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Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

DaRealJDB wrote:Y'all can see the forest but for the trees. This is power creep, plain and simple.
Is it power creep when all the new codexes are being set a what appears to be a balanced higher defense level?

   
Made in us
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 alextroy wrote:
DaRealJDB wrote:Y'all can see the forest but for the trees. This is power creep, plain and simple.
Is it power creep when all the new codexes are being set a what appears to be a balanced higher defense level?



Pretty much. All the new Codexes are being set to a new higher defense level now, but once the next SM book 2 or 7e Craftworlds or 5e Grey Knights comes along and pushes beyond the line again they'll all be obsolete and GW will have to scramble to buff everyone else to keep up again. The Codex release model (where you have to update everything else before you can go back and fix the thing you broke) makes power creep pretty inevitable and unfixable.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





Orks with T5 are an abomination. Glad I will never have to deal with those rules anymore.
   
Made in us
Martial Arts Fiday






Nashville, TN

 alextroy wrote:
DaRealJDB wrote:Y'all can see the forest but for the trees. This is power creep, plain and simple.
Is it power creep when all the new codexes are being set a what appears to be a balanced higher defense level?



::laughs in 30 years of GW experience::

"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"

-Nobody Ever

Proverbs 18:2

"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.

 warboss wrote:

GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up.


Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.

EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.

Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! 
   
Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior




I can not understand how people can honestly think that T5 Boyz is somehow going to break the game. It is a 16% reduction in wounds against S4, S5 and S8 weapons. Yes, I understand that is a LOT of weapons in the game but honestly is killing one less ork out of every three? So a 10 man marine squad kills roughly 4-5 rather than 7 orks? Is that really something that is going to break the game and ruin all of ours games?

Right now hordes are utterly terrible in 9th until you hit 120+ models at which case they are still awful it is just a fact that most opponents wont be able to kill them all. T5 boyz is NOT going to break the game, hell Nobz point for point currently are probably better than 8 point T5 boyz and are you afraid of Nobz? Nobz right now have a 4+ with 2 wounds for the points of two boyz. That 4+ save means they actually might get to make an armor save once in awhile which is in itself exponentially better than boyz.
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

Personally I think feel no pain could've also worked but I'm the lucky person that plays dark eldar (have since 7th which was unlucky then) and poisoned weaponry and shredders don't tend to care about t5. Our melee might care but if you're fighting an ork in melee then you're likely fighting them wrong. Ofc the game has changed a lot so I guess we'll see.

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Made in pl
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 alextroy wrote:
DaRealJDB wrote:Y'all can see the forest but for the trees. This is power creep, plain and simple.
Is it power creep when all the new codexes are being set a what appears to be a balanced higher defense level?


Go tell that to Deathwatch players, whose armies got weaker comparing to what they had in 8th.


So a 10 man marine squad kills roughly 4-5 rather than 7 orks?

I don't think that many marines players, aside for GK, actually run 10 man squads. So it like saying it is all okey, if the marine player uses 9 hvy bolter attack bikes and 3 units of devastators with heavy bolters. Any buff to cheap units is always substential, or at least that is what 8th tought me , with how cultists were out classing marines for chaos.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in ca
Charing Cold One Knight





Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I can not understand how people can honestly think that T5 Boyz is somehow going to break the game. It is a 16% reduction in wounds against S4, S5 and S8 weapons. Yes, I understand that is a LOT of weapons in the game but honestly is killing one less ork out of every three? So a 10 man marine squad kills roughly 4-5 rather than 7 orks? Is that really something that is going to break the game and ruin all of ours games?


People tend to put in a lot of emotions into keeping the past even if that past is outdated. The thing is, if T5 is an abomination/worst thing to ever happen then literally everything in 8th and 9th is an abomination. The proliferation of extra AP, the extra wound on marines, and so on. Some of it feels like Marine Entitlement in wanting their movie marines and the ability to mow everyone down, but even then I think a lot of people with un-updated armies do not realize that their armies will most likely see changes to extra AP; Toughness, Saves, and whatnot. I mean, Wyches can get to Str 5, have an extra AP and gazillion attacks in the current edition and will have little problem taking down a large group of orks even with T5.

In the end I think people just need to stop thinking of certain factions as "NPC Factions" and instead of factions that people play and enjoy and are there not solely for the benefits of the "Hero faction" players.

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Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 vipoid wrote:
I just find myself wondering whether we're heading in the right direction.


Me too. Orks getting T5 is a consequence of units getting bonus to AP, damage and standard weapons with lots of shots. A shooting phase in 3rd or 5th involved half or a third of the current dice that we need. That's why boyz with T5 will die as fast as older T4 boyz. Marines with 2W would have broken the game in earlier edition, while termies with 3W would have been flat out unkillable. A lower volume of dice rolled is the main thing I miss from older editions, other than the chance of customizing the characters.

A twin linked assault cannon had 4 shots with re-rolls 10 years ago and penalties for movement, now it's 12 shots with a bonus on the AP in turn 1 and now penalty ever. A unit like aggressors with their 18 (?) shots each against an horde, plus power fists and a tough profile, would have been considered outrageous 10 years ago, now SM players consider them unplayable because they think they need twice the shots to be worthy. Yes, this is definitely the wrong direction but the ship has already sailed.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/19 08:44:38



 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





I wouldn't say that it is the wrong direction.
It is a different one.

Previously the game tried to squeeze everything within the same defensive profiles, and as we all know, it mostly failed.

MEQs were mostly unplayable, same for terminators. No matter how high the armor, as long as all infantries had a single wound, killing them by a thousand cuts was too easy.

This is why now we have a damage/wound system. It helps differentiate between infantry, elite infantry, heavy infantry, walker, vehicle.

IMO, it is a step in the right direction, but I respect other opinions.
   
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Italy

Spoletta wrote:
I wouldn't say that it is the wrong direction.
It is a different one.

Previously the game tried to squeeze everything within the same defensive profiles, and as we all know, it mostly failed.

MEQs were mostly unplayable, same for terminators. No matter how high the armor, as long as all infantries had a single wound, killing them by a thousand cuts was too easy.

This is why now we have a damage/wound system. It helps differentiate between infantry, elite infantry, heavy infantry, walker, vehicle.

IMO, it is a step in the right direction, but I respect other opinions.


Yes, it's definitely a different one and the concepts of right and wrong are entirely subjective.

What I don't like is the massive dice rolling. Single dudes with 10+ shots and vehicles with 20+ shots, easy access to re-rolls and double tap abilities. If dice rolling was dramatically reduced, lethality would also be reduced and the game would be better IMHO, that's what I mean. But overall I think the current state of 40k is actually great, don't get me wrong.


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

You could remove all bonus to wound and to hit and all rerolls in the game and the game would become much better. Just with that little change.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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The dark behind the eyes.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I can not understand how people can honestly think that T5 Boyz is somehow going to break the game.


I don't think anyone is actually arguing that.

The concerns people are raising is that raising Orks to T5 means that, from a lore perspective, a lot of things start to fall out of alignment.

Whether or not it ends up being balanced, bolters wounding Orks on 5s feels wrong. Flamers wounding Orks on 5s feels wrong.

I suppose you could start raising the strength of weapons to compensate but then pretty soon we'll end up right back where we started and people will start saying that Orks need to be T6 or something.

And just to be clear, I also didn't like DE getting better armour saves because it's the opposite of what their defence should be. I was also opposed to Marines getting +1W across the board, albeit more from a game perspective. Because however much Marine players want them to be 'elite', the sheer volume of Marine armies and Marine players means that they are de facto the standard troops in the game. So far from making Marines feel more elite, the game just ended up making T4 W2 the basic standard for the game's infantry and so the standard of what even basic weapons need to be able to deal with (hence why so many weapons ended up getting extra damage or such to compensate).

I am also highly doubtful that the game will ever reached the promised state where everything is balanced to everything else. I think all we'll end up doing is leapfrogging defence and offence, with many factions, units and/or weapons inevitably being left behind.

And just to reiterate, this is not solely because of Orks moving to T5. If anything, I (and perhaps many others) just see that as being a symptom of a wider issue.


 Blackie wrote:

Me too. Orks getting T5 is a consequence of units getting bonus to AP, damage and standard weapons with lots of shots. A shooting phase in 3rd or 5th involved half or a third of the current dice that we need. That's why boyz with T5 will die as fast as older T4 boyz. Marines with 2W would have broken the game in earlier edition, while termies with 3W would have been flat out unkillable. A lower volume of dice rolled is the main thing I miss from older editions, other than the chance of customizing the characters.

A twin linked assault cannon had 4 shots with re-rolls 10 years ago and penalties for movement, now it's 12 shots with a bonus on the AP in turn 1 and now penalty ever. A unit like aggressors with their 18 (?) shots each against an horde, plus power fists and a tough profile, would have been considered outrageous 10 years ago, now SM players consider them unplayable because they think they need twice the shots to be worthy. Yes, this is definitely the wrong direction but the ship has already sailed.


Yeah, I think it's one of those situations where it's a lot harder to go backwards than forwards.


 Galas wrote:
You could remove all bonus to wound and to hit and all rerolls in the game and the game would become much better. Just with that little change.


I've long been a proponent of removing most or all auras from the game. IMO HQs should be tied to Command Points and stratagems, not to random aura bonuses.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/19 11:41:30


 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Karol wrote:

I don't think that many marines players, aside for GK, actually run 10 man squads. So it like saying it is all okey, if the marine player uses 9 hvy bolter attack bikes and 3 units of devastators with heavy bolters. Any buff to cheap units is always substential, or at least that is what 8th tought me , with how cultists were out classing marines for chaos.


Just for fun, 9 attack bikes and 3 dev squads is 63 heavy bolter shots, 42 hits, 21 wounds against orkz and 21 dead Orkz because no armor save. Against Space Marines thats 42 hits, 28 wounds, and 14 failed saves for 14 dead Marines because D2.

On the flipside of that, if you instead of going to heavy weapons just went with Bolters, for about the same price as 9 attack bikes and 3 dev squads you took 18 aggressors you would end up with 216 S4 shots for 144 hits, 48 wounds and 40 dead Orkz. Against those pesky 2W Marines its 144 hits 96 wounds and 32 dmg for 16 dead Marines. (Marines would be even less assuming they didn't max squad size to 10 )

And that right there is the problem. Instead of going towards a better solution on how to deal with ork boyz your brain immediately went towards a gun that is better at killing ork boyz than you are currently using, but that is still better at killing Marines. The solution to killing ork boyz doesn't require AP or D2, but you are paying for both in a heavy bolter than you basically either don't need (D2)or does very little (-1AP)

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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New Zealand

I wonder if marines should have been Toughness 5 and orks 2 Wounds. If that would have made more sense.
   
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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Tygre wrote:
I wonder if marines should have been Toughness 5 and orks 2 Wounds. If that would have made more sense.


Not really. The fluff is full of instances where a single well-aimed lasgun shot fells an ork.

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Orks are not a melee army
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Agreed T5 1W Orks makes more sense than T4 2W Orks. Fluff wise both T5 and FNP can fill the role of them ignoring pain and the damage from small arms fire while charging through it.
   
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Dont worry. 10th ed will fix everything.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/19 16:05:48


 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





I hope that 10th does not come at all.
I really don't feel the need for a new edition, the game is working very well.

Too bad that we will still have the typical cycle of RandomNarrativeCampaignWhichBreaksEverything followed by a new edition.
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




Newcastle

I like the idea of basic infantry getting buffed against vehicles, monsters and powerful characters. It's such an investment in time and money to paint big infantry units and feels bad when they are little more than chaff. As a slow painter it's a bit of a kick in the teeth working for many hours on a unit of 12 termagants for them to cost as little as 48 points (prev editions). I hope gaunts get some kind of buff in line with T5 orks

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Tygre wrote:
I wonder if marines should have been Toughness 5 and orks 2 Wounds. If that would have made more sense.


I'll make a deal with Space Marine players, when we play against one another, i'll give you T5 and you give me 2W. You can also take the 33% increase in price since 4th edition and i'll settle for your 20% increase in price. So your T5 1W 3+ save Marines will be 20ppm and my T4 2W 6+ save orkz will be 7ppm.

I mean, some of these guys seem to think T5 is way more valuable than a 2nd wound, double shots at max range, double attacks on first round of combat, AP on your standard weapons depending on turn etc.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in gb
Perfect Shot Black Templar Predator Pilot






 Grimskul wrote:
I wouldn't say it breaks the setting at all, because while bolters are definitely more effective than lasguns against Orks, there's been stories of Orks surviving bolter rounds before (that's actually how Ghazghkull's story starts since he goes in to see Mad Dok Grotsnik since part of his skull got blown off) and frankly the game does not equal the fluff. You have to abstract a lot of stuff when you're making a game and what can actually be translated over from the fluff into what works into it. You could easily just as much argue how a grot in CC can cause a wound on a Baneblade. Realistically, SM would be more outnumbered than they are now in a lot of fights in game. Guys like the Silent King would never take to the field in some small skirmish, etc.



Orks being able to tank a bolter round 50% of the time I feel represents their superior toughness adequately, while still leaving a clear difference between lasguns and bolters. I would generally agree that fluff doesn't map onto rules perfectly, but I think it's one symptom of a wider problem of the game becoming a more abstracted system, more similar to MtG or LoL. Why this doesn't work is exemplified quite nicely by your example of grots being able to wound Baneblades - in a better system not focussed on tournament play and watering down the game to make it more accessible this would not, and indeed at one point did not, take place. As for big names on small boards, I always put that down to the fact that the game being played with those big names is just part of a wider battle that is raging all around, rather than a simple skirmish in its own right necessarily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Matt Swain wrote:
I have to say i'm against t5 orks as i think they just kind of break the setting, especially in relations to space marines.

marines were made to fight things the imperial guard had problems with. The IG likely, especially early on, fought rebellious humans, so a S3 weapon against targets that are mostly T3 was ok. orks were T4 making them tough for IG to bring down, but Marines had S4 weapons that were effective vs orks.

Now making orks t5 makes a standard bolter relatively ineffective against them. I assume the bolter was designed to be effective against some of the targets marines would be firing on mostly, and orks are definitely on that list. But if orks go t5 it means the bolter was relatively ineffective against them from the get go, which makes the bolter less of an impressive weapon. I'd assume a marines primary weapon would be made to have at least half a chance of wounding an ork, one of their main opponents.

it just doesn't seem right to make a marines main weapon relatively ineffective against one of their main opponents. Linda breaks immersion a bit.

Plus orks will have to be expensive in points now, and orks have traditionally been a green tide army that often wins thru sheer numbers. Boosting their costs to a fair level will really cut down on the size of ork armies. I'd prefer to howling green tide ork army, seems more orky to me.

lastly it makes orks tougher than marines. I really just don't like it, not as a marine player and certainly not as a closet matt ward. Orks should be tougher than a human, yes, tougher, bigger, etc, But a marine is meant to be a human that's been genetically, biologically and surgically modified to be tougher than human too. Putting them on par with orks showed how hard it was to make a human tough as an ork. A human has 19 implants, years of surgery, a carapace, fused ribs, larraman cells, etc to be t4, an ork just pops out of the ground and is t5 now?

i just think it kinda of ruins immersion. IG mostly fight heretics, rebels, etc, and being on par with them is ok. Marines fighter tougher stuff, they should be on par or better than what they fight because they were designed by the freakin' emperor to be at least on par with them.

T5 orks just seem to break the setting. But hey, as a necron i can at least be on par with them since my troops can now take S5 weapons routinely...





I agree with all this, and would like to add that this is a sign of a problem in many ways, in so far as it's seemingly been forgotten that the marine is the baseline profile that all other adjustments should be made against, and not seemingly the guardsman, as GW have elected apparently, hence 2W marines and now this.

The old 1W T4 marine in fluff should be the baseline - while they are exeptional compared to humans, they are just about suitable for fighting the regenerating fungus beasts, 7ft lighting quick killer elves and two metre long gaunts that plague the setting. The battles fought on the tabletop in many ways always represent the extremes of combat in the 41st millenium in many ways, rather than what most of the fighting is, which would realistically be humans vs humans.

By choosing the guardsman as the point of comparison, explicitly, or in this case judging by GW's promotional articles when they rolled out 2W marines or T5 orks, suddenly everything is powerful, and power creep is justified, which is what we have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Remember, a model removed as a casualty doesn’t represent an actual kill.

It can be a warrior too badly injured to carry on, or simply knocked out.

T5 represents that for Orks, they may not be hard to inflict physical injury on, but bloody difficult to cripple. Clip most other beings with a Bolt round, and you’re doing enough damage to send them into shock. Orks, not so much.


A 50/50 chance represents this more than enough don't you think? Certainly a bolter is much more likely to put down an ork than a lasgun, and this is not remotely reflected in this new rules change


Automatically Appended Next Post:
scarletsquig wrote:
If we're looking at immersion-breaking core troops, Eldar Guardians win the prize.

In lore, they're talented centuries-old civilians of a dying race that can't afford to lose any more numbers.

On the table, they're disposable chaff to be boltered to shreds by the dozen.

At least Orks are depicted as being tough in the background, that's something that has been pretty consistent all along.

Stat variety is good and something that previous editions just haven't done, largely sticking firmly to the stats laid down in 3rd (and sometimes 2nd) edition. One of the things that 9th is getting right so far.


Honestly Eldar have been done dirty throughout. On the tabletop they're slightly faster humans (not really anymore since they got rid of Initiative and Fleet), when they should be not as tough as a marine but as skilled if not more so. Certainly Aspect warriors should perhaps be WS 2+ and BS 2+, and Exarchs should be mini characters in their own right, maybe even have them be buffing characters with a bit of combat specialism related to their Aspect in the Elites slot (I personally believe that with things like command squads being split up into their consituent parts GW should just introduce a new FOC section, called something like 'Specialists' - this could basically encompass everything from Commissars to Apothecaries and so on).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ulthanashville wrote:
GW has mentioned that they want to tone down horde armies and speed up the game. I can see them cutting max boyz squad sizes by 5 or 10 models to balance out this change. This to me seems like a fair trade.

There’s also an element of entitled whining from space marines players regarding this change. So you’ll have to actually suck something up for a change in the midst of your faction-wide upgrade to primaris. What proportion of ork armies have made the top of tournments in the last 5 years? 10? 15 even?

Let the green guys have a moment in the sun for once.

For Drukhari with their poisoned weapons and bugs with toxin sacs, the game remains effectively unchanged.

Tau are still the kings of shooty and the orks have to reach them first. Hey, kroot may actually see use as bubble wrapping.

Guard (and to an extent sisters) have all of the blast and flamer weapons they could want to counter this.

Necrons, Eldar, Ad Mech etc have enough toys to weather the storm.

It’s not such a game-breaking disaster.


Don't see the need to call marine players entitled, especially when many like myself also collect orks, and other armies too. My main gripe with what you've said is the mentality that everything needs its 'time in the sun', which is a whole hearted endorsement of power creep, as this can only be achieved by constant buffs.Rather than resetting the game to a more reasonable level, we end up with this crescendo of FOTM and codex creep, which is barely tempered if at all by FAQs and minor nerfs. In two additions we'll be seeing 3W guardsmen or something foolish at this rate.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/06/22 00:23:01


 
   
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 Banzaimash wrote:

A 50/50 chance represents this more than enough don't you think? Certainly a bolter is much more likely to put down an ork than a lasgun, and this is not remotely reflected in this new rules change


To put it bluntly? No. In 4th edition a Marine had 1 shot from his boltgun at 24' range and 2 shots at 12' but only if he stood still that turn. That Marine was 2.5x more expensive than the Ork boy and 300% more durable vs S4 incoming fire. In 9th edition taht Marine has 2 shots from 24 if he stands still and 2 shots from 12 no matter what, he also gets AP on his boltgun depending on what turn it is. That Marine is now only 2.25x More expensive than the Ork boy and is now more than 500% more durable to incoming S4 fire.

So when you say an Ork boy being able to tank a bolter half the time should be enough, well no. Why? Because GW has decided that Space Marines needed ridiculous levels of buffs so that anyone who wants any hope of competing against them requires buffs to compensate. Now if your argument is purely from a fluff perspective than absolutely. But if we are going to play that game than my Ork boyz should be fielded in mobz of 100 and should cost 1ppm each. I have a sneaking suspicion that players don't actually want a fluffy representation of the battlefield otherwise the board would be flooded turn 1 LOL.

As far as the Boltguns should be better at killing Orkz than Lasguns, sure. But let me ask you this, Shouldn't an Auto-cannon be better at killing T8 Vehicles than a Heavy Bolter? I can make a hundred similar comparisons in regards to weapons that aren't accurately represented on the battlefield. That has nothing to do with inherent imbalance and more to do with the Toughness/Weapon strength charts we use in the game right now.

 Banzaimash wrote:
Don't see the need to call marine players entitled, especially when many like myself also collect orks, and other armies too. My main gripe with what you've said is the mentality that everything needs its 'time in the sun', which is a whole hearted endorsement of power creep, as this can only be achieved by constant buffs.Rather than resetting the game to a more reasonable level, we end up with this crescendo of FOTM and codex creep, which is barely tempered if at all by FAQs and minor nerfs. In two additions we'll be seeing 3W guardsmen or something foolish at this rate.


Well the problem here Banzai is that there are a couple of Marine players on these boards who constantly complain every single time any other faction gets any kind of buffs...actually they complain if any color of Marine that isn't their color gets a buff. And when they have an obviously broken unit, they label any criticism of said unit as players just hating on Marines because they hate Marines or some such nonsense. I have literally witnessed players defending Pre-nerf Aggressors and the new Melta weapons as well as eradicators.

In regards to "resetting the game"...I wouldn't wish that on anyone. If GW really wants to reset the power balance to a lower level than they need to pull out hte stops and do actual hardcore playtesting and only release the new rules as Index 10th edition. In 7th they tried to "tone down" the power creep by giving Orkz the absolute worst codex in 7th edition, it was so bad that by the end of 7th edition a host of Ork players had given up playing because they stood no chance. Jidmah, among many others did this if I am not mistaken.

You can't start an edition and than randomly lower the power level for factions without lowering it for all. Hell, in 7th edition I had players offer me 200-400pt handicaps because they wanted to play their faction without purposefully taking the worst units they had .

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






I don't know where some of these numbers go but "a bolter should wound an ork 50% of the time" really depends on the book, but plenty of fluff examples would not have that be the case. I need to look up the story, but I was randomly listening to horus heresy audio books while playing (i think it was the roboute guilliman lord of ultrimar primarch mini series). They are on a planet with only a few habitable zones and orks have taken over, they go to take it back and whole squads are overun by orks and they note the only guarunteed way to put down an ork is to get a headshot and that even delimbed they are still a capable threat.

Also of note its not like GW turned a bolter into S3, it is still taking out eldar, guard, other marines, lower demons, tau (includign crisis suits) sisters, tyranid gaunts/warriors (who should also be T5 but that is another discussion), and genesteeler cults. they are just making one more army where the baseline troops are tough enough to not be put down from both (other being custodes, and i get that custodes are the super special among super special created by the Emperor, but orks were made by the old ones so .. yea gonna put them as at least on par there)

All that said this is a problem of the D6 system as noted before. i would love to see more varience but then we would need more things like individual dice for weapons or somethign like that. if it were a D10 system as an example and we could gradient it out sure we could have the conversation about a middle ground, but game balance wise currently ork boys get removed by the shovelful and the only way to make them work is goffs+ghaz+painbody+kff+wierdboy+skarboyz and if your units take that much buffing to be good there is probably a game mechanic or unit problem. Personally i hope again our units are less reliant on hero hammer and we can get some ork units actually functioning independently other than buggie spam. (i like my buggies don't get me wrong but it feel weird to take minimum squad buys now for troops since they are kind of useless)




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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 G00fySmiley wrote:
I don't know where some of these numbers go but "a bolter should wound an ork 50% of the time" really depends on the book, but plenty of fluff examples would not have that be the case. I need to look up the story, but I was randomly listening to horus heresy audio books while playing (i think it was the roboute guilliman lord of ultrimar primarch mini series). They are on a planet with only a few habitable zones and orks have taken over, they go to take it back and whole squads are overun by orks and they note the only guarunteed way to put down an ork is to get a headshot and that even delimbed they are still a capable threat.


Thrakka himself was a regular ork boy when he took a bolter round to the head and still managed to kill his opponent, walk off the battlefield and stumble into Grotznik's tent.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

TBH with the old to wound table agaisnt T5 orks lasguns would need a 6 and boltguns a 5+ so they would still be better from a fluff perspective.

Why are changes in the to wound chart fine but not to statlines?

Orks going to T5 is no different than inmortals going to T5 or 23025309 changes that 40k has seen to statlines across editions. There are no sacred cows. There should not be, thats horrible game design.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 G00fySmiley wrote:
All that said this is a problem of the D6 system as noted before. i would love to see more varience but then we would need more things like individual dice for weapons or somethign like that. if it were a D10 system as an example and we could gradient it out sure we could have the conversation about a middle ground, but game balance wise currently ork boys get removed by the shovelful and the only way to make them work is goffs+ghaz+painbody+kff+wierdboy+skarboyz and if your units take that much buffing to be good there is probably a game mechanic or unit problem. Personally i hope again our units are less reliant on hero hammer and we can get some ork units actually functioning independently other than buggie spam. (i like my buggies don't get me wrong but it feel weird to take minimum squad buys now for troops since they are kind of useless)


40k isn't rolling a d6, but four of them, each interacting with the target in a different way. There are plenty of wheels and screws to turn between to hit, S/T, AP/armor/invuls, damage/wounds/FNP and a bunch of modifiers for all of those. It's just that people are freaking out because they have started to turn one of the wheels which has been gathering rust for almost three decades.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/22 12:54:25


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 Jidmah wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
All that said this is a problem of the D6 system as noted before. i would love to see more varience but then we would need more things like individual dice for weapons or somethign like that. if it were a D10 system as an example and we could gradient it out sure we could have the conversation about a middle ground, but game balance wise currently ork boys get removed by the shovelful and the only way to make them work is goffs+ghaz+painbody+kff+wierdboy+skarboyz and if your units take that much buffing to be good there is probably a game mechanic or unit problem. Personally i hope again our units are less reliant on hero hammer and we can get some ork units actually functioning independently other than buggie spam. (i like my buggies don't get me wrong but it feel weird to take minimum squad buys now for troops since they are kind of useless)


40k isn't rolling a d6, but four of them, each interacting with the target in a different way. There are plenty of wheels and screws to turn between to hit, S/T, AP/armor/invuls, damage/wounds/FNP and a bunch of modifiers for all of those. It's just that people are freaking out because they have started to turn one of the wheels which has been gathering rust for almost three decades.


that is a fair point as yea there ate multiple d6 rolls, i more meant within each stat. I understand why they don't with 40k as there are way more models but i have played a few skirmish games where things like one model might hit on a 4+ on a D6 (do 66% of the time) vs another who might hit on a 6+ on a D10 to represent a 50% chance to hit. Admittedly easier to do when there are 5-10 models on a board.

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The dark behind the eyes.

SemperMortis wrote:

To put it bluntly? No. In 4th edition a Marine had 1 shot from his boltgun at 24' range and 2 shots at 12' but only if he stood still that turn. That Marine was 2.5x more expensive than the Ork boy and 300% more durable vs S4 incoming fire. In 9th edition taht Marine has 2 shots from 24 if he stands still and 2 shots from 12 no matter what, he also gets AP on his boltgun depending on what turn it is. That Marine is now only 2.25x More expensive than the Ork boy and is now more than 500% more durable to incoming S4 fire.


To be fair, I think buffing Marines in this manner was also a big mistake.

Not least because there's a severe and unresolvable disconnect between what Marines are supposed to be and what they actually are.

In the fluff, Marines are super-soldiers. They're elite, well-armoured warriors who (at least by the standards of the Imperium) are each a one-man-army.

The problem is not (and was never) that this could not not represented in the rules. The problem was that it shouldn't be represented in the rules.

The reason is that in the fluff Marines are incredibly scarce. In the majority of encounters, you can expect Marines to never even turn up. Instead, the guard will have to try and handle things on their own (with maybe some Scions or Admech support if they're very lucky). IOW, the guard are - by far - the baseline troops of the Imperium and the Marines are very rare, very elite units.

Now look at what you actually see on the table. Marines, Marines, Marines, Marines, Marines. Blue Marines, Green Marines, Dark Green Marines, Vampire Marines, Furry Marines, Silver Marines, etc.. Even if were *exceedingly* generous and count IG and MT as separate armies, they're still outnumbered 6:1 by Marines. There are more flavours of Marines than exist actual Xeno armies.

The reason this matters is that, regardless of the fluff, Marines are the baseline infantry in 40k. They are the standard against which all other infantry and weapons are measured. So when you buff them to super-elite levels, you don't actually end up making them elite. You instead make a new baseline standard for infantry in 40k (and for the weapons needed to deal with such).

This is why Marines should have stayed as they were. Because they are victims of their own popularity and ubiquity. If Marines are to be super-elite because its "fluffy", then one shouldn't neglect another key aspect of their fluff - i.e. their scarcity within the setting.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Vipoid, ive been saying that for years. The problem is you have a host of Marine defenders who can't get this through their heads. In their opinion the only way Marines can be adequately represented on the battlefield is if they are so ridiculously over powered that anyone with a modicum of skill will just pilot them to easy 5 and 0 results at majors and GTs.

You had Aggressors capable of putting out 24 shots a turn each and people defended that as not broken. You had girlyman gunlines and the lot and people defended that as not broken, you had the damn eradicators come out and people defended that as not broken.

Why? Because as you pointed out, Marines are the default setting in this game and therefore everyone builds lists to fight against Marines. Last I checked, my Smasha Mek gunz weren't all that good at killing Nidz or Tau firewarriors, but they are damn good at killing Marines Same for my Rokkitz. Why do I take them? Because in a 5 game tournament I know I have a very good chance of facing at a minimum of 1 Marine list.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
 
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