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 Thairne wrote:
COuld you guys please not derail the thread into the copyright argument?

Why not? It's far more interesting than yet another round of gold marine players being salty about their army only being marines +1 instead of marines +10.

CadianSgtBob wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
COuld you guys please not derail the thread into the copyright argument?

Why not? It's far more interesting than yet another round of gold marine players being salty about their army only being marines +1 instead of marines +10.

I think this is the best example so far how you are absolutely not interested in having an honest discussion, fething obnoxious. How about you go troll somewhere else since you can't come up with a logically coherent argument for the original discussion.

CadianSgtBob wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
COuld you guys please not derail the thread into the copyright argument?

Why not? It's far more interesting than yet another round of gold marine players being salty about their army only being marines +1 instead of marines +10.

If that's so interesting for you just open your own thread about that. It's easier than making a 40k army list using points .


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Salt donkey wrote:
Just so everyone is clear, most custodes stuff is garbage now. According to Jack Harpster and Richard Seigler, what keeps the codex going is purely restricted to contempter dreads (they’re surprising good apparently) both flavors of grav tanks, and bike captains. There a few fine stuff like Trajann,shield guard, and the other dreads, but the rest of the book is trash. Pretty much any foot captain is trash at this point, as are terminators, Sagitarum, wardens, both flyers, regular bikes , you get the idea. In other words GW nerfed the main codex to oblivion, but left enough to make sure a good list still existed. That way they can say “there’s no issues with custodes, look at their win rates” because competitive players will most frequently take the best list a book offers.

Outside ultra competitive gaming they still look pretty solid to me. And at tournaments several factions are competitive only if they take a few selected items. Including factions (cough... orks.... coughs) with way more units and options that custodes.

So even Auspect Tactics has them sitting in the 3rd tier of Top Tier Armies. Basically the A- category?

I don't think they are in a bad shape, but they are no longer what I enjoyed when I started. I liked the simplicity of not having to worry about entire phases like Psychic phase. Just get in close and punch REALLY HARD. Now the are a much more advanced army, which I don't have the time to play these days. Being 40+ sucks now....

More like B.
Usually goes like S, A, B, C, D.
Though his point is that there's basically only A-Tier, but... thats just a different name for the same thing.

All I'm saying is that we are still "top Tier". We are capable of placing well, or at least winning games. I don't play competitive. Point is, we are far from broken crap. I just think it's not the faction I originally purchased to play.

Which is the point of the thread.
I dont really care about WR%, unless its like WIDELY different from the norm in both directions because that implies balance issues.
I want my fluffy, fun army to play like it did a good while ago when I decided to play that army for that reason.
But accordint to some posters here that is a cardinal sin, it seems like.

Not a cardinal sin... But an imposibility inbthe burn and churn 9th 40K landscape... Which other army has remain its zelgeist in the last 4/5 years.

Pretty much all codexes are still fluffy... except maybe admech because its so complicated and custodes. Though I admittedly know most about them since I play them.
I think most other factions still retained their faction identity to the most part and fluffy codexes like Nids do exist in the majority.

That's just it, Custodes really had no strong "identity" prior to 9th. They were just Hyper Elite Astartes. Now they are Space Kung Fu masters in Battle Plate that wield weapons forged by god science, which surprisingly are less impactful than a piece of concrete attached to some rebar swung by a 4 armed mutant Cultist.

 Thairne wrote:
I want my fluffy, funny army to play like it did a good while ago when I decided to play that army for that reason.

Why do you want gold marines to be a joke faction? I thought you liked their fluff?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
That's just it, Custodes really had no strong "identity" prior to 9th. They were just Hyper Elite Astartes. Now they are Space Kung Fu masters in Battle Plate that wield weapons forged by god science, which surprisingly are less impactful than a piece of concrete attached to some rebar swung by a 4 armed mutant Cultist.

Abominants got strong genes, man.

Hecaton wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
That's just it, Custodes really had no strong "identity" prior to 9th. They were just Hyper Elite Astartes. Now they are Space Kung Fu masters in Battle Plate that wield weapons forged by god science, which surprisingly are less impactful than a piece of concrete attached to some rebar swung by a 4 armed mutant Cultist.

Abominants got strong genes, man.

That's because they steal them, right?

 Blackie wrote:

CadianSgtBob wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
COuld you guys please not derail the thread into the copyright argument?

Why not? It's far more interesting than yet another round of gold marine players being salty about their army only being marines +1 instead of marines +10.

If that's so interesting for you just open your own thread about that. It's easier than making a 40k army list using points .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Salt donkey wrote:
Just so everyone is clear, most custodes stuff is garbage now. According to Jack Harpster and Richard Seigler, what keeps the codex going is purely restricted to contempter dreads (they’re surprising good apparently) both flavors of grav tanks, and bike captains. There a few fine stuff like Trajann,shield guard, and the other dreads, but the rest of the book is trash. Pretty much any foot captain is trash at this point, as are terminators, Sagitarum, wardens, both flyers, regular bikes , you get the idea. In other words GW nerfed the main codex to oblivion, but left enough to make sure a good list still existed. That way they can say “there’s no issues with custodes, look at their win rates” because competitive players will most frequently take the best list a book offers.

Outside ultra competitive gaming they still look pretty solid to me. And at tournaments several factions are competitive only if they take a few selected items. Including factions (cough... orks.... coughs) with way more units and options that custodes.

Apologies for starting the thread derailment. It just shows how underage the users on here are if they believe people abusing a company’s IP is simply “free advertising.”

As far as ultra competitive stuff goes; yeah you’re right, many armies at the top tables are carried by a select few units. However, in custodes case (and orkz as well) the gap between competitive and non competitive units is more massive than pretty much every other army. If I take 500 points of wardens/and or terminators, my list will suck. Not just at the top tables, against anyone who is trying play the game. In my case I normally can beat the people I play consistently (medium competitive friends) with mostly units I like. I got crushed the 2 games I tried to use things like wardens.

Harpster and Seigler made the comment they’d drop custodes to C tier if any of the best units got any type of significant nerf (Callidus going up 30 points was an example they used) C tier is where things like IG and GSC live. If you where to bring in army of purely plastic custodes models, we’d be as bad if not worse than demons. That’s why you see pretty much every custodes player on here complaining. We were sold on a hyper elite melee army. Instead outside of the few months we were OP, the army has only every been an efficient gunline with floating tanks and dreadnoughts. Or one that simply hides until the game clock runs out. Maybe there is no way to make a balanced elite melee army, but GW hasn’t really tried to be successful at it outside of just making the army OP.

^ this.
While my experience with other codexes, as stated is limited, I really think that the Custodes is one of the the worst right now.
It's as deep as a puddle. You have... 7 datasheets that are worth using. Including FW.

Sagittarum
Custodian Guard
Galatus
Achillus
Calladius
Bike Captain
Ven Dread

That is sad. Really sad. And the first two are pretty much tax units at this stage.
Like Salt Donkey said, the gap to everything else is quite significant. Why would I ever use Terminators at this stage? They've got basically nothing going for them. They cant reliably score, they cant play secondaries and, especially with Stand Vigil and Strangehold gone, are an actual liability to take.
Competetive WR% might be fine, but damn, the codex is not FUN to play. It was one of the less fun codexes to begin with, imo, but it took a real nosedive with the nerfs that fethed over the internal balance. It neither feels, nor plays, as Custodes should feel or play. It's a complete failure at this point.

Custodes are now essentially the GK of 8th. Way to overcosted for their very real lack of ability to perform equal to cost. If the 60$ book you sell to be able to play a faction is 90% useless to the player, then it's a failed book. Honestly, in order to win me back it would take too much to even consider.

Changing the rule about one list having one sub faction
Give bikes and non Telemon dreads obsec back
Give us back multiple SC of the same type in one list
Give us back the double shoot strat
Give us back an adequate ammount of CP or a way around the new CP form. We are easily the hungriest pre-game CP faction in the history of Pre-game CP usage. To cut us off at 6 invalidates half our game.
Give axes the ability to do damage not completely invalidated by -1 damage.


And while I'm asking santa for a pony I'll just throw this in: Give us Sisters on bikes!

 Thairne wrote:
Pretty much all codexes are still fluffy... except maybe admech because its so complicated and custodes. Though I admittedly know most about them since I play them.
I think most other factions still retained their faction identity to the most part and fluffy codexes like Nids do exist in the majority.

... boi... then you didn't pay attention to CSM since 4th edition and the recent trainwreck if you honestly believe that.

I really didn't.
I have zero interest in CSM and the codex is so very new the info didn't "spill over" by accident yet.

Basically Chaos lost a zoggin' ton of weapon options (especally for HQ, Termies, and Chosen) and now ironically have more weapon restrictions than loyalists despite the fact the entire faction is about shirking restrictions and laws for.. you know.. chaos?

Chaos Lords and Sorcerers can't have Jetpacks anymore either because GW is being petty about "no model no representation", so have fun playing Night Lords without that particularly important note in their fluff.

Also a few models got squatted like Mutilators and the old Sorcerer unit is now vastly inferior to the newer Master of Possession model. Also cultists are being pushed and got more units, but you aren't able to bring more cultists than heretic astartes units, which is again another restriction on a faction about not having restrictions and indulging oneself in vice, excess, ambition, etc

 Thairne wrote:
^ this.
While my experience with other codexes, as stated is limited, I really think that the Custodes is one of the the worst right now.
It's as deep as a puddle. You have... 7 datasheets that are worth using. Including FW.

Sagittarum
Custodian Guard
Galatus
Achillus
Calladius
Bike Captain
Ven Dread

That is sad. Really sad. And the first two are pretty much tax units at this stage.
Like Salt Donkey said, the gap to everything else is quite significant. Why would I ever use Terminators at this stage? They've got basically nothing going for them. They cant reliably score, they cant play secondaries and, especially with Stand Vigil and Strangehold gone, are an actual liability to take.
Competetive WR% might be fine, but damn, the codex is not FUN to play. It was one of the less fun codexes to begin with, imo, but it took a real nosedive with the nerfs that fethed over the internal balance. It neither feels, nor plays, as Custodes should feel or play. It's a complete failure at this point.

Yes Sagittarum guard... totally a tax unit...i mean, 150pts nets you 3 heavy bolters, 1 Super heavy bolter (Disintegration beam) all at BS3 if you shoot all of them at the same time. Base 2+ save T5, 3 wounds 4+ invuln and de-facto 12 attacks in CC. Compared to a real tax unit, Ork boyz. 150pts nets you 19 boyz at T5 6+ save 1 wound each. No ranged capabilities worth mentioning but in CC they get 57 attacks. plunk them in some cover on an objective and you have a decent fire support unit with 1+ armor.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Give us back an adequate ammount of CP or a way around the new CP form. We are easily the hungriest pre-game CP faction in the history of Pre-game CP usage. To cut us off at 6 invalidates half our game.

That is debatable to say the least. Most Ork lists pre 6CP change were running 2 detachments minimum, including -3CP detachments on a regular basis. On top of that we were spending CP on extra warlord traits and relics like crazy because those were the most efficient use of our CP. It was not at all uncommon to start the game with -3CP from detachment and -4-6 from pre-game strats.

I mean, my most recent GT I ran 3 warbosses in 3 detachments with warlord traits/relics on all of them.

SemperMortis wrote:

Yes Sagittarum guard... totally a tax unit...i mean, 150pts nets you 3 heavy bolters, 1 Super heavy bolter (Disintegration beam) all at BS3 if you shoot all of them at the same time. Base 2+ save T5, 3 wounds 4+ invuln and de-facto 12 attacks in CC. Compared to a real tax unit, Ork boyz. 150pts nets you 19 boyz at T5 6+ save 1 wound each. No ranged capabilities worth mentioning but in CC they get 57 attacks. plunk them in some cover on an objective and you have a decent fire support unit with 1+ armor.

Looking at the lists cropping up, only the absolute minimum of guard and sagittarum is taken.
You may like it or not and they might still be the "best" tax unit, but in the current state of the codex and the meta, Sagittarum aren't appearing in the comp lists.
Look at the goonhammer article. Harpster recommends a list that fields a total of 1x3 Custodian Guard at 2k. I'm not claiming thats the ONLY way to play, but Harpster is leagues better than me, so I tend to follow his advice over some random forumite that tells me how good my sagittarum are.
The general consensus is still "bike captain, Dreads, Calladius".

 Thairne wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Yes Sagittarum guard... totally a tax unit...i mean, 150pts nets you 3 heavy bolters, 1 Super heavy bolter (Disintegration beam) all at BS3 if you shoot all of them at the same time. Base 2+ save T5, 3 wounds 4+ invuln and de-facto 12 attacks in CC. Compared to a real tax unit, Ork boyz. 150pts nets you 19 boyz at T5 6+ save 1 wound each. No ranged capabilities worth mentioning but in CC they get 57 attacks. plunk them in some cover on an objective and you have a decent fire support unit with 1+ armor.

Looking at the lists cropping up, only the absolute minimum of guard and sagittarum is taken.
You may like it or not and they might still be the "best" tax unit, but in the current state of the codex and the meta, Sagittarum aren't appearing in the comp lists.
Look at the goonhammer article. Harpster recommends a list that fields a total of 1x3 Custodian Guard at 2k. I'm not claiming thats the ONLY way to play, but Harpster is leagues better than me, so I tend to follow his advice over some random forumite that tells me how good my sagittarum are.
The general consensus is still "bike captain, Dreads, Calladius".

is that because they are "bad" or a "Tax" or is it because the codex is filled with a bunch of more ridiculous combinations. Yeah, internally they might not be as good as other units but they are absolutely good. I'd take those in a heart beat over my meganobz which cost similar points when given shooting weapons.

The codex is down to its last legs. All build diversity has been patched out of it.
I think it was Siegler that said that, if the codex gets ANY nerfs to its currently used units, they're down to C-tier.

Sags honestly look nice on paper, but...they don't really do that much in practice in the current meta. In a narrative thats different, but even then, they do only deal with 2-3 MEQ per turn, means even if they shoot basically their ideal target, uninterrupted at 36" range, they'll have trouble making their points back by the end of the game
They'll get 3 MEQ if in Disintegrator range.
Its still basically 50 pts for a heavy bolter and a 2+/4++ really isn't cutting it anymore, even if in cover.
In my matched games, they mostly do nothing as they're unable to deal with hordes and unable to deal with monsters or vehicles. The only thing they kinda can deal with is elite infantry and are still pretty inefficient at that.
You get better shooting and melee out of other units.

So no, they are not outshone by ridiculous combinations, they're simply not up to the current meta for their cost imo.

"a 2+/4++ isn't cutting it anymore"
What is even happening in 40k anymore

 Blndmage wrote:
Do folks play pure Sisters of Silence?

I'm super into the idea. They remind me of Pariahs. Also really intrigued by their stats. Making lists is frustrating with things only being in 3PL chunks. For larger games (here 25PL is a big game, most are 6-12PL), I'm considering rhinos.

Modelwise, they cost a fortune and finding appropriately kick-ass third party models is hard.

This would be my first imperial army in... yikes almost 20yrs of playing.

I have never once seen a pure sisters of silence army ever, simply because they just dont have the supporting units to do it. They seem to only work as a unit that is designed for its one specific task, to counter psykers thats really it.


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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"a 2+/4++ isn't cutting it anymore"
What is even happening in 40k anymore

Because i harp on it always

 Thairne wrote:
The codex is down to its last legs. All build diversity has been patched out of it.
I think it was Siegler that said that, if the codex gets ANY nerfs to its currently used units, they're down to C-tier.

Yeah...no. Custards this last weekend pulled in 3 more top placements, orkz pulled in 1. Nidz Eldar and Tau are the current flavor of the month armies but Custards are still easily mid tier. If you include the aforementioned top 3, only 5 armies had more placings then Custards did.

I do agree that diversity is dead for Custards...but umm...you never had any to begin with. You have 8 HQ choices with 3 of them just being Shield Captains in different forms. You guys are in the same boat as Harlequins, you are a relatively new splinter army without the massive amounts of time needed to build up a stupidly huge army list.

 Thairne wrote:
Sags honestly look nice on paper, but...they don't really do that much in practice in the current meta. In a narrative thats different, but even then, they do only deal with 2-3 MEQ per turn, means even if they shoot basically their ideal target, uninterrupted at 36" range, they'll have trouble making their points back by the end of the game
They'll get 3 MEQ if in Disintegrator range.

3 sags at max range shooting get 9 shots, 7.5 hits, 5 wounds and 1.6 dead Marines a turn. Their weapons are assault though so there isn't any good reason not to Move/advance with them since they can only get -1 to shoot so at worst they will be hitting on 3s. That effectively gives them 6+D6 movement every turn, not bad for a unit you consider a tax unit with 2+4++ In Beam range they increase from 1.6 dead Marines a turn to 2.5ish so yeah 2-3 dead Marines a turn. So 40-60pts a turn against intercessor Marines, that works out to 120-180 over 3 turns, so yes they can make their points back relatively easily. And if you get the opportunity to plink more expensive models its even better. But you have to remember, these guys aren't a dmg dealer unit, they are a TROOP CHOICE with HEAVY BOLTER weapons and insane durability. Because again, T5, 3 Wounds, 2+ 4++ is pretty damn good for a 50pt model. An Ork Deffkopta is the same price, its noticeably faster with 14' movement, its primary weapon is 2D3 rokkitz which work out to 0.5 Dead Marines a turn. So a 150pts of them (3) will get 1.6 Dead Marines a turn. 12 shots, 4 hits, 3.3 wounds and 1.66 dead Marines. In CC the deffkopta gets 6 attacks at S5 -1AP 1dmg. So in CC The Sag get 12 attacks, 10 hits, 6.6 wounds and against Marines thats 3.3 dmg. The Koptas are 18 attacks, 12 hits, 8 wounds and 2.6 wounds.

So the "tax" unit as you call them are slower then Koptas but better at ranged combat and Close combat then those same koptas. Durability wise.... The koptas have 4 wounds each so 12 wounds to the Sag's 9, but they only have a 4+ save and no invuln compared to the Sags 2+ and 4++. With standard bolters it takes 81 bolter shots to kill 3 Sag guard. 243 shots, 162 hits, 54 wounds and 9 dmg. To kill 3 Koptas with bolters takes 108 shots. 108 shots, 72 hits, 24 wounds and 12dmg. So more then twice as durable vs small arms. What about vs over charged plasma? Sag take 27 shots to kill. 27 shots, 18 hits, 12 wounds, 6 unsaved for 3 dead. Koptas? ready for this... 13.5shots. 13.5 shots, 9 hits, 6 wounds 3 dead Koptas.

And finally, i'll point out that the Koptas are considered one of the BEST units in the entire ork codex.

 Thairne wrote:
Its still basically 50 pts for a heavy bolter and a 2+/4++ really isn't cutting it anymore, even if in cover.
In my matched games, they mostly do nothing as they're unable to deal with hordes and unable to deal with monsters or vehicles. The only thing they kinda can deal with is elite infantry and are still pretty inefficient at that.
You get better shooting and melee out of other units.
So no, they are not outshone by ridiculous combinations, they're simply not up to the current meta for their cost imo.

I'm sorry, when are you running into Hordes? in the meta no horde has placed...christ I think since the edition started. Monsters/vehicles? That just isnt true. Against a T7 3+ vehicle a unt of Sag guard AVERAGE 3.6 damage without any buffs. My ranged combat troop choice at 160pts get 40 shots (60 at half range) 13.3 hits (20), 4.4 wounds (6.6) and 1.46 damage (2.2) And realistically, I'm not getting 20 shoota boys into 9' range of a tank.

But your second to last sentence is the best one and the point you tried to deny from the outset

You get better shooting and melee out of other units.

so again, it isn't that they aren't good, its that custards have better tools for everything else because reasons.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"a 2+/4++ isn't cutting it anymore"
What is even happening in 40k anymore

Fethloads of creep.
I mean look at LRBTs. Those things effectively have a 2+/4++ at T8 - but even better since they dont even care about ap-1 and save ap-2 on 3s.
And that still isnt enough to bring guard even close to being viable.
Stat inflation and especially damage creep is the entire cause of this thread in the first place.

Alright. You seem to now better than Siegler, Harpster and all the other top players. Or the developing stats. I get it. You go play your Sags and tell me how it went. But I have a feeling you're just mathhammering stuff, ignoring reality. Go ahead.
But lets see..

The Alpine Grand Tournament
The Geelong Town Open
The Summer is Coming GT
Exterminatus V: Domocalypse
Leodis Games GT
Clan Wars Scottish Open

One 4th place in 6 GTs. And that list ran... ONE unit of Sagittarum. God those powerhouses! So "pretty good" that they'll be totally phased out in Nephilim because they don't pull their weight.
Also I happen to play against tyranids. Have you ever tried to disloge 30 gaunts from an objective with 3 heavy bolters? Or tried to kill 2+ T8 17W monster with 3dmg a turn? That is shortly before a winged hive tyrant DSes or flies in and simply deletes that unit,.
They're never pull their weight. They're a hindrance. Not taking Sagittarum is a benefit.
"But mah kopters!" I dont care. I don't know gak about orks either. That doesnt change that Sagittarum are a tax. You might as well tell me "but servitors deal so and so much dmg for so and so pts, your sagittarum beat that!"
So what? They're not the worst unit in the game. But they do nothing the codex needs in its current state, therefore being a tax unit to be able to run a detachment.

Lets see what Harpster drew up for Nephilim.

Emperor’s Chosen Patrol Detachment

HQ: Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike – Superior Creation, Auric Exemplar, Castellan’s Mark, Tip of the Spear, Salvo Launcher, Misericordia

Troops: 3 Custodian Guard – 1x Shield

FA: Pallas Grav-Attack
FA: Pallas Grav-Attack

HS: Caladius – Twin Iliastus Accelerator
HS: Caladius – Twin Iliastus Accelerator

Emperor’s Chosen Vanguard Detachment
Trajann Valoris – Warlord, Master of Martial Strategy, Champion of the Imperium

EL: Contemptor-Achillus – Lastrum Bolters
EL: Venerable Contemptor – Multi-Melta
EL: Venerable Contemptor – Multi-Melta
EL: Venerable Contemptor – Multi-Melta
EL: 5 Voidsmen-at-Arms

HS: Caladius – Twin Iliastus Accelerator

Do you notice something? I dont see a single Sagittarum unit in there and only ONE unit of troops. Because he tried to minimize the tax units. And went away from bikes and the special dreads since their price hike/survivability nerf.

You believe what you believe. I know what I know.

Well, that and weapons/abilities that completely ignore all invulns made MW spam basically the basic game in town. What good is a 2+4++4+++ if you opponent can just delete your units? It's not even MWs now. There are just guns that shoot pure F U and suddenly your tank isn't there anymore. Like what good is paying a double cost premium if your units can be deleted by another unit worth half as much? This is the main issue with 9ths power creep. Melta Marines came out and Armor saves were suddenly irrelevent. The "Ignores Invuln" rule started appearing everywhere, and suddenly invulns were irrelevant. Custodes are basically forced now into EC only lists, because the 4+++ is the only thing keeping us alive long enough to earn points back.

 Thairne wrote:

I mean look at LRBTs. Those things effectively have a 2+/4++ at T8 - but even better since they dont even care about ap-1 and save ap-2 on 3s.
And that still isnt enough to bring guard even close to being viable.

??? Did I miss something? since when do LRBTs have a 4++?
Or do you mean that due to AoC they save on a 4+ against AP-3 and imply that there is nothing relevant above AP-3?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Well, that and weapons/abilities that completely ignore all invulns made MW spam basically the basic game in town. What good is a 2+4++4+++ if you opponent can just delete your units? It's not even MWs now. There are just guns that shoot pure F U and suddenly your tank isn't there anymore. Like what good is paying a double cost premium if your units can be deleted by another unit worth half as much? This is the main issue with 9ths power creep. Melta Marines came out and Armor saves were suddenly irrelevent. The "Ignores Invuln" rule started appearing everywhere, and suddenly invulns were irrelevant. Custodes are basically forced now into EC only lists, because the 4+++ is the only thing keeping us alive long enough to earn points back.

What 75pts unit is currently 1 shotting a unit of 3 Sag Guard? I get that you were using exaggeration here but seriously? what unit that is cheaper than Sag Guard is currently 1 shotting it with ease?

As far as Mortal wound spam? yeah, most ork lists are being FORCED to move into Mortal wound spam because 2+4++ is too hard for us to deal with with most of our weapons. To kill 1 Sag guard with shootas takes 81 Shoota boyz, or 54 in Half Range. That is 432-646pts of Shoota boys to kill 50pts of Sag Guard. Not exactly..umm...Feasible. On the flipside, a couple units of Squig Riders and Kommandos can each put out D3 mortal wounds with Bomb Squigs. On the average 1st turn if I'm lucky I can get 6D3 Mortal wounds on you from Bomb Squigs.

This boils down to the old SM argument of Durability vs Damage. As durability increases, damage does as well. And in the case of durability specifically, as durability outstrips normal dmg output, players will have to find a better way to inflict dmg. So if other options were more appealing they would be used, but nobody wants to spend 10 minutes rolling hundreds of dice just to kill 1 Sag Guard.