Collecting boxes are their own full-quality minis, though. What I'm trying to get at is that quite often, Privateer Press is charging near-GW prices for miniatures that aren't even close to that quality, and even an entry-level set should be at least decent.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





marxlives wrote:

Good points on why Press Ganger program needs a relaunch. Wyrd has one, Mantic has one, don't know why PP discontinued. I don't know maybe it has to do with Seattle and Antifa presence "I am a press ganger ego I need pay". If so, come down to Texas!


The official reason given is the press ganger program got to large and they didn't have the resources to properly manage it. Think it was similar to the Book line where they got someone to run it, that person did very well then they left the company and PP didn't really have the ability to bring someone in to take over (probably cost related as replacements would need to be more experienced to run existing projects then people with no experience starting something from scratch) but instead handed it off to someone else in the company that didn't have the time to properly deal with the extra work so they killed it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/06 07:52:00


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Covid not withstanding, the fact that we are still discussing the same issues, problems, pains and blockers around WM/H and PP without any real sight of resolution or improvement many years after Mk3 launch says it all. In fact its arguably got much worse.

Looking back over all the posts here and on social media its just depressing. Iv just reached the end of my willingness to let it take up my time.

Iv made the decision over the weekend that I will just continue to paint the stuff i already have. I will check back in and reassess my involvement with the game once I have completed my house move over summer. Depending on how things are with my new location and the game in general i'll either pick it up as my second game or walk away entirely for now.

I hope that PP can improve things but im another once loyal and enthusiastic player on the verge of calling it a day.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm actually writing up a wee homebrew at the moment.

Think late 19th century skirmish, strongly inspired by infinity and simplified like warcry. It's the game the guys in my group have wanted for a long time, so I might as well try my hand at it. I don't expect it to be very good, but that's nearly besides the point.

I'll be using my wmh infantry models for this, and instead of a warcaster, led by a gun mage and a sergeant. :p

Very much not-wmh at all but at least for me, a way to upcycle them.

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Deadnight wrote:
I'm actually writing up a wee homebrew at the moment.

Think late 19th century skirmish, strongly inspired by infinity and simplified like warcry. It's the game the guys in my group have wanted for a long time, so I might as well try my hand at it. I don't expect it to be very good, but that's nearly besides the point.

I'll be using my wmh infantry models for this, and instead of a warcaster, led by a gun mage and a sergeant. :p

Very much not-wmh at all but at least for me, a way to upcycle them.


You might want to check this out: https://www.loswarmachine.com/fallen-corvis/2021/4/17/fallen-corvis-update-11
   
Made in us
Uhlan





Deadnight wrote:
I'm actually writing up a wee homebrew at the moment.

Think late 19th century skirmish, strongly inspired by infinity and simplified like warcry. It's the game the guys in my group have wanted for a long time, so I might as well try my hand at it. I don't expect it to be very good, but that's nearly besides the point.

I'll be using my wmh infantry models for this, and instead of a warcaster, led by a gun mage and a sergeant. :p

Very much not-wmh at all but at least for me, a way to upcycle them.


Sounds alot like Fallen Corvis for WMH. Check out the beta, maybe get some inspiration for your homebrew. https://www.loswarmachine.com/fallen-corvis


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sunno wrote:
Covid not withstanding, the fact that we are still discussing the same issues, problems, pains and blockers around WM/H and PP without any real sight of resolution or improvement many years after Mk3 launch says it all. In fact its arguably got much worse.

Looking back over all the posts here and on social media its just depressing. Iv just reached the end of my willingness to let it take up my time.

Iv made the decision over the weekend that I will just continue to paint the stuff i already have. I will check back in and reassess my involvement with the game once I have completed my house move over summer. Depending on how things are with my new location and the game in general i'll either pick it up as my second game or walk away entirely for now.

I hope that PP can improve things but im another once loyal and enthusiastic player on the verge of calling it a day.


Congratulations on the house move. Sounds more like life happening than the game itself. Social media is fun, but you can't let it dictate your reality. From what I gather between these forums (which usually have old dudes) and the new blood it really sounds like the community consists of older crowd lamenting that they don't play anymore usually this has more to do with family/career growth intermixed with nostolgia of good times lost, and young people who are enjoying the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr. Grey wrote:
Cyel wrote:
 Mr. Grey wrote:
As it currently stands, you can't expect to charge premium prices for subpar quality plastics, no matter how good your game rules are.


I don't know ... I think new players would rather start with affordable entry level than swag. They don't know if the game is worth it yet. In GW terms: new players buy inexpensive "start collecting" sets and space marine tactical squads, vets buy Nagashes and Baneblades. If you want to convince someone to try, you tell them it's not that expenisve to start, not that the models are exquisitly detailed. Newbies often don't even notice these differences, you should see what people on boardgame forums consider good models or good paintjobs.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having cheap starter sets of average quality to pull people in. For instance ASOIAF is doing pretty well with really average models, of more boardgame than wargame quality.


Even GW's Start Collecting boxes are their own full-quality minis, though. What I'm trying to get at is that quite often, Privateer Press is charging near-GW prices for miniatures that aren't even close to that quality, and even an entry-level set should be at least decent.



I can see that between online discounts and occassional PP online store deals the price point is pretty good. I guess it could be done at the retailer level but distribution is so bad at the hobby level right now unless you are GW or WOTC it seems like PP is more invested on individual retailers and those relationships.

I think when we were seeing super low WMH model prices, 1) China wasn't screwing foreign companies for their IPs as much 2) online store policy was super loose. Just like Tesla recently learned the price of buying into the China dream without having a politician in you pocket, PP is learning the value of in house plastic casting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Did you all know that there is a MonPoc radio show? For reals. https://www.loswarmachine.com/field-of-fire/2021/1/18/episode-30-monpoc-radio-play-part-1

You all know of any WMH radio shows?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/06 15:21:20


 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

Sunno wrote:
Covid not withstanding, the fact that we are still discussing the same issues, problems, pains and blockers around WM/H and PP without any real sight of resolution or improvement many years after Mk3 launch says it all. In fact its arguably got much worse.

You're not wrong. PP presence was dropping too fast for years now. The last year didn't help at all, but they were out of most of my metro's LGS had clearanced them out before anyone had heard of lockdowns.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






marxlives wrote:
Sounds alot like Fallen Corvis for WMH. Check out the beta, maybe get some inspiration for your homebrew. https://www.loswarmachine.com/fallen-corvis



Hey guys, cheers for the link. It's not quite what I'm after (I've got a slightly different direction in mind) but I really appreciate the link.

Fallen corvis looks very interesting. Might have to put this forward as a suggestion as well.

Thanks!

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




marxlives wrote:

I can see that between online discounts and occassional PP online store deals the price point is pretty good. I guess it could be done at the retailer level but distribution is so bad at the hobby level right now unless you are GW or WOTC it seems like PP is more invested on individual retailers and those relationships.


Maybe it's a US thing.

Here's my preferred Polish online store and it's prices (lower than the other 2 that also sell WM&H)

cavalry
4 CMON Stark Outriders 119 PLN https://mgla.pl/produkt/stark-outriders,21737
10 Mantic Elf cavalry - 95 PLN https://mgla.pl/produkt/elf-stormwind-cavalry-regiment,7068
10 Chaos Knights, GW, 158 PLN https://mgla.pl/produkt/chaos-knights,17822
5 Nyss Raptors 321 PLN (!!!! ) https://mgla.pl/produkt/blighted-nyss-raptors,5877
5 Bane Riders - 233 PLN https://mgla.pl/produkt/bane-riders,8325

Infantry
13 Stark Swornswords 110 PLN https://mgla.pl/produkt/stark-sworn-swords,21752
20 Mantic clansmen 80 PLN https://mgla.pl/produkt/northern-alliance-clansman-regiment,23177
10 Primaris Intercessors 142 PLN https://mgla.pl/produkt/space-marines-primaris-intercessors,19011
10 Exemplar Errant 181 PLN (with UA 250 PLN) https://mgla.pl/produkt/northern-alliance-clansman-regiment,23177
12 Crucible Guard infantry 199 PLN https://mgla.pl/produkt/crucible-guard-infantry,21301

big models
mammoth - 500PLN https://mgla.pl/produkt/gargantuan-mammoth,6185 vs Allarielle 331 PLN https://mgla.pl/produkt/sylvaneth-alarielle-the-everqueen,17283
trollblood war wagon - 320 PLN https://mgla.pl/produkt/war-wagon,5799 vs Celestial Hurricanum 157 PLN https://mgla.pl/produkt/celestial-hurricanum-luminark-of-hysh,7809

etc...
   
Made in us
Stealthy Grot Snipa





Atlanta, GA

I think when we were seeing super low WMH model prices, 1) China wasn't screwing foreign companies for their IPs as much 2) online store policy was super loose. Just like Tesla recently learned the price of buying into the China dream without having a politician in you pocket, PP is learning the value of in house plastic casting.


What does this even mean?

We(the customers) AFAIK don't actually have any concrete information on what happened with PP's production facilities - as far as I'm aware, it's all been second or third-hand information. Something happened, and it's left PP scrambling to produce miniatures in-house rather than overseas. For what it's worth, plastic casting is still an incredibly expensive process and I'm not really sure that Privateer has the capital for that. Which is why Warcaster is largely pewter or pewter/resin combinations.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Why would a gaming store put any effort into promoting or hosting WMH when they can't sell the product line? It would just be spending money and labor with little to no return.
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman




Illinois

There’s a similar discussion happening on somethingawful right now, I think this quote by the poster stabbington there sums it up pretty well:


Honestly the big problem at the heart of all of it is that Privateer's hot combo of miserably egomaniacal leadership and poverty wages in the increasingly expensive Seattle metro area led to basically every bit of design and logistics talent they've ever had bailing on them over the period encompassing the end of Mk2/beginning of Mk3. Killing their relationship with game stores by getting addicted to the convention/internet pre-release dollar (guaranteeing that their core, hardcore audience bought direct instead of from the stores that should be stocking things with the hope of growing the game), their piss-poor output of hard plastic models, Mk3's rules being undercooked on release, their absurdly bad european allocation of Mk3 launch product, it all traces back to an inability to retain talented people because the bosses are too up their own asses and the money isn't good enough to put up with the bs.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Rectal cephalostasis is all too common among leadership figures.

Donate now and you too can sponsor a poor wealthy business owner, unable to properly lead with his head lodged so far up his own anal passage.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kommisar wrote:
There’s a similar discussion happening on somethingawful right now, I think this quote by the poster stabbington there sums it up pretty well:


Would yoy mind pm'ing me a link - I wouldn't mind seeing an alternative pov.

On topic,I've heard less than stellar chat about working at pp.

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in gb
Hungry Ork Hunta Lying in Wait





I recently tried to rejoin Warmahordes with my Trollbloods, because god damn it the MOUNTAIN KING (caps needed) is one of my fave models of all time.

I got up to date with the rules, played at 50 pts aaaand... wow I forgot how much I hated Caster Kill insta losses and how themes basically made my collection from mk2 split up and unable to fit neatly in any with the annoying "free models" which I've hated in any game system ever.

I'd love to play more of it, but the game needs a retool from the ground up, and Im nearly convinced PP doesn't have it in them. They've pretty much been cut off from most local hobby stores who refuse to even try and order in PP products

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3781606&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=365

DA70+S++G++M(GD)B+++I++++Pw40k96-D+++A++/mWD218R+++T(M)DM++ 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Grot Snipa





Atlanta, GA

 Kommisar wrote:
There’s a similar discussion happening on somethingawful right now, I think this quote by the poster stabbington there sums it up pretty well:


Honestly the big problem at the heart of all of it is that Privateer's hot combo of miserably egomaniacal leadership and poverty wages in the increasingly expensive Seattle metro area led to basically every bit of design and logistics talent they've ever had bailing on them over the period encompassing the end of Mk2/beginning of Mk3. Killing their relationship with game stores by getting addicted to the convention/internet pre-release dollar (guaranteeing that their core, hardcore audience bought direct instead of from the stores that should be stocking things with the hope of growing the game), their piss-poor output of hard plastic models, Mk3's rules being undercooked on release, their absurdly bad european allocation of Mk3 launch product, it all traces back to an inability to retain talented people because the bosses are too up their own asses and the money isn't good enough to put up with the bs.


That's a really great summary, honestly. What is Matt Wilson even doing these days? Is he still trying to make it big in Hollywood?

And I've heard similar about PP's absolute dismal salaries considering the incredibly high cost area they're based in. Now granted, I've heard that GW doesn't pay particularly well either, but then, they're also not based in a major metro like London for example.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wages causing people to leave is understandable. But it's not like this hobby is aflush in money unless you're a higher up in GW (though I understand they pay better then most companies for in house staff, just not as much as they could). Margins are really low on lots of this stuff because we balk at paying anymore for it.

I do find it funny how much people hate Matt. I think too much gets blamed on him as he's the public face and easy to hate on pretty much to a crazy conspiracy level. It makes it hard to take any other statement included with such casual hate towards him as being of any value because I've never heard anything that's even somewhat believable proof that he's this evil, egotistical human being out to destroy everyone favorite game. People like that aren't good at hiding it and if it were true Matt would make Kevin Siembieda look respectable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/07 16:48:51


 
   
 
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