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 JNAProductions wrote:
Bolt Rifles can hit AP-3 in Tactical Doctrine with a Strat or WT.
Stalker Bolt Rifles are AP-3 in Devastator Doctrine.

I'm glad you pointed out small arms can stack AP to get to AP-3. We see Ignore AP-1 or AP-2 abilities in game, as a result I've seen many people suggest applying that rule to tanks as a simple solution to the problem of tanks getting mulched by non-AT weapons. But then we have AP-3 Bolters. If we continue that line of thought and give tanks Ignore AP-3 well that begins to affect a lot of weapons that should threaten tanks and the whole thing gets messy.

Perhaps a simple solution might be that only weapons with a Vehicle Bane special rule get to apply AP to Vehicles. This way the latest and greatest bolters can be AP-11 and punch a hole straight through the eye of terror but have no impact on your friendly neighborhood Leman Russ.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/14 04:40:24


 
   
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 The Red Hobbit wrote:
...I'm glad you pointed out small arms can stack AP to get to AP-3. We see Ignore AP-1 or AP-2 abilities in game, as a result I've seen many people suggest applying that rule to tanks as a simple solution to the problem of tanks getting mulched by non-AT weapons. But then we have AP-3 Bolters. If we continue that line of thought and give tanks Ignore AP-3 well that begins to affect a lot of weapons that should threaten tanks and the whole thing gets messy.

Perhaps a simple solution might be that only weapons with a Vehicle Bane special rule get to apply AP to Vehicles. This way the latest and greatest bolters can be AP-11 and punch a hole straight through the eye of terror but have no impact on your friendly neighborhood Leman Russ.


Or...you could revise the to-wound table (including a "no" line) and skip needing to stack more special rules on top of special rules on top of special rules?

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 JNAProductions wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
What small arms are AP-3?

Bolt Rifles can hit AP-3 in Tactical Doctrine with a Strat or WT.
Stalker Bolt Rifles are AP-3 in Devastator Doctrine.


So the problem for some SM units is.... a bunch of other SM units. Nothing new here .


 
   
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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Yeah, DG bolters stack to... AP 0. Unless there is a lord of virulence within 6", then it's AP-1 on every 6 to wound you roll.

Well, technically you could use the worst stratagem in the book to have those bolters be AP-4 on rolls of sixes, but that stratagem specifically talks about plague infected eating through armor.

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 ClockworkZion wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
What AA can my daemons take?

Nurgle daemons specifically, but honestly, what AA guns do daemons have at all?

Thoughts and prayers?


Nasty thoughts and prayers...

Honestly at this point I would hark back to 1st edition where weapons could do a lot of wounds, but vehicles had a lot of damage.

For comparison when multimelta did 4d6 damage Land Raiders had 50 damage points. So say if they are 2x D6 (D6+2) that would be against a t8 tank originally at 4+ to hit doing 3.5 damage per firing, it does 1.75 now... So if you wanted that dynamic back make a land raider 25 wounds (a bit much I suspect...).

If you want to go crazy have a critical hit mechanism. Do 6 or more damage with 1 shot (no extra dice to roll or plinking criticals) roll of a dice. 1-3 - immobilised (GW loves their exposed tracks), 4-5 - weapon of owning players choice destroyed, 6 - take D6 mortal wounds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 07:58:30


 
   
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No one's taking stalker bolt rifles.

They certainly aren't taking them so 100 points worth can maybe do 2 wounds on a tank.

Really feel there's just a philosophy disagreement here. Yes if someone shoots 400-500 points worth of infantry into a tank they would expect to do some wounds, but... so? The fact a bolt gun can do some damage to a tank isn't oppressive, because by and large this is an inefficient use of firepower.

The whole issue of "mid-tier" guns feels like something from 8th and was made possible with rerolls. Disintegrators are not nearly as attractive versus tanks without reroll 1s to hit and wound (and successive points hikes). Plasma spam was a function of points - (its unclear S8 AP-3 2 damage is really a "mid tier" gun - the point is that 2 shots at 2 damage was more reliable than 1 D6 damage shot, for quite a bit more points.)

The issues are nu-anti tank, which can get 100% returns (or more) versus a range of tanks/monsters. And allowing your opponent such trades, from across the other side of the table with little counterplay beyond solid LOS-blocking terrain, is a good way to lose a game. So people avoid them by not playing these units.
   
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Tyel wrote:
No one's taking stalker bolt rifles.

They certainly aren't taking them so 100 points worth can maybe do 2 wounds on a tank.

Really feel there's just a philosophy disagreement here. Yes if someone shoots 400-500 points worth of infantry into a tank they would expect to do some wounds, but... so? The fact a bolt gun can do some damage to a tank isn't oppressive, because by and large this is an inefficient use of firepower.

No. Infact i only ever expect to scratch stuff like raiders if i use such weaponry against vehicles. there's a reason for AT weapons in squads and AT weapons in general to exist.

The whole issue of "mid-tier" guns feels like something from 8th and was made possible with rerolls. Disintegrators are not nearly as attractive versus tanks without reroll 1s to hit and wound (and successive points hikes). Plasma spam was a function of points - (its unclear S8 AP-3 2 damage is really a "mid tier" gun - the point is that 2 shots at 2 damage was more reliable than 1 D6 damage shot, for quite a bit more points.)

The issues are nu-anti tank, which can get 100% returns (or more) versus a range of tanks/monsters. And allowing your opponent such trades, from across the other side of the table with little counterplay beyond solid LOS-blocking terrain, is a good way to lose a game. So people avoid them by not playing these units.

So long the wound chart is what it is, and stuff like votwl exist mid strength weapons will quite easily devastate tanks if the pendulum swings back away from hyper efficent heavy AT in the form of the too cheap multi meltas.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

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VotLW is an 8th edition stratagem which we already know will be nerfed.

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 AnomanderRake wrote:

Or...you could revise the to-wound table (including a "no" line) and skip needing to stack more special rules on top of special rules on top of special rules?

Very true but part of the 8th Ed Design Philosophy which they seemed very happy about is that any weapon can wound anything. I don't think they're going to walk that one back for a while. I just hope we can get a resolution on making tanks more resilient that doesn't involve a proliferation of even more Invul saves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 15:41:46


 
   
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Make all weapons with strength half or less of the toughness, do neg 1 damage, to include 0.

Now you can't wound a titan ever with lasguns, autoguns, or bolters. But you can still shoot bolters at Rhinos or Custodes bikers.
   
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I think one thing that might help tanks survive, is if they can launch their smoke launchers when targeted, but without needing a stratagem. Also the whole I can't shoot this phase now is harsh, they should just get -1 to hit.
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Make all weapons with strength half or less of the toughness, do neg 1 damage, to include 0.

Now you can't wound a titan ever with lasguns, autoguns, or bolters. But you can still shoot bolters at Rhinos or Custodes bikers.


Yeah, I have thought about that as well, but essentially this would only hurt S3 weapons, which aren't a problem to begin with. Most people here seem to be complaining about S4-6 weapons.

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I still really like the idea of always wounding on a 6 and always doing atleast 1 damage.
   
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bat702 wrote:
I think one thing that might help tanks survive, is if they can launch their smoke launchers when targeted, but without needing a stratagem. Also the whole I can't shoot this phase now is harsh, they should just get -1 to hit.


I have probably blown over a dozen CP on landraider's smoke launchers and I can assure you -1 to hit doesn't do gak to help it survive

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I still think a 2+ save would go a long ways towards making actual tanks less vulnerable to small arms and low-AP mid-power guns, and more wounds would help boost vehicle survivability in general.

I'd rather not throw more special rules at things to fix a problem driven largely by the core statlines.
   
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Jidmah wrote:
bat702 wrote:
I think one thing that might help tanks survive, is if they can launch their smoke launchers when targeted, but without needing a stratagem. Also the whole I can't shoot this phase now is harsh, they should just get -1 to hit.


I have probably blown over a dozen CP on landraider's smoke launchers and I can assure you -1 to hit doesn't do gak to help it survive

Really? Helps mine. Guns tend to do less damage when they don't hit.

catbarf wrote:I still think a 2+ save would go a long ways towards making actual tanks less vulnerable to small arms and low-AP mid-power guns, and more wounds would help boost vehicle survivability in general.

I'd rather not throw more special rules at things to fix a problem driven largely by the core statlines.

Agreed. Tanks should have 2+ saves.
   
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Tanks in general need +1T and +1Save for no additional cost. True tanks.


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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
bat702 wrote:
I think one thing that might help tanks survive, is if they can launch their smoke launchers when targeted, but without needing a stratagem. Also the whole I can't shoot this phase now is harsh, they should just get -1 to hit.


I have probably blown over a dozen CP on landraider's smoke launchers and I can assure you -1 to hit doesn't do gak to help it survive

Really? Helps mine. Guns tend to do less damage when they don't hit.


Then you might be quite lucky. The -1 to hit doesn't make guns "not hit", it just has a chance to do so, usually in a single turn, against a few weapons with very few shots. The average amount of damage prevented does not reflect what it actually does, which is quite likely to be absolutely nothing. Assuming six BS3+ anti-tank weapons hit your LR, the chance of the smoke changing anything about that is the same as not rolling a single three with six dice, which is 33.49%. So one in three times you just wasted your CP, and this doesn't even account for rolls where despite preventing one or two hits, the remaining ones still roll enough damage to destroy it.

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 Jidmah wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
bat702 wrote:
I think one thing that might help tanks survive, is if they can launch their smoke launchers when targeted, but without needing a stratagem. Also the whole I can't shoot this phase now is harsh, they should just get -1 to hit.


I have probably blown over a dozen CP on landraider's smoke launchers and I can assure you -1 to hit doesn't do gak to help it survive

Really? Helps mine. Guns tend to do less damage when they don't hit.


Then you might be quite lucky. The -1 to hit doesn't make guns "not hit", it just has a chance to do so, usually in a single turn, against a few weapons with very few shots. The average amount of damage prevented does not reflect what it actually does, which is quite likely to be absolutely nothing. Assuming six BS3+ anti-tank weapons hit your LR, the chance of the smoke changing anything about that is the same as not rolling a single three with six dice, which is 33.49%. So one in three times you just wasted your CP, and this doesn't even account for rolls where despite preventing one or two hits, the remaining ones still roll enough damage to destroy it.

Well yeah, it's a dice game. Luck is always a factor. I'm "lucky" whenever I pass the tank's 5++ too, doesn't mean it doesn't help. And tanks need all the help they can get right now.
   
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The problem with the 6's always do damage is that the d6 system is inherently biased towards the attacker. To make it really effective we need to move to a D10 system. A 1-6 chance is no where near the probability that should result from a hapless human firing their las pistol at a charging Land Raider, and hitting a critical system. Neither is a 1-10 for that matter, but it's worlds better.
   
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There's no way I'm rolling 20 d10. That'd be horrible to try and read. 40 for a squad of Warriors, pfft madness.

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 Blndmage wrote:
There's no way I'm rolling 20 d10. That'd be horrible to try and read. 40 for a squad of Warriors, pfft madness.


It can't be any worse than the completely stupid dice designs that GW puts on their faction designs.
   
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As I posted earlier:

Blanket -1 damage to prevent high-RoF chip damage weapons from being effective.

+1 T (bar raiders who already got that bump) to give a general improvement in survivability - most Tanks would then only be getting wounded on 6's from S4 weapons (the commonest basic Strength score for most troops).

+1w per 5 wounds or part thereof - +2w for current 6-10 wound vehicles, +3w for 11-15, etc.

Shift the wound break point for obscuring terrain to 22w (so no vehicles get caught by it that weren't already)

Shift degrading profiles up to 12w (for the same reason as above).
   
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And that's how you get a T9 W22 Damage -2 Mortarion, which would be even more insane.
   
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The best simple idea I can come up with is +1 Armor Save for vehicles if the Strength of the weapon is lower than the vehicles Toughness. No impact on true anti-tank weapons but pulls down damage for High AP anti-personnel weapons.

As for any too good AT weapons, that is what points are for.
   
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Alternatively we can use 1+ Save value for vehicles only and remove the caveat that 1 always fail. With some small adjustment if needed to ensure that Terminator in cover can be brought down by massed fire.

Essentially move the focus for anti-tank from nowhere (as it is now) to a specific stat. To Hit doesn't make sense. To Wound would have been the best, but that ships seems to be sailed. Damage can work, but then the same weapon will pop both a tank and a Demon.
What's left are Saves, and would be very beneficial if all Invulnerable would be removed from tank and use properly.

A 1+ Land Raider would save a Meltas at 5+. Semmes fine.

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Perhaps there should be a rule that a model cannot take more than one wound per turn from weapons that are half the strength of its toughness? That would still let units chip out an already badly damaged vehicle, but in no way shape or form being taken out by the likes of massed lasguns or somesuch, and make it that you'd want to aim the AT weapons at stuff rather than waste shots altogether for 1 wound.

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I think in this instance, Morty being a T8 monster, should suffer from AT fire.
   
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 alextroy wrote:
The best simple idea I can come up with is +1 Armor Save for vehicles if the Strength of the weapon is lower than the vehicles Toughness. No impact on true anti-tank weapons but pulls down damage for High AP anti-personnel weapons.


Simple and clean I like that one a lot. Another option could be if the weapon's strength is lower than the Vehicle/Monster's toughness then they have a -1 to Wound rolls.
Although I worry that rule would be too harsh on Necron weaponry.
   
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I don't know why there is so much worry on this thread about S4 D1 weapons, regardless of AP against vehicles. Other than finishing off the last wound or two, how many vehicles has anyone lost to bolter fire? Those weapons, even ones like my TS inferno bolters with AP-2 are not the reason why the standard tank (like a predator) is suffering so much in the meta. It is the higher strength D2/D3 weapons and the D3+3 that are the problem. First, I think the D3+3 damage has proven itself to be just too damn good. Yes an AT gun rolling a D6 and getting a one sucks, but this is the pendulum totally the other way. All the D3+3 damage should be reduced to D6 minimum 3 damage. I think that would really help mitigate some of the horrendous AT firepower you are seeing from some lists that make vehicles so worthless. Melta is another problem, but Melta was terrible with one shot, and is super deadly with two shots, so maybe just a price increase to those weapons (or put is back to half range is D6 x 2 pick the highest).

As for the multi-shot higher strength D2/D3 weapons I think it is just a game mechanic in the core rules that will favor these weapons. Unless every take gets the reduce damage by -1, which I think would be to much, the only real way I can see effecting these weapons is improving the save. All true tanks should really have a 2+ save and a few more wounds. That is probably the best way to make them better. This is just my opinion.
   
 
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