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Made in us
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On the Internet

 Grimtuff wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:


I'm inclined to believe it's real, because it's a weird thing to fake if you're looking generate outrage.


For those who want the opinions of an actual lawyer on this:




Very interesting watch, cheers!

So, the above YT guy shows the Reddit thread where it originated from. It came from Trent from Miscast. Trent is not the kind of guy that would make stuff up like this. He is an artist through and through and not the person that strikes me as someone with an axe to grind against GW. All of that points to genuine to me.

Maybe someone reached out to him in an attempt to scam him by pretending to be GW?
   
Made in it
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 ClockworkZion wrote:

Maybe someone reached out to him in an attempt to scam him by pretending to be GW?


Doubtful.

Here is the original thread he posted to Reddit. Either someone has told multiple small to medium channels and all of them have been duped, or Occam's razor says it's real.

There are multiple YouTubers in that thread like Goobertown and Midwinter Minis corroborating the info. I'm leaning towards legit.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
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Been Around the Block




I can't even imagine the amount of mental gymnastics we are about to witness now that evidence is clear it is real, AND even a video with clear legal analysis.

I did not anticipate this level of entertainment for the weekend.
   
Made in gb
Hard-Wired Sentinel Pilot





 Grimtuff wrote:


Doubtful.

Here is the original thread he posted to Reddit. Either someone has told multiple small to medium channels and all of them have been duped, or Occam's razor says it's real.

There are multiple YouTubers in that thread like Goobertown and Midwinter Minis corroborating the info. I'm leaning towards legit.


Hmm. I think stating MM is 'corroborating' the info is rather misleading. He states quite clearly: 'Fortunately, the document I signed was not as insidious as this.'

That seems more like the opposite of corroboration. He says the NDA he was under was not this one.

I don't have a dog in this fight whatsoever. It could be real, it could be a fake. But I don't think we're at the point quite yet (based on what I've seen), to assume, or worse, state factually, that it is one or the other.

I have to say, I'm a bit disappointed to see some people leaping to a final conclusion and arguing somewhat viciously with others from that point. We're possessed of better critical thinking ability than that aren't we?

It's a discussion worthy subject, especially the implications if true. But reaching a conclusion before we know for certain this isn't a hoax isn't very rational.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
caladancid wrote:
I can't even imagine the amount of mental gymnastics we are about to witness now that evidence is clear it is real, AND even a video with clear legal analysis.

I did not anticipate this level of entertainment for the weekend.


I'm missing where it's clear that this is real. Can you show me where this has been shown? I'm sincerely not asking as a challenge or to be a dick - I genuinely want to know if this is the case. I haven't seen as much personally.

The video with the clear legal analysis is the one mentioned above? I found it interesting, but I'd feel better if we had one by a UK based law practitioner. UK and US law aren't the same, and the guy in that video prefixed his own content with that statement.
I work in software, and fairly high level IT, but put me in front of a Mac, and much of that 'expertise' vanishes. I make mistakes and find gaps in my knowledge even in the area where I'm employed from time to time. I can't imagine law is much different - experts can be wrong. Does this guy practice much in the area of corporate law, or some other space that would be dealing with NDA's and contracts often? (That may be irrelevant - I'm not an expert, but then I suspect that's the same for most who are commenting and claiming to 'know').

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/09/24 23:03:17


 
   
Made in gb
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United Kingdom

From the Reddit thread:

Khullain Paints! wrote:I have a friend who works as a patent lawyer for Microsoft. Asked him his advice on this NDA (which we don’t even know is real). And he seemed to think that other than being poorly written and a tad one sided it was a very standard NDA and far more lenient than most he deals with


(Twitter link)
   
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BrianDavion wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Lord Kragan wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
So yet another thing that seems to be getting taken out of context or misconstrued in order to try and make GW look bad regardless of the facts? Seems like pretty standard stuff - you enter into a deal with a company, of course you shouldn't then be trying to take away their customers or unfairly use that to your advantage.


No, it is not pretty standard stuff. I am friends with a lawyer that is specialized in labor law... and the man was utterly flabbergasted. Same goes for an acquaintance thar is a social security labor inspector.


You have a friend who says it's "not standard" (without saying why).... meanwhile over on reddit there are many, many people who have signed similar NDAs and who know about this sort of thing all saying it's a pretty standard NDA.

I see nothing about this that doesn't seem standard.


the problem is that standard will vary from industry to industry. what's normal for say.. table top gaming, is going to be differant from whats normal for working for an accounting firm


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Togusa wrote:
This week on "Why the community hates this company, but still shows up everyday to talk about it instead of just going away and finding something else to do."

At this point I don't care. I just do not care about any of this. Don't like it, don't sign it.


it does get annoying having every conversation on some parts of these fourms get derailed by the "I HATE GW... BUT I STILL DEDICATE MY LIFE TO OBESSSING OVER THEIR PRODUCT" crowd.


It does. It makes me think that some folks aren't as genuine about their dislike of the company as they try to put on. If a person truly had an issue with these things, they'd say "I can't associate with this game, the company or any of the online communities."
   
Made in us
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Seneca Nation of Indians

beast_gts wrote:
From the Reddit thread:

Khullain Paints! wrote:I have a friend who works as a patent lawyer for Microsoft. Asked him his advice on this NDA (which we don’t even know is real). And he seemed to think that other than being poorly written and a tad one sided it was a very standard NDA and far more lenient than most he deals with


(Twitter link)


'Is this excessive' 'It is. Our Corporate NDA at Microsoft is much lighter'. That looks an awful lot like he said the reverse, and then repeatedly said that it would be for a jury to decide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Togusa wrote:

It does. It makes me think that some folks aren't as genuine about their dislike of the company as they try to put on. If a person truly had an issue with these things, they'd say "I can't associate with this game, the company or any of the online communities."


Because for many of us it's not as black and white as that. I can like what I helped create, but hate what Games Workshop has become. I can detest the sort of brainless white knighting that goes on, and believe me, it's not limited to Games Workshop or its products, without hating the community.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/24 23:19:06


 
   
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 BaronIveagh wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
From the Reddit thread:

Khullain Paints! wrote:I have a friend who works as a patent lawyer for Microsoft. Asked him his advice on this NDA (which we don’t even know is real). And he seemed to think that other than being poorly written and a tad one sided it was a very standard NDA and far more lenient than most he deals with


(Twitter link)


'Is this excessive' 'It is. Our Corporate NDA at Microsoft is much lighter'. That looks an awful lot like he said the reverse, and then repeatedly said that it would be for a jury to decide.


That's pretty much what I'm getting from that too. The posters summation doesn't match the content of the linked conversation. In fact, it stated the opposite.
   
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Germany

beast_gts wrote:
From the Reddit thread:

Khullain Paints! wrote:I have a friend who works as a patent lawyer for Microsoft. Asked him his advice on this NDA (which we don’t even know is real). And he seemed to think that other than being poorly written and a tad one sided it was a very standard NDA and far more lenient than most he deals with


(Twitter link)


Poorly written and one-sided sounds very GW. They're not really known for uh, checking their spelling.
   
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Seneca Nation of Indians

 StrayIight wrote:

I'm missing where it's clear that this is real. Can you show me where this has been shown? I'm sincerely not asking as a challenge or to be a dick - I genuinely want to know if this is the case. I haven't seen as much personally..




It hasn't been proven or disproven. Occam's Razor suggest that it is, NDAs being an odd thing to fake, and sub optimal for generating controversy. As several people have observed, it does practically scream GW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/24 23:25:22



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




There have been weirder fakes in the past. It's not beyond the realm of possibility. Though yeah, I really question how boring someone's life would have to be to cook up a fake NDA...but it's the internet. I'm sure such people exist.
   
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Been Around the Block




Togusa wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Lord Kragan wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
So yet another thing that seems to be getting taken out of context or misconstrued in order to try and make GW look bad regardless of the facts? Seems like pretty standard stuff - you enter into a deal with a company, of course you shouldn't then be trying to take away their customers or unfairly use that to your advantage.


No, it is not pretty standard stuff. I am friends with a lawyer that is specialized in labor law... and the man was utterly flabbergasted. Same goes for an acquaintance thar is a social security labor inspector.


You have a friend who says it's "not standard" (without saying why).... meanwhile over on reddit there are many, many people who have signed similar NDAs and who know about this sort of thing all saying it's a pretty standard NDA.

I see nothing about this that doesn't seem standard.


the problem is that standard will vary from industry to industry. what's normal for say.. table top gaming, is going to be differant from whats normal for working for an accounting firm


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Togusa wrote:
This week on "Why the community hates this company, but still shows up everyday to talk about it instead of just going away and finding something else to do."

At this point I don't care. I just do not care about any of this. Don't like it, don't sign it.


it does get annoying having every conversation on some parts of these fourms get derailed by the "I HATE GW... BUT I STILL DEDICATE MY LIFE TO OBESSSING OVER THEIR PRODUCT" crowd.


It does. It makes me think that some folks aren't as genuine about their dislike of the company as they try to put on. If a person truly had an issue with these things, they'd say "I can't associate with this game, the company or any of the online communities."


You know posts like these are truly ridiculous.

Everyone posting here about the current state of affairs LOVES the game. I have been playing this game, off and on, for 25 years. I continue to post because I do love the game, and want it to be awesome.

People like you, and others who claim that their defense of the current practices is somehow the true way of supporting the game are dead wrong. You are substantively hurting the game you claim you are protecting. GW has done this before. They have taken the company to some very dark and bad places, through many of these same practices.

Pointing out bad things in the hope they get better isn't being a troll, it isn't being a black knight, it isn't anything other than attempting to stop what is a clearly bad path.
   
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The weird thing about dakka (and fan sites generally, tbh) is that it's the "positive" posters who complain about "negativity" who are typically more likely to make personal attacks than the "negative" posters. It's always puzzled me. This thread is a prime example of it. Theres' a small smattering of "white knight" style attacks, but it's only maybe 1:4 compared to the people who revel in personally attacking those they label "negative."

It's just something you have to get used to, if you react every time all it does is play into their hands as it gets threads derailed, which is the point of what they do in the first place. This is something I often struggle with myself in the heat of the moment, it can be really demoralizing to be discussing the substance of something and then have someone just show up and make an irrelevant personal attack because they don't like your opinion and can't engage with the substance, so they instead just try to insult you. But responding almost never gets you anywhere.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/24 23:53:34


 
   
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SoCal

Even those of us who don’t care what GW is selling or how the game is developing follow what GW is doing as they are so dominant in the world of Wargames. Their behavior can affect our games whether we hate GW or not.

   
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On a fundamental level, it doesn't matter whether someone hates GW (or loves GW, for that matter); it's a pointless accusation to level. What they write is either valid, or it isn't. People who target the poster instead of the content of their posts are just flagging themselves as unable to engage in adult conversation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/25 00:00:25


 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






yukishiro1 wrote:
On a fundamental level, it doesn't matter whether someone hates GW (or loves GW, for that matter); it's a pointless accusation to level. What they write is either valid, or it isn't. People who target the poster instead of the content of their posts are just flagging themselves as unable to engage in adult conversation.


Cobblers.

There are many posters on Dakka who will readily seize on *literally anything* GW does, then piss and whine about it.

My favourite are those who at least claim to have not bought anything for X years, yet still somehow feel their opinion carries any weight.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

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I want GW to get better, and I don't see any better way than to try to get as much boycott and hate going their way. It's way harder to ignore than polite feedback.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which may I add has historical precedent - we got a complete Sisters of Battle reboot afterall, which we most likely wouldn't get if we were sensible and polite about it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/25 00:26:38


"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado 
   
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Seneca Nation of Indians

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

My favourite are those who at least claim to have not bought anything for X years, yet still somehow feel their opinion carries any weight.


Now, if they said 'I haven't had a backlog to paint for x years' I might agree with this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/25 00:28:27



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
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Ultimately you can strike any clause from a contract before signing. If they don't accept the strikes you can rewrite it for them and see if it passes legal.

Anyone looking to seriously get in bed with any corporation should be getting legal advice.

   
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 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Which may I add has historical precedent - we got a complete Sisters of Battle reboot afterall, which we most likely wouldn't get if we were sensible and polite about it.


.....................

err GW brought back sisters due to a fan survey that showed high demand for the product.

seriously they where pretty upfront behind their reasons there

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/25 00:39:14


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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yukishiro1 wrote:
The weird thing about dakka (and fan sites generally, tbh) is that it's the "positive" posters who complain about "negativity" who are typically more likely to make personal attacks than the "negative" posters. It's always puzzled me. This thread is a prime example of it. Theres' a small smattering of "white knight" style attacks, but it's only maybe 1:4 compared to the people who revel in personally attacking those they label "negative."

It's just something you have to get used to, if you react every time all it does is play into their hands as it gets threads derailed, which is the point of what they do in the first place. This is something I often struggle with myself in the heat of the moment, it can be really demoralizing to be discussing the substance of something and then have someone just show up and make an irrelevant personal attack because they don't like your opinion and can't engage with the substance, so they instead just try to insult you. But responding almost never gets you anywhere.


I think it's usually a little more complex than that, but I'll admit I haven't bothered to read everything in this thread.

Much of it I think comes down to how people interpret words on the internet without body language and inflection.

   
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caladancid wrote:

Pointing out bad things in the hope they get better isn't being a troll, it isn't being a black knight, it isn't anything other than attempting to stop what is a clearly bad path.


And asking for evidence of assertions isn't being a "white knight" or "shill".

What usually drives me to post in topics like this is seeing obvious exaggeration & misinformation, or stories being accepted and repeated simply because they reinforce existing biases with no effort made to fact check. Sometimes there's a grain of truth, but the story is couched in deliberately polarising language to get people to take sides. Even the opening post of this thread states "new NDA they're apparently forcing on Content Creators" - as if those creators have no option to turn down the agreement or seek legal advice.

The echo chamber effect is a big problem for online communities in particular. Anything repeated often enough becomes "true", regardless of what actually happened. I still regularly see people in various wargaming communities repeating the line that "GW shut down all those fan Youtube channels", with the implication that they sued or otherwise drove fans out of the hobby. But I'm still yet to see any case of GW doing that. What there has been in reality are a handful of people who closed their Youtube channels as a result of what other people in the community have said. Alfabusa's decision was - rightly or wrongly - heavily influenced on what the larger community thought might happen, rather than direct action from GW. Sodaz' decision was a direct result of toxicity from the community after he agreed to work with GW.

Would you agree that it's problem when fans stop being fans due to rumours or misinformed opinions?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/25 00:45:13


 
   
Made in gb
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
On a fundamental level, it doesn't matter whether someone hates GW (or loves GW, for that matter); it's a pointless accusation to level. What they write is either valid, or it isn't. People who target the poster instead of the content of their posts are just flagging themselves as unable to engage in adult conversation.


Cobblers.

There are many posters on Dakka who will readily seize on *literally anything* GW does, then piss and whine about it.

My favourite are those who at least claim to have not bought anything for X years, yet still somehow feel their opinion carries any weight.



What part of what Yuki is saying here is wrong? Are we reading two different comments, or just interpreting them very differently, because I feel I've either missed something huge in what he's saying, or you're reading something very different into this statement.

It's entirely true that a comment is valid and useful, or it isn't. And that value need not have anything to do with a persons general stance on GW.

Likewise, an argument will stand or fall on it's own merit. If you're attacking a poster based on assumption of a current, or previous bias, regardless of whether or not their comment here and now is sound, you're not engaging in adult debate.

How is that cobblers?

And what makes a persons opinion more valuable because they've made a purchase within a certain time frame? Is my opinion more valuable because the last model I bought cost £140? What if I 3D print my 40K minis so buy none, or simply play with an existing collection? What if I make no GW purchase in the last two years because I buy 3rd party proxies? Why does any of that potentially make my argument less valid?

This seems bizarre to me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/25 01:01:54


 
   
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 xttz wrote:

And asking for evidence of assertions isn't being a "white knight" or "shill".


The probelm is what happens next, when proof is offered.

An example from earlier in this thread:

Asks for proof

Proof Presented. Outside sources referenced.

'Those sources are all liars! It doesn't say what it says! The Proof is fabricated! You just hate GW!"

I know I'm being reductive, but none of these positions were actually supported, just repeated ad nausium. Tell me, what's reasonable about screaming for the mods to close the thread, because it's all lies and misinformation? Rather than, you know, actually address the issue?

The closest thing to a reasonable argument for this being faked was stolen from the Twitter feed of a youtuber who's sponsored by GW.

Let's not pretend that what went on here was something it wasn't to put a better face on it. I've already seen this routine even when solid proof of GW attacking it's own fanbase was not only on offer, but in the open.

I'm waiting for one of them to claim that Games Workshop really won the 2020 election and playing Bolt Action will alter your RNA and make you a lizardman.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/09/25 01:35:20



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
On a fundamental level, it doesn't matter whether someone hates GW (or loves GW, for that matter); it's a pointless accusation to level. What they write is either valid, or it isn't. People who target the poster instead of the content of their posts are just flagging themselves as unable to engage in adult conversation.


Cobblers.

There are many posters on Dakka who will readily seize on *literally anything* GW does, then piss and whine about it.

My favourite are those who at least claim to have not bought anything for X years, yet still somehow feel their opinion carries any weight.


doubly so when those people openly advocate piracy.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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 BaronIveagh wrote:
 xttz wrote:

And asking for evidence of assertions isn't being a "white knight" or "shill".


The probelm is what happens next, when proof is offered.

An example from earlier in this thread:

Asks for proof

Proof Presented. Outside sources referenced.

'Those sources are all liars! It doesn't say what it says! The Proof is fabricated! You just hate GW!"

I know I'm being reductive, but none of these positions were actually supported, just repeated ad nausium. Tell me, what's reasonable about screaming for the mods to close the thread, because it's all lies and misinformation?

The closest thing to a reasonable argument for this being faked was stolen from the Twitter feed of a youtuber who's sponsored by GW.

Let's not pretend that what went on here was something it wasn't to put a better face on it. I've already seen this routine even when solid proof of GW attacking it's own fanbase was not only on offer, but in the open.

I'm waiting for one of them to claim that Games Workshop really won the 2020 election and playing Bolt Action will alter your RNA and make you a lizardman.


Alrighty, so let's continue with a couple assumptions:

A. This contract is real
B. This contract was sent to small content creators

No need to argue those points, so we can shove aside any hoo-hah about who is lying or not and we can look at a few things and reduce it down a bit from there.

We have a lot of people that say the contract is overbearing and overreaching, and we have a lot of people that think this sort of NDA is typical, normal, or even less restrictive than their own. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and agree that "Yes, this contract is restrictive and overbearing."

So we now agree on three things. It's real, it was sent to small content creators, and it's restrictive and overbearing. I'm willing to concede all of those points.

What does this tell us? What can we extrapolate?

Well, for one, as many people have expressed, GW's kinda dumb when it comes to legal stuff. They don't have a great track record when details of their legal actions meet the community. That's nothing new. Some parts, as some have pointed out, look awfully formatted with errors here and there on top of certain parts looking copy-pasted and other parts reading more like an employment contract rather than a confidentiality agreement. I think we're all generally on the same page on that. None of that inherently means its fake or anything, I'm just saying that I think we can all agree that the contract itself is messy, and it could very well be just an issue of PDF conversion and being a hodge-podge of other things.

Great, so as long as everyone is with me so far, what's the next thing we do from here?

THIS is where I hear crickets, and the issue that I have with this entire debate. If you want, feel free to go e-mail GW about their awful NDA. Send your condolences to the small content creators (which are as of yet unnamed, as far as I can see) and tell them that you feel for them having to deal with this awful, terrible contract.

Then what? Well, I'd tell them to lawyer up or don't sign it.

Cool, so... then what? Well, at this point, everything that could be done is done, and all that we're left with is a lot of petty, pedantic arguments between strangers on the Internet, further dividing an already split community.

Neat.
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Then THIS THING shows up at your door, giving you the option of either releasing reviews late, or being contractually obligated to GW for a positive review, and, in theory, to ONLY review GW products from there on out, unless you leave the industry entirely for at least three years.
Except we know that's not happening.

WintersSEO gets stuff early, hasn't given positive reviews, and has even said "Don't care, not doing it, these books are bad" to some of the stuff GW has sent him. And he still looks at products sent to him by other companies.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Then THIS THING shows up at your door, giving you the option of either releasing reviews late, or being contractually obligated to GW for a positive review, and, in theory, to ONLY review GW products from there on out, unless you leave the industry entirely for at least three years.
Except we know that's not happening.

WintersSEO gets stuff early, hasn't given positive reviews, and has even said "Don't care, not doing it, these books are bad" to some of the stuff GW has sent him. And he still looks at products sent to him by other companies.


Many mature, reasonable people wait for games and products to be out, for more people to get their hands on and review things. Content creators that don't have review deals with GW of any kind have done this sort of thing all the time, with many simply taking information that they get from other sources, leaks, and other videos to formulate and post their own opinion. It's a hustle.

So even if the only people that get GW product early HAVE TO put it in a positive light somehow, most fans will just wait for the "real" reviews to come out anyway. This is the biz. This is how it works with video game companies giving people early reviews of their video games or other sponsorship deals.
   
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caladancid wrote:
Pointing out bad things in the hope they get better isn't being a troll, it isn't being a black knight, it isn't anything other than attempting to stop what is a clearly bad path.
I'm starting to believe that there really are a bunch of people here who have buried so much of their identity into GW products that the very thought of them doing something wrong chills them to the core, and thus they lash out at anyone suggesting otherwise.

This entire thread is a microcosm, where a good chunk of those arguing that this NDA was fake or whatever did so via a stream of smarmy passive-aggressive (and sometimes outright aggressive) insulting posts.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Except we know that's not happening.



Yet. You're assuming that what we have had till now is the same thing that we will have going forward.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
 
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