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leerm02 wrote:
Wow, that strat is basically: "pick a custodes unit to kill this phase". I bet the tau players are loving this! (our faction, not so much...)

It's subfaction locked. We'll have to see if that's the subfaction people like.

Late to the party, subbing to thread.

So this is what I was afraid of. People are so happy over the shiney new toy (Katas) that they are not seeing the emergent trend, i.e. GW is sick of Invulns, and wants them to not be a thing anymore.

Audustum wrote:

leerm02 wrote:
Wow, that strat is basically: "pick a custodes unit to kill this phase". I bet the tau players are loving this! (our faction, not so much...)

It's subfaction locked. We'll have to see if that's the subfaction people like.

It's also one weapon on one model.

Hell, a Fusion Gun (assuming Melta stats) hitting on a 3+ still has a more than 60% chance of failing to kill a single Custodian Guard with no shield. And that's in Melta range!

 JNAProductions wrote:

Audustum wrote:

leerm02 wrote:
Wow, that strat is basically: "pick a custodes unit to kill this phase". I bet the tau players are loving this! (our faction, not so much...)

It's subfaction locked. We'll have to see if that's the subfaction people like.

It's also one weapon on one model.

Hell, a Fusion Gun (assuming Melta stats) hitting on a 3+ still has a more than 60% chance of failing to kill a single Custodian Guard with no shield. And that's in Melta range!

That's a good point too. I didn't realize it was only on one model! If it was used on some serious firepower coming our way we can also always shut off re-rolls and Transhuman too.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So this is what I was afraid of. People are so happy over the shiney new toy (Katas) that they are not seeing the emergent trend, i.e. GW is sick of Invulns, and wants them to not be a thing anymore.

Which is weird because Black Templars just got a 5+ invuln army wide and Custodes got their version. 1 book later GW is changing their entire strategy and giving everyone a way to ignore invulns. Can they maintain a consistent and cohesive design philosophy for just one edition? Each edition only lasts like 2 years now so it can't be that hard...

and, I must point out, "ignore invunerable saves" has Been A Thing for this whole edition. C'tan nightbringer has been able to do it, the Deathwatch have a swrod they can give to regular squad sgts that can do it, even. Yes those are melee weapons but still, they haven't really invalidated our faction YET.

JNAProductions wrote:

Audustum wrote:

leerm02 wrote:
Wow, that strat is basically: "pick a custodes unit to kill this phase". I bet the tau players are loving this! (our faction, not so much...)

It's subfaction locked. We'll have to see if that's the subfaction people like.

It's also one weapon on one model.

Hell, a Fusion Gun (assuming Melta stats) hitting on a 3+ still has a more than 60% chance of failing to kill a single Custodian Guard with no shield. And that's in Melta range!

Fair point, but I'd argue that our single model units like dreadnoughts or bike captains suffer the most here. The option to remove or severely damage such a high value target with consistency is very powerful.

Regarding our Infantry, I worry more about high volume Ap2 shots.

xerxeskingofking wrote:and, I must point out, "ignore invunerable saves" has Been A Thing for this whole edition. C'tan nightbringer has been able to do it, the Deathwatch have a swrod they can give to regular squad sgts that can do it, even. Yes those are melee weapons but still, they haven't really invalidated our faction YET.

The Nightbringer was a counterpick against custodes since he got his new rules. But like you said he's a melee threat and can be slowed and outmaneuvered. This is more difficult to do against shooting weapons that ignore invulns.

Look, I'm not saying it's the end of the world for custodes here, but the rate at which GW is putting out rules to invalidate invulns is frankly a bit worrying.

Man, I always love the chicken-littleing by some people whenever another faction's dex is about to come out.

Yeah it seems like GW is giving almost everyone a 5+ inv. all aspect warriors are gonna have one too.

"Give a single model the ability to ignore Invuln saves in a shooting round" changes A LOT when we are talking about the burst fire of a Heavy Burst Fire Cannon, that is 48" H6, S12 AP5 d4. Lets not also overlook the battlesuits can fire in melee now, and when charged, "jump out of the charge" making them nonchargeable for a round. I just feel like this is why Custodes need to give up relying on just turtle style, and be able to get into the fight faster, and wreck stuff. But we are now locked at d2, so we either over kill a bunch of drones and firewarriors, or we barely do enough wounds to bracket a FW battlesuit.

With how rampant high AP weaponry is, this is GW's terrible band aid solution. Which they then circumvent with this nonsensical "ignore invuln" weaponry. Mortal wounds exist already as a mechanic, it's bizarre they're going out of their way to work around the defenses they're handing out.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Audustum wrote:

leerm02 wrote:
Wow, that strat is basically: "pick a custodes unit to kill this phase". I bet the tau players are loving this! (our faction, not so much...)

It's subfaction locked. We'll have to see if that's the subfaction people like.

It's also one weapon on one model.

Hell, a Fusion Gun (assuming Melta stats) hitting on a 3+ still has a more than 60% chance of failing to kill a single Custodian Guard with no shield. And that's in Melta range!

You wouldn't use it on a fusion gun.

In any case, GW has clearly hit on a trend, ignoring invul saves. This trend will ONLY increase, like -1 damage did, until it is mundane and common in armies. This happens EVERY time GW hits on a trend. They over proliferated invuls (which devalues ours, ha), so now they are proliferating ways around invuls. I mean, at least this is a trend we got some sugar from, but it is gonna kick us pretty hard in half a year's time.

stratigo wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Audustum wrote:

leerm02 wrote:
Wow, that strat is basically: "pick a custodes unit to kill this phase". I bet the tau players are loving this! (our faction, not so much...)

It's subfaction locked. We'll have to see if that's the subfaction people like.

It's also one weapon on one model.

Hell, a Fusion Gun (assuming Melta stats) hitting on a 3+ still has a more than 60% chance of failing to kill a single Custodian Guard with no shield. And that's in Melta range!

You wouldn't use it on a fusion gun.

In any case, GW has clearly hit on a trend, ignoring invul saves. This trend will ONLY increase, like -1 damage did, until it is mundane and common in armies. This happens EVERY time GW hits on a trend. They over proliferated invuls (which devalues ours, ha), so now they are proliferating ways around invuls. I mean, at least this is a trend we got some sugar from, but it is gonna kick us pretty hard in half a year's time.

It's locked to one unit. I don't play Tau. What loadouts does it get?

Audustum wrote:


It's locked to one unit. I don't play Tau. What loadouts does it get?

its locked to a single gun, chosen by the player on casting, from the unit he chooses, so it could be any gun in the armory, but only one instance of that gun.

Overcharged Riptide would be fun with this stratagem Heavy 6 + 2, S7, AP -3, Dmg 3. Overcharge to S8 & Dmg 4. 1 MW per 1 to hit if i read the leaks right.

Commander with relic and HH hero looks nice too but im sure our tough guys can take the hit, i mean we have the glorious kata for the good players what else do we need. Nervermind the sneaking from los blocking terrain to los blocking terrain because we are the golden gits!

Deepstrike or bikes... .

Jokes aside i'm really happy for them, their codex looks like fun.

Torgroll wrote:
Overcharged Riptide would be fun with this stratagem Heavy 6 + 2, S7, AP -3, Dmg 3. Overcharge to S8 & Dmg 4. 1 MW per 1 to hit if i read the leaks right.

Commander with relic and HH hero looks nice too but im sure our tough guys can take the hit, i mean we have the glorious kata for the good players what else do we need. Nervermind the sneaking from los blocking terrain to los blocking terrain because we are the golden gits!

Deepstrike or bikes... .

Jokes aside i'm really happy for them, their codex looks like fun.

The tau have a problem that their codex, when good, is just fething awful to play against. They stand up, shoot you, shoot you more, shoot again. And that's it. There's no interaction, indeed the tau player is better off the more he can just ignore whatever the other player does. They made them miserable in 8th, and they're still not fun in 9th, and GW is going "Well, since we made riptides no longer actually immortal, guess we better give them enough shooting to one round anyone".

If tau are tournament playable, it'll be through the same gak GW had to nerf into non existence from orks and admech. Cause they never learn

It feels like GW had two very different rules teams here. One did Custodes, and didn't care about them, but had just watched the entire collection of Sammo Hung Kung fu movies, and the team that did the Tau codex was entirely comprised of Tau playing fans who were very upset that they didn't get to play a lot in 8th, or 9th, and wanted to go back to the days of 7th. Look at the complexity difference:

Custodes - Pick three, then two, then 1, now follow this Venn diagram, but blindfolded.

Tau - BIG GUN GO PEW PEW YOU TAKE 60 DAMAGE, NO SAVE! HURR HURR.

Rules talk aside, there is something inherently funny about the pitch meeting that must have taken place for the new Custodes dex:

"What's better than nearly immortal golden space-marine demi-gods?"

"Nearly immortal golden space-marine demi-gods that know KARATE!"

"Sold! Someone promote this man!"

Mr. Funktastic wrote:

artific3r wrote:
I suspect the ka'tahs are what's going to separate an average Custodes player from a great one. All the depth of the codex is locked up in the ka'tahs and the Emp's Chosen strat.

Using just the datasheets, basic strats, and non-Emperor's Chosen shield hosts will probably be a sort of baseline way to play the army. But I really think the real test of skill (and perhaps the real power of the book, who knows) is going to be in learning how to get mileage out of 1) your stance order, 2) Esteemed Amalgam, and 3) Martial Discretion.

Your stance order is obviously super important because if you get it right, you won't have to burn as much CP on Martial Discretion to get the effect you want on the unit you want, which would then free up Esteemed Amalgam for use on something else, or simply save you 1 CP for any of the other myriad, highly useful 1 CP strats.

Esteemed Amalgam can essentially be thought of as 5 strats in 1. Martial Discretion is 12 strats in 1. Not sure I'd describe a set of 17 strats that work on your whole army (excluding vehicles) as ignorable.

I agree with this take completely. I suspect the people that are down on katahs either haven't played with them enough or aren't even bothering to give them a fair shake in the first place. Katahs are potent and impactful if you use them correctly and depending on the match ups. Rendax makes our anti vehicle capability so much better across our whole army since the auto wounding on 6's applies to both shooting and melee and the +1S can basically be translated to +1 to wound in a lot of circumstances. Calistus increases our early/late game mobility significantly. Conservai makes action secondaries like Deploy Teleport Homer much more viable for us now. Dacatarai/Kaptaris can seriously neuter melee armies if used properly. And if things like Venatari Lances and Pyrithite Spears from FW get auric, you'll be seeing more people use Salvus too. All of those things spread across more or less army wide really adds up. You can seriously do some pretty nutty things with katahs that you wouldn't be able to if you know how to use them. Sleep on them at your own peril.

I agree with all of this absolutely. To master playing the old custodes, it was all about expert resource management: managing a small number of quality units, using them to constantly create threats and contain the enemy while maximising points scored, alongside measured CP use to ensure the right choices were made from our host of high quality strats.

The new book takes this and turns it up to 11. I haven't had the chance to playtest yet, but the sheer versatility of the rules provided by the Emps Chosen shield host just bring an insane depth to the army. The trait is always good on every unit, and with the new stratagem style encouraging msu that rule will be utilized throughout the game. I think people are quick to discount just how great a single rr to hit or wound can be, and with the general high quality and scarcity of Custodes attacks it can just make all the msu units so much more efficient.

As mentioned above, the existence of the ka'tahs breadth of benefits provides so so many decisions to make in order to optimise performance. Combine that with the ability for a single unit to use any ka'tah/shield host trait for 1 CP and there's just so much juice that can be squeezed out of every point of the game. The resource management required to master the army has increased tenfold and for that I have really come around on the design of the book. I'm really excited to learn how to play it well and take it to events.

I'd be wrong not to mention that I am at least a little disappointed we aren't lacking the raw damage potential I wished our units had (lack of access to 3 damage sources is criminal) and am definitely fearful of the prevalence of ignored invulns. It's a rather hostile meta for the Custodes at the moment and it might only get worse from here, just have to hope our counters will wane soon. I am hoping that GW tones down the 'it' thing they keep doing, prev with ignoring damage then with -1dmg and now ignoring invulns in the tau. I hope that the quarterly balance dataslates/biannual seasons promote more active tuning of these meta.

I think someone mentioned that it seems like the 9e dexes have been written by different people and I have to disagree. It's been pretty clear across 9e that while GW is introducing clear power creep, each books internal balance and relative power has been steadily getting better. If this book released when it was meant to it would've been amazing and performed brilliantly after the balance update. Once the FW FAQ comes out and we can look at the army holistically, I'm pretty confident in assuming we're gonna find that the army is very satisfying to learn, play as and against .The Custodes and GSC dexes are masterpieces for flavour, internal balance and flair imo. It's a shame that power creep is so profitable, because if every book was like these two we'd be in a very very good era of game design.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It feels like GW had two very different rules teams here. One did Custodes, and didn't care about them, but had just watched the entire collection of Sammo Hung Kung fu movies, and the team that did the Tau codex was entirely comprised of Tau playing fans who were very upset that they didn't get to play a lot in 8th, or 9th, and wanted to go back to the days of 7th. Look at the complexity difference:

Custodes - Pick three, then two, then 1, now follow this Venn diagram, but blindfolded.

Tau - BIG GUN GO PEW PEW YOU TAKE 60 DAMAGE, NO SAVE! HURR HURR.

Now don't take this in a wrong way, but I assume you haven't played with the new codex yet?
The Kata system may seem rigid or complicated until you try it out. In reality, it improves the flexibility of custodes and it's more complicated on paper than in reality. Plus, you are free to not use it at all. The army (based on just 1 game I had so far), feels very free on the table.
According to the lore, Custodes adapt to their opponents, right? I remember a scene from Master of Mankind I think, were a Custodian let their opponent to swing at him a couple of times, to get information and then, pummeled him.

This is how the codex actually feels in a way. You have a big toolkit that can adapt to your opponent. Same with Katas, the fact you choose them AFTER your opponent deployed, gives you chance to prepare bonuses toy counter your opponent.

I was also down on the katas at first, feeling they don't match the fluff, but I might've been wrong. Obviously, to match the fluff 100%, the katas would be chosen per model, but that'd be nuts And with EC you can still change hosts or katas per unit, so that's very close to the fluff considering the limitations of a game.

So I don't agree with your assessment that the guy writing the custodes codex didn't care about them. The opposite might be true actually.


EDIT: Also, in fluff, custodes study A LOT, right? They learn about their enemies to prepare in advance and are also able to adapt on the battlefield based on their opponent. That makes EC an amazing representation of fluff in game when you think about it.

I'm still trying to figure out why everyone is saying that ignoring invul saves is so common. Tau are the only army I know of that can do it very much, and even that is with specific weapons and/or a specific subfaction. The C'tan Nightbringer shard is one model, from a faction that isn't exactly dominating the meta. That Deathwatch weapon mentioned earlier (the Xenophase Blade); do any Deathwatch players actually take it?

Am I missing any ignore invuls here? Or is everyone including lists like GK and TS that can spam Psychic powers as ignoring invul saves? Because those have been ignoring saves since early 8th (anyone remember Chaos Malefic Lord spam lists? Pepperidge Farm remembers).

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out why everyone is saying that ignoring invul saves is so common. Tau are the only army I know of that can do it very much, and even that is with specific weapons and/or a specific subfaction. The C'tan Nightbringer shard is one model, from a faction that isn't exactly dominating the meta. That Deathwatch weapon mentioned earlier (the Xenophase Blade); do any Deathwatch players actually take it?

Am I missing any ignore invuls here? Or is everyone including lists like GK and TS that can spam Psychic powers as ignoring invul saves? Because those have been ignoring saves since early 8th (anyone remember Chaos Malefic Lord spam lists? Pepperidge Farm remembers).

Its becoming more common I think is the point - besides the ones you mentioned there is Belakor who ignores them in combat, our lockwarden WT, GSC have a way to do it on a character but Tau are the main offenders with High Damage, High AP ranged attacks.
Giving it to ranged attacks makes it a hell of alot more powerful, the new strat is sept locked and costs 2 CP which is pretty costly but when you consider it can be used on the massive gun on a Stormsurge (or god forbid a Ta'unar) it will just auto delete anything it shoots.

Its part of the wider issue with durability and lethality that is plaguing 9th edition -

They up the wounds on marines and other models - they then make more weapons have multi damage - they then give more units -1 damage.

They up the AP of weapons across the board (primaris bolters, blade artists, pulse rifles, choppas, etc....)- then armour become pretty pointless so they give out invulns like candy (seriously most factions can take them army wide!) - now they are introducing attacks to ignore invulns as its pretty silly that powerful weapons are getting saved against on all targets.


The problem is that this just creates rock/paper/scissors matchups - does your opponent have the new rules to counter your rules or vice versa? if so a bad game is had.

Custodes are on the bottom end of most of these matchup unfortunately, our damage is mostly flat 2 and high AP and we rely on good armour and invuln saves for are survivability - all of which are becoming pretty poor.

Nullzone, several SoB miracle dice abilities, "Always wounds on a X" abilities, Two assassins, and MWs are all DGAF about your Invuln saves. But then there are also things like the new Eldar mess where they are basically getting miracle dice, so they can force you to roll a 1 on your save, when tanking that fusion pistol to the face, or worse, the Fire Lance. Also, Avatar of Khaine is getting Ignores invulns on his sword as well. According to leaks.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out why everyone is saying that ignoring invul saves is so common. Tau are the only army I know of that can do it very much, and even that is with specific weapons and/or a specific subfaction. The C'tan Nightbringer shard is one model, from a faction that isn't exactly dominating the meta. That Deathwatch weapon mentioned earlier (the Xenophase Blade); do any Deathwatch players actually take it?

Am I missing any ignore invuls here? Or is everyone including lists like GK and TS that can spam Psychic powers as ignoring invul saves? Because those have been ignoring saves since early 8th (anyone remember Chaos Malefic Lord spam lists? Pepperidge Farm remembers).

There haven't been many ignore Invuls so far but now that they are no longer locked to very powerful units like the Nightbringer / Belakor or a rare weapon so it seems people are getting concerned this is the new design trend where more common units (and strats) will come out that will ignore Invuls.

Which is a little premature. Ignore invulns on a AP-3 weapon still leaves us with a 5+ armor save, for example. Yeah, we don't want the ability slathered across tons of stuff because then the 4++ we pay for isn't doing anything, but it's O.K. on this strat in my view.

Again, this is just a single faction, but just in the last two months, we've seen the faction that relies on Invulns more than any other faction, flanked by two entire factions that have units and abilities, which can now easily ignore Invulns at will. That being Tau and Eldar. This is very disturbing trend, and should not be brushed aside with a casual wave of the hand. This is why I was so hesitent to proclaim our vaunted Emperor's Chosen 4+++ against MWs as king.

MWs are no longer the name of the threat. If you have units that can ignore Invulns, you don't need MWs. Unless you are Mortarian, where even a double shoot from a Hammerhead fails to kill.

 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
.The Custodes and GSC dexes are masterpieces for flavour

Competitive power is great and all but if I'm being honest this is my favorite thing about the new book. Learning to play Custodes suddenly feels like you are studying to become a martial arts demigod, one who has mastered all forms of warfare and knows exactly the right move to use on exactly the right unit at the exactly the right time. The fact that your whole army can use all stances and all fighting styles really rams home the theme of every single Custodian being a hyper versatile, multi-disciplined, warrior-hero in his own right. Even if the meta shifts against Custodes I will still be happy with this book for delivering on the flavor side of things.

People were pretty down on the new codex in the weeks leading up to release, but I think they will come around once they sit down and take the time to learn the ka'tahs and the fighting styles. There is a lot of depth here, and a lot of the book's power is hidden away in that depth.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Nullzone, several SoB miracle dice abilities, "Always wounds on a X" abilities, Two assassins, and MWs are all DGAF about your Invuln saves. But then there are also things like the new Eldar mess where they are basically getting miracle dice, so they can force you to roll a 1 on your save, when tanking that fusion pistol to the face, or worse, the Fire Lance. Also, Avatar of Khaine is getting Ignores invulns on his sword as well. According to leaks.

1 SoB miracle dice ability.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The faction that relies on Invulns more than any other faction

Yeah - that would be Daemons.