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They basically had several things all at once:

1) Closure of the PG Program

2) Closure of many subsections of their community forums as well as removal of mods. Their very active forums were basically gutted and killed which was a shock since forums being active is rare these days.
Their expectation was that 3rd party fan sites would "take over/pick up the slack".

3) MKIII Rules in themselves were good, but the balance for factions was wonky. As I recall Skorn were in a nightmare position

4) GW pulled their finger out and changed. Alongside the stick of PP making mistakes in a row, GW started making some sensible choices which was a huge lure to people.

5) Shift away from "Cards/rules" in the box. They tried but the changes toward a rapid update of rules and balance basically killed their card aspect.
This kind of meant that they wound up shifting away from paper toward forced app use for the game. Which is a rocky thing because so many people dislike being forced to use apps for physical tabletop games


6) Theme system. Whilst the theme system allowed them to improve balance it also meant that people went from being able to build armies how they wanted to being showhorned into building armies in very specific niches to fit themes. I think this is one of those things that has relaxed a bit, but its still there.

7) Issues with plastic casting. The material they had wasn't popular. It didn't quite hold the quality and wasn't nice to clean or work with compared to resins or metals. Wargamers are super fussy and whilst they were making good moves to try and get into plastics, at the time, it just wasn't working out great for them.

8) Major supply issues. This is part PP and part the way that distributor groups mess up wargames in particular. Wargames rely on a lot of "old" products as their core, whilst distributors generally only like to focus on big orders of new things to order in. So there were huge problems with PP getting reliable supply to their 3rd party retail outlets around the world.
Some part was also PP's problems as well, but far as I could gather it was a joint thing of PP having an issue and the policies and ways that distributors operate which hit PP. This resulted in burning bridges with 3rd party stores and even where those bridges weren't burnt, there were still supply problems.

I'm sure there were a few other things that I've forgotten about over the last few years.



I think the other thing is that PP has just run out of steam as well. Dwindling sales coupled to rising costs for them (they did move their HQ but they are still in an expensive area to operate) means that they've lost investment money to reinvest into their firm.


The crippling thing was all these things happening all within a very short span of time. Any one on its own might not have been a huge problem; but each one happening alongside or in quick succession with the other caused a tidal wave of people moving out and into other games and mostly back into Warhammer.

 Overread wrote:

3) MKIII Rules in themselves were good, but the balance for factions was wonky. As I recall Skorn were in a nightmare position

4) GW pulled their finger out and changed. Alongside the stick of PP making mistakes in a row, GW started making some sensible choices which was a huge lure to people.

There was definitely a significant feedback loop in these two. The number of people I saw that decided they wanted to go play 40k but desperately needed to find a hill for Warmachine to die on first. The one that will forever drive me crazy is when someone pointed out that RAW, you couldn't charge a knocked down model. The number of people that cited the week between that being pointed out and errata'd as the inexcusable failure of the MK3 rules has always made that whole thing more than a little sus. Truth be told, my guess is almost every MK3 core rules issue comes down to it originally being designed with players being unable to target their own models with offensive effects through most of the playtesting, that someone eventually argued down to just stopping charging your own models. Almost every exploit in MK3 came down to attacking your own stuff.

The other.... really super weird PR issue with the MK3 launch is how they handled Infernals for the new edition. Up to that point, Infernals had largely been a go between for players and developers but with MK3 their role became interpreting RAW to almost comical levels and, with rulings that then came across as "working as intended" when they were clearly not (and errata'd almost immediately after). Some of this is definitely a community issue, as it was deemed completely unacceptable for there to not being a 100% correct way to play out any interaction at any local game night as a single moment of uncertainty could invalidate even a single night's casual tournament practice, but it was definitely a part of PP leaning way too hard into the dream of becoming a tabletop eSport.

The thing I remember most of this time is just how....exaggerated everything became. I was playing tons of games and they were on the whole great. There was a new learning curve and new questions came up, but nothing that got in the way of the game. It's just... every minor detail defined social media. The community just ate itself alive. Like absolutely insane levels of martyrdom over any and every perceived sleight. Each night at the shop became about discussing problems; none of which actually occurred in games being played.

Even Skorne was fine, (or at least, better than they were in MK2) its just that a lot of their power shifted away from the beloved Titan Herds onto rank and file troops. I totally sympathize with players being disappointed that their preferred playstyle was gone and that their MK2 armies did not transition well and that 6 month in rebalance was a huge improvement, but like.... Skorne was terrible for the entire duration of MK2. They got fixed faster in MK3 than the entire previous edition. To me, that was a really positive thing, but for others, each fix was just a failure of the edition, as if MK2 hadn't been defined by two of its worst out of the box failures that only get the slightest attempts to reign in for the whole thing.

Ultimately for me I drifted to playing other games, not because of anything wrong with the game, but just because I tired of the relentless negativity that defined every interaction with the game. Great games would end with discussions about whatever people were mad about on Twitter and I just got tired of trying to be excited about something that people were trying so hard to not have fun with. So many people played like its their job and it just started to feel like every water cooler rant the workplace has to offer.

Yeah there was certainly some exaggeration going on. In the end it was a near perfect feedback loop on multiple fronts. PP were on a downer and GW were on an up and it only had to tip the scales enough to cause a migration.

The issue since then is that GW has continued on the up in general (up to their limits on things like game balance); whilst PP hasn't really pushed nor solidified their position well.

We know there's still growth room in the market. Spartan Games rose to a good position and then imploded on themselves with, from what I can gather, more internal problems than a lack of customers; meanwhile Infinity has really grown over the last few years.

So MK4 was indeed announced today. You can watch the video here (https://youtu.be/sLMSBidai7M) but really you should read the article here (https://home.privateerpress.com/2022/07/26/warmachine-big-news/). PP has provided bullet points for each section which I've pasted below for ease of reference:

The Driving Reasons behind Embarking upon a New Edition
• New editions are controversial but necessary.
• “Living Games” have a shelf-life.
• Maintaining positive perception requires a constant stream of releases.

Understanding the Reasons behind the Difficult Choices We Have Made in the New Edition
• The existing catalog of miniatures for WARMACHINE and HORDES is overwhelming for players, retailers, and distributors, and continuing to expand upon that catalog exacerbates the problems that result from it.
• In order to maintain the playability of the entire catalog of existing models, we have created two arenas of play: Unlimited, which will allow all existing and new MKIV models to be playable; and Prime, which will provide limited model options in building armies from the preexisting catalog as well as incorporate all new MKIV releases.
• New mechanics created for MKIV, such as warjack customization, are not “backward-compatible” with existing models.
• It will take at least until the end of 2023 before we can release MKIV rules conversions for all existing models.

The New Hierarchy in Factions and Armies and the Introduction of Cadres
• In MKIV, the force you put on the tabletop is an Army, which is a subset of a Faction.
• Models from Armies within the same Faction are not compatible.
• Cadres provide small subsets of a Faction that are compatible with all Armies within a Faction.

An Explanation of How HORDES Will Be Incorporated in MKIV
• HORDES will no longer be a separately maintained brand; HORDES rules will be rolled into WARMACHINE.
• The first four armies for MKIV will be warcaster-led.
• Two all new warlock-led armies will launch in 2023.

Details about the All-New App That Is Being Developed for MKIV
• War Room will be a function within the new, FREE WARMACHINE app.
• The WARMACHINE app will provide the game rules and all model rules for FREE; no “card deck” purchases will be necessary.
• The WARMACHINE app will offer a subscription option for storing multiple army builds and receiving monthly premium content.

The Primary Differences between the Current and the New Editions
• MKIV is an evolution of the game.
• MKIV will support 50-, 75-, and 100-point battles
• MKIV introduces Command Cards, which provide one-off effects (like mini-feats) and can be purchased as part of your force construction.
• MKIV warcasters have customizable spell racks.
• MKIV warjacks are customizable with multiple weapon and head (cortex) options.

Our Production of WARMACHINE Models Is Changing with the Times
• Metal is no longer a viable material to produce models with due to rising costs.
• Overseas plastic product is rising in cost and possesses supply chain risks as well as difficulties in keeping products stocked.
• MKIV models will be produced using 3D printing technology.
• Warjacks are supplied with multiple head and weapon options and are engineered with cavities ready for magnets, which are supplied in the warjack kits, so loadouts can be easily changed between games.
• 3D printing production allows us to localize production in overseas markets to address accessibility of the products and eliminate additional costs of shipping and import fees.

The Rollout Strategy for MKIV
• Each MKIV Army will possess a limited number of SKUs, making the line easier to stock for retailers and distributors.
• Core Army Starters will contain enough models to field a 50-point army with options.
• Adding an Expansion box to a starter provides enough models to field a 75-point army with options.
• Add a warjack to have enough models to field a 100-point army with options.

Our Plans for Events in the New Era of MKIV
• We are committed to supporting MKIII events through the end of 2022.
• Official MKIV events and Organized Play will begin in 2023.
• Privateer will focus on key signature events at conventions we attend while supporting third-party competitive events like the WTC and Warfaire Weekend, which is taking up the Iron Gauntlet.
• In-store and club Organized Play kits will be available early in 2023.

What to Do with This Massive Flood of Information
• Tomorrow, download the beta rule document, two Legacy demo armies, and the rules for both the Orgoth Sea Raiders and the Cygnar Storm Legion battlegroups, and take MKIV for a test drive.
• If you find typos, errors, or bugs in the docs, let us know at feedback@privateerpress.com
• New MKIV armies begin shipping this fall.
• WARMACHINE app beta release at end of October.

"MKIV models will be produced using 3D printing technology."

It almost sounds like PP is going to close their factory and start using the same merchanting system that 3d print firms are using. Which is bold and interesting considering the wide variety in skills in the merchant community that I've seen. From big merchants who print stupidly dangerously and even ship uncured or supports still on models - all the way to those running a really safe professional setup.


That said production and supply has been a huge problem for PP. I do wonder if they'll ever shift toward selling their STLs to the community.



Now if you'll excuse me I have to go try and justify to myself and find money for more angelus metal models before they vanish

 Overread wrote:
Now if you'll excuse me I have to go try and justify to myself and find money for more angelus metal models before they vanish

In my hype leading up to the announcement I was re-prioritizing my new Legion army ... but now knowing there's minimal Hordes support for 1 year makes me wonder if I should do anything. But maybe you're right, amassing even more cool existing sculpts might be the move While finally trying to paint the Cryx army I started over a decade ago.

Even as a Hordes player, I'm very excited and have a bunch of thoughts. A few off the top:
- 3D printing was not the solution I expected but it could well work and allow PP to meet low-to-moderate demand in house.
- War Room being free means I'll finally use it
- I'll probably hold off buying new minis until whatever the two Hordes factions are, tho the Orlock are almost cool because beasts.

EDIT: All us Horders confused about Legacy support are being loudly reeducated on FB, Hordes factions will be included in the Legacy rules in Oct 2022. The Warmachine icon threw us all off and the note didn't make it clear.

This probable needs its own thread;

That said 3D printing is a surprise to me, esp since they are still using metals for Warcaster; still using plastics for Monster Apoc and I assume metal for their one off sculpts in Loot Crate.

Meanwhile much of the rest of the market is moving toward Sciocast or plastics.


I do wonder if it speaks less about the cost of things and more about PP's long history of problems getting product out to retailers and customers. It's surprising to see them shift toward using 3D printing. I'm glad as I think it will keep Warmachine and Hordes going; but it also kind of suggests to me that perhaps they aren't in a good position to invest heavily into it and to grow themselves up again. Or perhaps they are, but they want to ride out the massive mess that is international shipping right now (esp as their current isn't the best); and will ride it out using 3d printing and then perhaps reinvest into other methods down the line.

Certainly cast models can be produced far quicker than 3D printed ones.

It's a curious move considering that I know some in the 3D print world want to go the other way toward traditional casting to scale things up for a mass market.

I am cautiously optimistic about MKIV. it appears they know about and are addressing the things the community has been complaining about-sku bloat, stocking/supply, model materials etc...


I am a bit concerned that they may invalidate the models i like to play with in the same army, not that it is a huge deal because i can always play MKIII with friends. the other concern is turning it from a skirmish style game to a 40K esq army sized game.

 aphyon wrote:
I am cautiously optimistic about MKIV. it appears they know about and are addressing the things the community has been complaining about-sku bloat, stocking/supply, model materials etc...


I am a bit concerned that they may invalidate the models i like to play with in the same army, not that it is a huge deal because i can always play MKIII with friends. the other concern is turning it from a skirmish style game to a 40K esq army sized game.

By MK2 they were already dancing between skirmish and wargame.
They just kinda never really made their mind up and tried to walk the line between the two. I also think they were leaning toward wargame and then hit problems with their plastics and the whole MK3 period

The 3d printing production is a bit surprising, but honestly, I've been saying for a couple of years (to those few who listen to my rambling) that this was going to be inevitable, as the costs and production times for medium runs is easily comparable to resin casting, if not cheaper. The distributed, localized production is a really good point, too, which can help eliminate shipping and import costs for a lot of folks.

My real question there is whether or not they'll ever sell the STLs. I suspect not, but if they did, this would get a hearty approval from me.

We shall see where the rules go...

As much as I'd have liked to have seen Siocast, I'm sure they're shy about something that's a proprietary license given all the troubles they had with prior plastic runs. Curious to see the final products.

I am glad to see that the scale seems to be shrinking a good chunk. basically seems to be min size units only.

I think the other issue is simply investment. If they can use 3rd party printing firms in local regions to produce stock for Warmachine then that's a huge huge huge saving over buying Siocast machines and then having to do shipping and production.

I think its just a sign that PP aren't in a powerful position to invest heavily into a new manufacture system. Esp if their main HQ is still in an expensive area and such.

Sounds like a disaster (and given some of the decisions they listed, an earned one).

I'm going out for popcorn.

 Overread wrote:
I think the other issue is simply investment. If they can use 3rd party printing firms in local regions to produce stock for Warmachine then that's a huge huge huge saving over buying Siocast machines and then having to do shipping and production.

I think its just a sign that PP aren't in a powerful position to invest heavily into a new manufacture system. Esp if their main HQ is still in an expensive area and such.

The distributed production aspect is actually a really strong argument, and one I hadn't considered in my previous musing about 3d printing as production. I know a lot of folks are jumping on the Siocast stuff, but I've worked with a couple of those models and didn't really like the material all that much. Plus, the cost of one machine is a lot in comparison to how many, say, Phrozen Mega 8k you can get, and apparently there's a good amount of specialized training needed to operate the Siocast effectively.

It's also much more economical to scale a 3d printer farm than buy another Siocast.

I think distribution before Covid and Brexit wasn't as big an issue, but today it very much is. Of course 3D print still has issues because you have to ensure a supply of resin and that's spotty - a few of the bigger print farms I talk too have issues securing reliable sources of volume in regular supply. So they sometimes have to shift around what material they are printing.

But you are right, 3D printing can be really robust in terms of localising production and getting around a lot of shipping concerns right now; esp for a firm that's basically not heavily involved in shipping vast volumes right now and is looking to save on costs.


It's not perfect, but if they got into say the new Saturn 2 printers or the Mega 8K printers then the resolution on them is really really good and the build plate size more than suitable for high volume.


It's a very interesting pathway to see a casting firm going into 3D print that way. It might well be a nice stop-gap pathway that PP needs to rebuild themselves and rebuild their whole setup and see if Warmachine can take off again.

Heck perhaps the transport networks will soften out over the next years and PP will gain enough that they might return to cast manufacture - which can produce at very high volumes (3d printing you have to add more machines which means labour costs go up)

The one change I'm very leery towards is Command Cards. That's an element that I kind of enjoy in Warcaster, but it's my least favorite element of a huge number of games that I otherwise enjoy.

I'll be curious to see how much the core rules change. They mention modern movement, which makes me think it may be something like Legion or Warcaster. The smaller game size has me excited. 3/5 man units is a lot more manageable and pretty high on the short list of changes I've been wanting to see in a full reboot.

 Overread wrote:


It's not perfect, but if they got into say the new Saturn 2 printers or the Mega 8K printers then the resolution on them is really really good and the build plate size more than suitable for high volume.


It's a very interesting pathway to see a casting firm going into 3D print that way. It might well be a nice stop-gap pathway that PP needs to rebuild themselves and rebuild their whole setup and see if Warmachine can take off again.

Heck perhaps the transport networks will soften out over the next years and PP will gain enough that they might return to cast manufacture - which can produce at very high volumes (3d printing you have to add more machines which means labour costs go up)

Yeah, the Phrozen Mighty 8k is a pretty astounding machine. And you can buy like 5 of them for what a single Siocast machine costs apparently. I'm betting throughput on 5 Phrozen Mighty 8ks is probably close to what you could output in a single Siocast machine, but not entirely sure. Either way, I know PP mentioned that they did look at Siocast, and decided that wasn't the way for them (which I get; more specialized training and still have to make molds and store them, etc., and they'd need more than a single machine for sure).

I got in early for the Mighty 8k preoder earlier in the year and have had it for a few weeks and it prints amazingly well. It really is a massive jump from my other phorzens (original Sconic from like 5 years ago and then the mini 2 years ago).

As for Siocast Modiphius looked at it and really didn't like how swords/spear and similar weapons came out in it. They're currently all cast resin but suffering due to some growing pains as it takes a lot of time to train up a good resin caster and so a lot of stuff has been hard to find over the past 8 months.

Yeah, part of me wants to grab a Mighty 8k to upgrade from my Sonic Mini 4k, but at the same time, I don't have space and other things vying for my time and money...

I wouldn't be surprised if PP is somewhat successful in this 3d print production model to see other smaller companies (like Modiphius) jump on that bandwagon.

 Valander wrote:
Yeah, part of me wants to grab a Mighty 8k to upgrade from my Sonic Mini 4k, but at the same time, I don't have space and other things vying for my time and money...

I wouldn't be surprised if PP is somewhat successful in this 3d print production model to see other smaller companies (like Modiphius) jump on that bandwagon.

There are little companies already doing this because it makes a lot of financial sense for companies selling small quantities. Small companies like Greebo and Midknight sell 3D prints.

It is surprising because it seems to imply that Privateer Press do not expect to sell a large volume of miniatures like they have before.

 odinsgrandson wrote:

 Valander wrote:
Yeah, part of me wants to grab a Mighty 8k to upgrade from my Sonic Mini 4k, but at the same time, I don't have space and other things vying for my time and money...

I wouldn't be surprised if PP is somewhat successful in this 3d print production model to see other smaller companies (like Modiphius) jump on that bandwagon.

There are little companies already doing this because it makes a lot of financial sense for companies selling small quantities. Small companies like Greebo and Midknight sell 3D prints.

It is surprising because it seems to imply that Privateer Press do not expect to sell a large volume of miniatures like they have before.

That, or they think the method can handle the (hopefully for them) larger quantities needed than Greebo, for example.

Regardless of how other things go, that part is what I'm most interested in. I've been thinking that was going to be "the new way" for smaller to medium sized publishers soon, and looks like that time might be about here. (Don't believe me, search my post history, lol)

Not getting the warm fuzzies from rhe announcement. Most of the existing miniature range wont be getting rules for another 18 months and only a limited subset will be immediately playable on launch. As revealed elsewhere, theyre also apparently discontinuing the existing model line as knventory and molds/materials deplete. I can understand trimming the fat but it feels like a big kick in the balls to longtimers

 Overread wrote:
"MKIV models will be produced using 3D printing technology."

It almost sounds like PP is going to close their factory and start using the same merchanting system that 3d print firms are using. Which is bold and interesting considering the wide variety in skills in the merchant community that I've seen. From big merchants who print stupidly dangerously and even ship uncured or supports still on models - all the way to those running a really safe professional setup.


That said production and supply has been a huge problem for PP. I do wonder if they'll ever shift toward selling their STLs to the community.



Now if you'll excuse me I have to go try and justify to myself and find money for more angelus metal models before they vanish

Not even a little. They said they will be doing the 3d printing in house on socials, and that they are exploring options for overseas markets with the big question beong whether they own and operate the overseas ops or partner with others to do it.

They aren't releasing STLs into the wild so that "PrintNPlay601" on etsy will be printing your minis on demavd. The goal is to produce the minis and put them into retail stores.

locking this up — feel free to start a new one but for now the N&R thread is prob the right place for broad discussion

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/806214.page