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Excuse my lack of practical knowledge but does this new codex have the tools to crack chunky units that either have high armor AOC and or have chronic access to -1D? A lot of our workhorse units only sport -2 AP and are usually D2 which means we lose a lot of value against those modifiers.

MW are the obvious answers to get around this but I’m unsure if the ways we apply them are consistent.

Off the top of my head we gave flames of spite disco and the master of executions. And maybe abaddon. Wondering if things like decimators might be needed in metas that frequently pose these problems.

EightFoldPath wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Possessed don't get access to Relics for the Champ. If you want them tougher, you need to shell out for psyker support.

They do get access. The Possessed Champion has the word Champion so can take a relic, but most of the relics other than the Rune require a specific weapon which they don't have. Same issue with Warp Talons.

Thought the unit needed to be CORE too? Well, that certainly helps then.

I think if you want to use chosen the only “advantage” they have over terminators or possessed is they can ride in a rhino. Kind of like the way people use beserkers.

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Excuse my lack of practical knowledge but does this new codex have the tools to crack chunky units that either have high armor AOC and or have chronic access to -1D? A lot of our workhorse units only sport -2 AP and are usually D2 which means we lose a lot of value against those modifiers.

MW are the obvious answers to get around this but I’m unsure if the ways we apply them are consistent.

Off the top of my head we gave flames of spite disco and the master of executions. And maybe abaddon. Wondering if things like decimators might be needed in metas that frequently pose these problems.

We could also rely on weight of dice. Accursed weapons are AP3, with icon of Khorne, they would be AP4. They are all damage 1, so the -1 damage basically doesn't affect them. A unit of 10 plus the aspiring champion. There's 41 attacks, and wanton slaughter gives that exploding hits, you can reroll hits, use fury of khorne for 6s auto wounds, or use veterans of the long war for +1 to wound. (or save 2cp by just having your MOP cast a psychic instead). Black legion also has a strategem (abit expensive) called "Tip of the Spear" that gives your unit reroll charges and adds 1 AP to melee. You won't delete an entire unit of blight lord terminators, but I think you would take a massive chunk off with that charge. With blightlords you don't even need anything more than AP3 because they have a 4++ invul anyway. So just focus on getting better to hit and wound.

Take let's take the blightlord terminators with terminator armor and AOC, and 4++ and digustingly resilient. AP3 is enough. So just mark of khorne or casting the mutated invigoration to +1 strength is enough to make accursed weapons str 6 which gives us 3s to wound. Black legion already gives us 2s to wound once we charge in. (Or use wrath of the chosen for +1 to hit). Even a daemon prince or lord is enough for a reroll 1s to hit. Lets assume we are in wanton slaughter. We can also do Fury of Khorne but lets leave that for now.

41 attacks will result in 46.7 hits because of exploding 6s and reroll 1s. 3s to wound would mean 31.1 wounds getting through. He gets his 4++ save and disgustingly resilient doesn't matter. So, half of that means 15.56 wounds gets through. So, that's 5 blightlord terminators dead. Pretty nice big chunk against one of the most durable units in the game. Add that daemon prince or chaos lord nearby that was giving reroll 1st to hit and if it can kill 2 or 3 more and there won't be much left of that big 10 man blightlord unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xeen wrote:
I think if you want to use chosen the only “advantage” they have over terminators or possessed is they can ride in a rhino. Kind of like the way people use beserkers.

It is a big advantage in certain situations though. I am rediscovering the power of transports with CSM. Our rhinos are only 80 points now. And with the embark and disembark rules, there are some interesting re-positioning jank we can do with transports (see my example with Abaddon in an earlier post on page 5). Even within a Land raider. If you want to embark a character into a landraider, then you only have space left for chosen or other elites instead of possessed and terminators.

I love the idea of putting 2 min squads of infantry into a Rhino. We get 2 units that can do stuff plus the rhino itself for a very mobile package with a big threat range when the 2 units disembark. Even two units of Chosen in a Rhino. Turn 1 advance up. Turn 2, disembark and charge deep into a flank. Is your opponent prepared for 30 wounds worth of chosen in combat with him deep down one flank on turn 2? Or a unit of zerkers and a unit of chosen. Whichever combination of elites we want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xeen wrote:
How are people running possessed? I feel like 5 might not be enough for an anchor unit but 10 might be overkill against most units. I was thinking of using 10 with the -1 wound relic (which I believe they can take) as my center unit instead of ten terminators and make the terminators 5 man and deep strike them right harass backfield. Or 5 possessed to support the ten man terminator squad in the center. Thoughts?

I have been trying out a 5 man squad so far. More tactically flexible. But I don't use them as my big center unit. I tend to run them up slightly at the flank straight through the cover and ruins. Possessed with the -1 to wound relic are amazing.

I kind of wonder at how enduring this 10 man terminator block buffed to the max defensively will be. I know it will take some opponents by surprise. But pretty soon, I bet people will learn to just not waste their time on such a block. They will treat it like they do any 10 man terminator bloc (as something that is super hard to kill). So, unless they have literally brought a list that has tools designed to kill such a blob. The experienced players will learn to just avoid it. Lets not forget. We need to include the points of all the characters we use to support such a blob (like MOP and/or dark apostle) and the CP we used for any relics or strategems too. That's a ton of investment for a blob that moves 5 inches and takes one objective.

In matchplay, deathguard seems to have better secondaries for that kind of play. Most of the legions will end up with kill secondaries or engage on all fronts, in which case you kind of want more points going up the flanks and not quite such a huge commitment to just the center. The only legion I feel that would want to play this style is World Bearer legion. They got a secondary called Exalt the Dark gods that makes them want to go to the center and perform an action to exalt. Pair that with the psychic secondary warp ritual. And they will settle two of their secondaries just by dominating the center.

But this applies mainly just for world bearers because Exalt the Dark Gods secondary is specific only to world bearers. Let's not forget also. 3 out of 9 of the matchplay strikeforce missions do not have a center objective. So, one third of the time, going with this strategy means you have a massive investment of points sitting in the center on zero objectives... Although, I suppose you could try and string out towards the left or right to cover one objective. (It all depends on how far you can stretch out this blob and the key characters).

Also, I haven't played any of my lists against Tau yet. How would we fare against a Tau gunline I have no idea. Would we have enough assets to weather the shooting and get enough units into combat? Or will we just get shot off the board by their railguns and such ... I suppose Abaddon will be key here since Tau operates in mainly just one phase. But he is only one model and he can't solo the whole Tau army himself.

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Excuse my lack of practical knowledge but does this new codex have the tools to crack chunky units that either have high armor AOC and or have chronic access to -1D? A lot of our workhorse units only sport -2 AP and are usually D2 which means we lose a lot of value against those modifiers.

You can crack anything with 9D6+18 (average 49.5) warpflamer autohits, with +1 to wound from VOTLW. Against T7, thats 25 wounds at AP-2. If it survives, its seriously hurt. Unless it has a X wound per phase cap. 10 rubrics are the most point efficient unit in the entire codex, with psyker support for 252 points. I wouldnt be surprised seeing 30 of them on tournaments.

Until they change it so Warpflamers don't get the bonus from Let the Galaxy Burn...

 p5freak wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Excuse my lack of practical knowledge but does this new codex have the tools to crack chunky units that either have high armor AOC and or have chronic access to -1D? A lot of our workhorse units only sport -2 AP and are usually D2 which means we lose a lot of value against those modifiers.

You can crack anything with 9D6+18 (average 49.5) warpflamer autohits, with +1 to wound from VOTLW. Against T7, thats 25 wounds at AP-2. If it survives, its seriously hurt. Unless it has a X wound per phase cap. 10 rubrics are the most point efficient unit in the entire codex, with psyker support for 252 points. I wouldnt be surprised seeing 30 of them on tournaments.

And now give them reroll to wound with Abaddon... lol They will melt anything.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Until they change it so Warpflamers don't get the bonus from Let the Galaxy Burn...

Almost like they didn't think the codex through very much......
Still waiting for that scathing review LOL

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Until they change it so Warpflamers don't get the bonus from Let the Galaxy Burn...

Almost like they didn't think the codex through very much......

Business as usual.

Also put together a SUPER rough draft for a list from glancing the codex and Battlescribe to make sure there's no errors. Whelp, let's begin. Since there's no Super Doctrines I don't feel hampered to not stick to one Legion, so I'm going Black Legion Battalion and Red Corsairs Vanguard.

Black Legion Battalion -
HQ:
×1 Worldclaimer
. Warlord
×1 Cypher

Troops:
×10 Cultists
×10 Cultists
×10 Cultists

Fast Attack:
×7 Raptors
. 2 Plasma Guns, 1 Power Fist, Mark of Khorne or Nurgle
×7 Raptors
. 2 Plasma Guns, 1 Power Fist, Mark of Khorne or Nurgle
×7 Raptors
. 2 Plasma Guns, 1 Power Fist, Mark of Khorne or Nurgle

Heavy Support:
×5 Havocs
. 4 Autocannons, Flamer and Chainsword

Red Corsairs Vanguard -
HQ:
×1 Huron
×1 Lord Discordant
. Baleflamer, Mark of Tzeentch
. Gift of Chaos - Gorget of Hate
. Aspiring Lord - Unholy Fortitude

Elites:
×6 Terminators
. 2 Combi-Melta, 2 Power Fist
. 2 Combi-Flamer, 1 Power Fist, 1 Chainfist
. 2 Accursed Weapons
. Combi-Plasma, Trophies - Black Mace
. Mark of Tzeentch or Nurgle
×10 Possessed
. Trophies - Black Rune
×1 Master of Executions
. Gift of Chaos - Ul'o'cca The Black
. Aspiring Lord - Gaze of the Gods

Theme for this list is simple. Cultists, Cypher, and Havocs stay back (along with Huron or Master of Executions depending on what I think would be best to send forward vs keep against deep strikers). Worldclaimer and Raptors, Possessed, Discordant, Terminators, and one (or both) Red Corsairs characters run as quick as possible to get into melee. As I said, it's a SUPER rough draft and I really want to get a Master of Possessions in the list, but definitely no room for that. I originally wanted to try to make the Red Corsairs as the main Battalion, however I couldn't as I didn't actually have enough CORE dudes to go for putting the Cultists there to run the Black Legion as an Outrider. Terrible shame, really. Definitely want some thoughts on this though.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Also put together a SUPER rough draft for a list from glancing the codex and Battlescribe to make sure there's no errors. Whelp, let's begin. Since there's no Super Doctrines I don't feel hampered to not stick to one Legion, so I'm going Black Legion Battalion and Red Corsairs Vanguard.

...

Theme for this list is simple. Cultists, Cypher, and Havocs stay back (along with Huron or Master of Executions depending on what I think would be best to send forward vs keep against deep strikers). Worldclaimer and Raptors, Possessed, Discordant, Terminators, and one (or both) Red Corsairs characters run as quick as possible to get into melee. As I said, it's a SUPER rough draft and I really want to get a Master of Possessions in the list, but definitely no room for that. I originally wanted to try to make the Red Corsairs as the main Battalion, however I couldn't as I didn't actually have enough CORE dudes to go for putting the Cultists there to run the Black Legion as an Outrider. Terrible shame, really. Definitely want some thoughts on this though.

Hmm, interesting list! You can drop the Havocs if you want to add a master of possession. Honestly, I am not sure if one squad of Havocs will accomplish all that much. Satistically, it can't even destroy a Rhino transport. Might as well drop the anti-tank to go full out melee. Just my opinion!

True. However there's only room for 2 HQs in the Red Corsair Vanguard, and Huron seems pretty efficient for the points running with the Terminators. The Havocs were a quick "lemme throw 8 almost autohit Autocannon shots at a unit". Sometimes you don't need to destroy, you just need to degrade.

Current idea for an Emperor's Children Chaos Lord is the following. Sublime Duelist Warlord Trait, Slaanesh Daemon Weapon, and Thunderhammer.

This is an average of eight attacks hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, getting additional attacks on 6s, and wounding most targets on 3 at worse. I primarily fight Tau (and a Tau player who uses lots of Battlesuits) so anyway to deal with those is appreciated.

 blood reaper wrote:
Current idea for an Emperor's Children Chaos Lord is the following. Sublime Duelist Warlord Trait, Slaanesh Daemon Weapon, and Thunderhammer.

This is an average of eight attacks hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, getting additional attacks on 6s, and wounding most targets on 3 at worse. I primarily fight Tau (and a Tau player who uses lots of Battlesuits) so anyway to deal with those is appreciated.

You wouldn't be able to catch the suits in the first place. Emperors Children have a Warlord trait to increase movement and reroll charges don't they?

How are people finding legionnaires in games? On paper I still don't see the value for 90 points. And once you start upgrades it seems to be a big point sync while 10 cultists are 50 points. Maybe if they got marks for free?

 Curze08 wrote:
How are people finding legionnaires in games? On paper I still don't see the value for 90 points. And once you start upgrades it seems to be a big point sync while 10 cultists are 50 points. Maybe if they got marks for free?

I don't really upgrade mine. Keep them cheap. Maybe at most give the aspiring champion a power fist. No matter what I upgrade them with, elite units are going to do better. I might as well spend more points on elites. But on the other hand, it can be argued that we save points if we just do three units of cultists instead of legionaries and put two units of them into strategic reserve. Then the cultists can come in and do RND, and help score engage on all fronts too. Cultists really do die to a stiff breeze though, while legionaires are much more durable.

The problem is when you face an opponent who does have a unit going for your back field. Legionaries can at least put up a decent fight. Cultists will fold to just about anything. The issue is that since our armies tend to skew towards melee, a lot of our units are trying to move up the board to get into melee. This leaves our back field weak and vulnerable to attack.

Neat vid from Auspex Tactics on wombo combos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pqf9HwVLyE

A lot of it is master of possession stronk, but the terminator repositioning trick is one I hadn't thought of.

 xeen wrote:
I think if you want to use chosen the only “advantage” they have over terminators or possessed is they can ride in a rhino. Kind of like the way people use beserkers.

Honestly, dumping 10 of them out a Land Raider could be quite effective and it's certainly going to draw a lot of fire, which has a value all its own.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 xeen wrote:
I think if you want to use chosen the only “advantage” they have over terminators or possessed is they can ride in a rhino. Kind of like the way people use beserkers.

Honestly, dumping 10 of them out a Land Raider could be quite effective and it's certainly going to draw a lot of fire, which has a value all its own.

Or you can dump 5 Terminators or 10 Possessed.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Or you can dump 5 Terminators or 10 Possessed.

For sure, although I'm a bit more comfortable with Terminators marching up field in cover with MoP and/or Apostle support or coming in on deep strike.

Possessed is probably a better choice as a straight beatstick unit, but they aren't core, so they can't get marks or benefit from icons beyond the attrition benefits. Additionally, since they're not core they can't benefit from most Prayers (if any). Core is also one of the reasons I think there's some value in Helbrutes.

Honestly, I don't have a particularly strong opinion either way given my lack of hard performance data, but I could see solid arguments either way.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 Curze08 wrote:
How are people finding legionnaires in games? On paper I still don't see the value for 90 points. And once you start upgrades it seems to be a big point sync while 10 cultists are 50 points. Maybe if they got marks for free?

I don't really upgrade mine. Keep them cheap. Maybe at most give the aspiring champion a power fist. No matter what I upgrade them with, elite units are going to do better. I might as well spend more points on elites. But on the other hand, it can be argued that we save points if we just do three units of cultists instead of legionaries and put two units of them into strategic reserve. Then the cultists can come in and do RND, and help score engage on all fronts too. Cultists really do die to a stiff breeze though, while legionaires are much more durable.

The problem is when you face an opponent who does have a unit going for your back field. Legionaries can at least put up a decent fight. Cultists will fold to just about anything. The issue is that since our armies tend to skew towards melee, a lot of our units are trying to move up the board to get into melee. This leaves our back field weak and vulnerable to attack.

I think of legionaries as a T4 W10 obsec psyker unit for 110 pts, or 125 with a mark, which isnt bad. I dont plan any upgrades. Rubrics are far better for 120 points, but they lack obsec.

EightFoldPath wrote:
For anyone who is new to tactica thread's and is confused by the Daedalus posts, he has two character traits:
Off the cuff, confident rules statements which are wrong - e.g. number of combi-flamers in a terminator unit. I'm sure he has admitted in the past he rushes to post things rather than check.
A pathological need to be contrarion and non-orthodox, and to try to find the hidden gem that everyone else has overlooked whether it exists or not - e.g. Chosen, Helbrutes and also see his body of work in the TS thread regarding Scarab Occult. Given how early we are in the release of the codex, experimentation is good and it doesn't drastically hurt to have someone throwing ideas against the wall. But just be mindful that he will avoid talking about the best units in the book.

My current thinking is that Terminators and Possessed both stand out as much more efficient than the other similar options.

I think you can over equip the Terminators though.

My own off the cuff hot take - 10 Cultists are much better than 5 Legionaries by savings you 40 points, so if you have the terminators/bikers/raptors to not take them, you won't.

 p5freak wrote:
Whats so great about the VC ? It can hardly hide, has a big base, and cant move through ruins, spawns can hide, and move through ruins.

It has speed, meaningful shooting and meaningful melee. So very efficient for points, it should probably be 120 not 105. DG's Myphytic Blight Hauler started at 140 and has only just made it to 120 eighteen months later. Although I think you could argue that MBH (and FBD) are both overcosted at 120 compared to the top factions, and maybe they should be 105, not sure on that, we will need to see a lot more games.

Yes, amazingly people make mistakes. You'll have to forgive me as I was in battlescribe and playing with plasma.

My "pathological need to be contrarion" was highlighting the difference as I saw them and my decisions will be couched in what models I have ( which I noted in a previous post that I won't have a ton of terminators for a while ). Is there something wrong with that?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xeen wrote:
I think if you want to use chosen the only “advantage” they have over terminators or possessed is they can ride in a rhino. Kind of like the way people use beserkers.

I have a mental block to losing W3 models when the transport explodes.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yes, amazingly people make mistakes. You'll have to forgive me as I was in battlescribe and playing with plasma.

My "pathological need to be contrarion" was highlighting the difference as I saw them and my decisions will be couched in what models I have ( which I noted in a previous post that I won't have a ton of terminators for a while ). Is there something wrong with that?

You're a bad person who should feel bad. /s

You do white knight a bit, which can be mildly grating at times.

At the same time, I think there's value in exploring less than obvious choices. There is at least value in discussing the possibilities of those options since the WAAC crowd is unlikely to provide any hard data by using them in a competitive environment. Consequently, casual data, conjecture, and theory crafting is all that's available.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Until they change it so Warpflamers don't get the bonus from Let the Galaxy Burn...

Almost like they didn't think the codex through very much......
Still waiting for that scathing review LOL

I don't think it's as crazy as one might think. There's no infernal master or pyric flux available. They lose their +1 to cast, invulnerable and -1D so in the right situations they're vulnerable. And you won't be forcing through a warp time with cabal.

35 flamer shots at S5 v T5 get 17.5 wounds ( I'm going to ignore that the WFP is lower S )
55 S4 get 18 wounds

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
You do white knight a bit, which can be mildly grating at times.

If I wasn't grating then you guys would get bored more quickly!

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think it's as crazy as one might think.

I'm afraid, that I just don't have your confidence in the fools who wrote this book.

I do not believe they thought for a second how Warpflamers would interact with Let The Galaxy Burn. I doubt it even entered their minds when they mercilessly ripped our Cult units out of our book.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think it's as crazy as one might think.

I'm afraid, that I just don't have your confidence in the fools who wrote this book.

I do not believe they thought for a second how Warpflamers would interact with Let The Galaxy Burn. I doubt it even entered their minds when they mercilessly ripped our Cult units out of our book.

I do think p5 is right in that we'll see lists with gobs of them ( though the book seems to have enough variety that it won't become THE build ) and they're going to be strong in a glass-hammery sort of way.

What will be weird is if they are well and truly busted...how is GW going to balance them when they're pointed and printed separately? By not including the sheet in the book they made it easier, but lost some control. They could strip the +2 from Rubrics, but that could kill them in CSM.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insularum wrote:
Neat vid from Auspex Tactics on wombo combos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pqf9HwVLyE

A lot of it is master of possession stronk, but the terminator repositioning trick is one I hadn't thought of.

In response to his thought about it getting FAQ'd - TS have been doing this for a while so I expect it sticks around.

 p5freak wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 Curze08 wrote:
How are people finding legionnaires in games? On paper I still don't see the value for 90 points. And once you start upgrades it seems to be a big point sync while 10 cultists are 50 points. Maybe if they got marks for free?

I don't really upgrade mine. Keep them cheap. Maybe at most give the aspiring champion a power fist. No matter what I upgrade them with, elite units are going to do better. I might as well spend more points on elites. But on the other hand, it can be argued that we save points if we just do three units of cultists instead of legionaries and put two units of them into strategic reserve. Then the cultists can come in and do RND, and help score engage on all fronts too. Cultists really do die to a stiff breeze though, while legionaires are much more durable.

The problem is when you face an opponent who does have a unit going for your back field. Legionaries can at least put up a decent fight. Cultists will fold to just about anything. The issue is that since our armies tend to skew towards melee, a lot of our units are trying to move up the board to get into melee. This leaves our back field weak and vulnerable to attack.

I think of legionaries as a T4 W10 obsec psyker unit for 110 pts, or 125 with a mark, which isnt bad. I dont plan any upgrades. Rubrics are far better for 120 points, but they lack obsec.

You don't need Objective Secured if your opponent's units are dead. That's why I think Red Corsairs are vastly being overlooked in terms of even just killing the opponent's Objective Secured models and being able to outhold them.

I know i dont need obsec, but its nice to have. Even without LTGB and without warpflamers rubrics are still a good choice.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Until they change it so Warpflamers don't get the bonus from Let the Galaxy Burn...

Almost like they didn't think the codex through very much......
Still waiting for that scathing review LOL

I don't think it's as crazy as one might think. There's no infernal master or pyric flux available. They lose their +1 to cast, invulnerable and -1D so in the right situations they're vulnerable. And you won't be forcing through a warp time with cabal.

35 flamer shots at S5 v T5 get 17.5 wounds ( I'm going to ignore that the WFP is lower S )
55 S4 get 18 wounds

Pretty sure Rubics keeps their All is Dust rule (the -1 AP for 1D). But, yeah they lose their +1 to cast and invulnerable due to being locked into the TS legion.

Still, not a bad unit in a CSM list and with the ICON, even the regular bolters/cannon has some play too, along with their flamers.

 whembly wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Until they change it so Warpflamers don't get the bonus from Let the Galaxy Burn...

Almost like they didn't think the codex through very much......
Still waiting for that scathing review LOL

I don't think it's as crazy as one might think. There's no infernal master or pyric flux available. They lose their +1 to cast, invulnerable and -1D so in the right situations they're vulnerable. And you won't be forcing through a warp time with cabal.

35 flamer shots at S5 v T5 get 17.5 wounds ( I'm going to ignore that the WFP is lower S )
55 S4 get 18 wounds

Pretty sure Rubics keeps their All is Dust rule (the -1 AP for 1D). But, yeah they lose their +1 to cast and invulnerable due to being locked into the TS legion.

Still, not a bad unit in a CSM list and with the ICON, even the regular bolters/cannon has some play too, along with their flamers.

I don't think the 5++ is a big deal due to AoC existing. You'd only get it against some random AP-4 weapon shooting at your Rubrics, and at minimum the MoT rules of gonna save at least one of them from Plasma.