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FarseerReborn wrote:
Guys, now that the IK codex is out, is there any use for "our" Wraithknight?

Love the model, but it seems utterly useless to me

Consider it a nice action figure in your cabinet until it drops 100 points.

Bharring wrote:
Fire Prism/Night Spinner use the same main body for their turret, so you'd need to:
-Get reeeely good at magnitizing (too much specificity here for it to be worth it, IMO)
-Find someone with leftover bits
-Buy 2 boxes

Wouldn't 1 box suffice?

No it wouldn't, you don't get the falcon turret bits if you buy the fire prism/ night spinner box.

There's also the FireStorm and Warp Hunter that use the same chasis. The Warp Hunter has a gun that is very distinctive, but the Firestorm is basically a triple-linked Scatter Laser on a turret with full vertical articulation (think anti-air: the CWE version of a Stalker). Making a Firestorm turret shouldn't be hard, and should be a lot of fun (rules, though, ...).

Yes definitely don't throw away your Nightspinner bits, last edition they were much better than Fire Prisms, could devastate a lot of AV targets when used in a squad of 3.

I've built up my Grav Tank fleet across 5 editions, and every type has been powerful at some point. Between kit purchases and Ebay guns/turrets gathering, I can put at least 3 of any variant on the table, and a total of 9 hulls.

Don't let current rules be an excuse to ignore the other variants when building a new kit. Magnetize turrets and weapons, or some other system of interchangeability. Your future self will thank you.

Bharring wrote:
There's also the FireStorm and Warp Hunter that use the same chasis. The Warp Hunter has a gun that is very distinctive, but the Firestorm is basically a triple-linked Scatter Laser on a turret with full vertical articulation (think anti-air: the CWE version of a Stalker). Making a Firestorm turret shouldn't be hard, and should be a lot of fun (rules, though, ...).

Warp hunter and Firestorm are from FW and you can find they rules on IA: Xenos ( Firestorm comes without points in latest Faq)

So, to cut a long story short I'm planning to troll, in a friendly way of course, my friend who plays a defensive Imperial guard gunline with my Eldar army. He's playing his chaos marines in our next game so I'm trying to create the best approximation of a guard list I can with what I've got.
My question is am I crazy to use the Iyanden trait over the Alaitoc version? I've treid to make my heavy units as survivable as possible and I'm thinking that keeping them as fully functional as possible with Iyanden trait is worth taking the extra hits that I'd avoid with Alaitoc. The asterisks show models starting in transports, the characters may not start in them if I can hide them well enough with the terrain.

HQ's

Altansar battalion (Iyanden)

Farseer [warlord] with singing spear PTS: 105 *
Powers: Smite, Doom, Executioner
Trait: Seer of the shifting vector
Faolchu's wing

Spirit seer PTS: 65 ***
Powers: Smite, Enhance/Drain
Asurman PTS: 175 *

Troops

2 x 5 Dire avengers, exarch has two catapults PTS: 128 *
1 x 5 Rangers PTS: 60

Transport

1 x Wave serpent, twin shuriken cannons, twin shuriken catapults, spirit stones PTS: 137 *

Heavy support

1 x Wraithlord, two Aeldari missile launchers, two shuriken catapults, ghost glaive PTS: 163
1 x Falcon, pulse laser, Aeldari missile launcher, twin shuriken catapults, spirit stones PTS: 165 **
1 x Falcon, pulse laser, Aeldari missile launcher, twin shuriken catapults, spirit stones PTS: 165 ***

Altansar battalion [Iyanden]

HQ's

Maugan Ra PTS: 140 ***
Warlock with wraith blade PTS: 55
Powers: Smite, Protect/jinx

Troops

3x Dire avengers, exarch has two catapults PTS: 192

Heavy support

1 x 5 Darkreapers, exarch has Aeldari missile launcher PTS: 173 **
1 x 3 Darkreapers, exarch has Aeldari missile launchers PTS: 105 ***
1 x Fire prism, spirit stones PTS: 170

CP's: 13

Total 1998 pts

Is there anything Eldar Craftworlds can do now vs an optimized full Imperial Knights list?

FarseerReborn wrote:
Is there anything Eldar Craftworlds can do now vs an optimized full Imperial Knights list?

Knights have no strong answer to Alaitoc shooty lists (aside from House Mortan who can ignore it on 1 unit for 1 CP). It'll simply be a matter of gunning down individual targets one at a time using distributed firepower and psychic support, while outscoring them on objectives using Ranger squads.

Jinx/Doom are your friends to take down the nastiest target each turn. Fliers, Fire Prisms and Mortal Wounds will be your most useful tools to whittle them down. Maybe a Shining Spear Squad to intercept those Armigers as they charge in. I think the most important thing will be target priority. E.g. Is it really necessary to keep pounding away at the enemies warlord with a 3++, when the other knights are all only 5++?

Probably not a common thing in every Eldar players collection, but a Scorpion is a horrifying prospect for a Knight player to face. Massive single target damage, averages about 23 wounds on a big Knight before you even start stacking any buffs. Mine is certainly relishing the opportunity for more LOW kill rings.

FarseerReborn wrote:
Is there anything Eldar Craftworlds can do now vs an optimized full Imperial Knights list?

Tough call, Knights are new and shiny which means their optimal tactics are not fully understood yet and so nor are the counters.

Some food for thought. You are going to be facing a full army of T7/8 models with a 5++ (or better) vs shooting. That instantly puts our stock weapons like Brightlances in a bad spot as they are only S8 but their AP-4 is wasted vs knight. Dark Reapers will do work as they put out cheaper S8 shooting and the AP-2 is as good as you will get against Knight anyway.

Doom will be very important against such a tough army, as will Jinx to help get damage past their saves. Knight have no psychic defenses to speak of so your psykers should have a field day. Each model is expensive so powers that target enemy units will be disproportionately effective. Another tactic you can try is spamming Mortal wounds. Smite is a good start but Mind War is even better if you can stack your modifiers. Put Swooping Hawks near your Farseer for +1Ld and then put a Hemlock Wraithfighter near your target to nerf its Ld. For nastiness, bring some allied Harlequins for even more Ld shenanigans. It is possible to get a +4 or +5 bonus on Mind War before you even roll the dice.

Knights are very CP-hungry so many players are planning to bring an allied Guard Battalion to help generate CPs. This means that at least you will have some valid targets for your anti-infantry guns.

Weight of fire is important. Knights now have stratagems like "Machine Spirit Resurgent", as well as rerolling hits vs flyers to make sure that even a damaged Knight can still do reasonable damage. Go for the kill rather than spreading damage across multiple targets where possible.

Wave Serpents and War walkers make good heavy weapons platforms against Knight. IKs have lots of 2D or D3 damage weapons meaning Wave Serpent shields will soak up a lot of damage for you. Plasma Decimators and other high AP weapons will be wasted against the 5++ save of War walkers.

Trying to tackle any Knights apart from Helverins in close combat is risky as even non-CC Knights like Crusaders and Dominus hit as hard as 3-4 Battlecannons with their Titanic Feet. Put your infantry in ruins where possible as Knights cannot enter these. It may be a bit cheesy but RAW, that is how it stands.

Wraithlords with Glaives are cheap and have enough punch to do serious damage to an IK in CC as they will be wounding on 3s, and doing D6 damage per hit that bypasses their Ion Shields. Just be aware that this may well be a suicide attack as if the Knight survives, the Wraithlord will likely be toast and even if the Knight dies, his buddies will probably kill the WL for its temerity. Still, you can run 3 WLs for the price of even the cheapest Questoris Knight so it is worth considering.

A big unit of Wraithguard in the Webway can be useful. On average, they will do 10 points of damage in a single shooting phase but this can be boosted with Guide and/or Doom. So if supported they can wipe out an Armiger in one volley or finish off a larger Knight if it is already damaged.

Beyond that, play the Objectives. Knights are armies of just a few powerful units. If you can burrow deep in cover and sit on objectives, they may find it hard to dig you out. Hardly heroic but there are many paths to Victory.

Does the Webway Gate block characters from being targeted like other units do?

 dan2026 wrote:
Does the Webway Gate block characters from being targeted like other units do?

I don't see why it wouldn't. If you take it in your list, it is considered and "enemy unit" for you opponent. If it is closer than the character, the WWG would therefore be the closest enemy to you opponent's units.

-

 Galef wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Does the Webway Gate block characters from being targeted like other units do?

I don't see why it wouldn't. If you take it in your list, it is considered and "enemy unit" for you opponent. If it is closer than the character, the WWG would therefore be the closest enemy to you opponent's units.

-

That's what I thought as well.

 dan2026 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Does the Webway Gate block characters from being targeted like other units do?

I don't see why it wouldn't. If you take it in your list, it is considered and "enemy unit" for you opponent. If it is closer than the character, the WWG would therefore be the closest enemy to you opponent's units.

-

That's what I thought as well.

It doesn't count as a fortification, does it?

 Kharneth wrote:

It doesn't count as a fortification, does it?

It does, but it's still "your" unit

 Galef wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

It doesn't count as a fortification, does it?

It does, but it's still "your" unit

I'm not sure how the rules work in this case, perhaps there is nothing written and therefore the fortification does prevent the character from being targeted, however I don't think I'd play it that way unless my gaming group insisted.

 Kharneth wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

It doesn't count as a fortification, does it?

It does, but it's still "your" unit

I'm not sure how the rules work in this case, perhaps there is nothing written and therefore the fortification does prevent the character from being targeted, however I don't think I'd play it that way unless my gaming group insisted.

Why wouldn't fortification count? I don't recall specific rules for them in that regard.

fresus wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:

It doesn't count as a fortification, does it?

It does, but it's still "your" unit

I'm not sure how the rules work in this case, perhaps there is nothing written and therefore the fortification does prevent the character from being targeted, however I don't think I'd play it that way unless my gaming group insisted.

Why wouldn't fortification count? I don't recall specific rules for them in that regard.

Yeah, I'm not sure if there are any rules regarding this so RAW would allow it. Realistically, though, it doesn't really make sense. I wouldn't expect to be unable to target anyone else's characters if that character was further away than a fortification they purchased for their army. That's just personal, though. I'm not sure what the opinion of the rest of my community. I wouldn't refuse to play with someone who was demanding that the fortification blocks access to their character, but at the same time, if I went into a game with my own fortification I wouldn't expect (or rely on) it to prevent people from targeting my character.

I mean, if you put your character in a fortification now it cannot be targeted. I've only played a game with a fortification once and it was against Tau and they had a hovering barricade. If the only thing he had in that fortification was his character and everything else was behind it, I'd assume I could choose either the character or the fortification. I have literally no rules justification for this, though, it's just a personal expectation. I'll ask my league organizer tonight, because that'd be a really helpful thing to know in case I come across another fortification.

kingheff wrote:
So, to cut a long story short I'm planning to troll, in a friendly way of course, my friend who plays a defensive Imperial guard gunline with my Eldar army. He's playing his chaos marines in our next game so I'm trying to create the best approximation of a guard list I can with what I've got.
My question is am I crazy to use the Iyanden trait over the Alaitoc version? I've treid to make my heavy units as survivable as possible and I'm thinking that keeping them as fully functional as possible with Iyanden trait is worth taking the extra hits that I'd avoid with Alaitoc. The asterisks show models starting in transports, the characters may not start in them if I can hide them well enough with the terrain.

HQ's

Altansar battalion (Iyanden)

Farseer [warlord] with singing spear PTS: 105 *
Powers: Smite, Doom, Executioner
Trait: Seer of the shifting vector
Faolchu's wing

Spirit seer PTS: 65 ***
Powers: Smite, Enhance/Drain
Asurman PTS: 175 *

Troops

2 x 5 Dire avengers, exarch has two catapults PTS: 128 *
1 x 5 Rangers PTS: 60

Transport

1 x Wave serpent, twin shuriken cannons, twin shuriken catapults, spirit stones PTS: 137 *

Heavy support

1 x Wraithlord, two Aeldari missile launchers, two shuriken catapults, ghost glaive PTS: 163
1 x Falcon, pulse laser, Aeldari missile launcher, twin shuriken catapults, spirit stones PTS: 165 **
1 x Falcon, pulse laser, Aeldari missile launcher, twin shuriken catapults, spirit stones PTS: 165 ***

Altansar battalion [Iyanden]

HQ's

Maugan Ra PTS: 140 ***
Warlock with wraith blade PTS: 55
Powers: Smite, Protect/jinx

Troops

3x Dire avengers, exarch has two catapults PTS: 192

Heavy support

1 x 5 Darkreapers, exarch has Aeldari missile launcher PTS: 173 **
1 x 3 Darkreapers, exarch has Aeldari missile launchers PTS: 105 ***
1 x Fire prism, spirit stones PTS: 170

CP's: 13

Total 1998 pts

Your farseer should be 115, not 105

I know they're not as good as they used to be, but how do you guys feel about Warp Hunters against Knights? I still use one now and again, they seem to do very well against big targets, such as Greater Daemons. They do cost alot of points now but with Doom and Jinx, in flamer mode with a few CPs for re-rolls, I reckon 1 or 2 would do some work.

I think Fire Prisms are pretty good. 2 cost less than even the cheapest of the big Knights and can put serious hurt on one. Linked Fire in Focussed mode (with both firing twice thanked to pulse laser fire) will do on average 8 wounds to a Knight (unless they Rotate Ion Shields). Use "Lightning Fast Reflexes" to help minimise return fire (works even better if you are Alaitoc).

Can we revisit Shadow Spectres?

With recent and ongoing changes to the game (deepstrike changes, rise of DE and other shooty forces, pts increase for Reapers) are they looking any more attractive or about the same? I know the direct comparison is Spears, but I imagine you'd run both. The native -1 to hit just keeps looking better, and mobile heavy flamers seem to be a strong answer to a variety of units (hordes, DE gunboats, flyers). Is the answer still just "more Spears"?

I would plan on using them in a squad of 7-9 with a similar size Spears squad and an Alaitoc flyer detachment with at least 2 Hemlocks. The idea being they all present fast, dangerous, units none of which can be ignored and none are easy targets with buffs/stratagems. Thoughts?

I think Spectres are pretty good, though I do think Spears are better. Paired together they make a decent tag team. I've had good results with them, they do hit hard, the trick is keeping your investment alive. They can do good work with guide, making them Ynnari, Alaitoc and like you said they do help with hordes. Give them a go, have a play around with them, I like your plan. They're a bit "glass cannon" but good fun to use and the models are awesome.

I'd slate shadow spectres as one of, if not our best anti-horde option now that DR exarch spam isn't as viable.

Gotta go Alaitoc on them, gotta be ready for LFR. Their survivability, like rangers, is from their hit reduction.

Played a game recently against a 5 Knight list. Jinx + Linked fire on 3 Prisms deleted 1 Knight per turn alone. Being Alaitoc kept my Prisms alive all game.
I also had 2 Hemlocks and 1 Crimson Hunter that were able to chip wounds off here and there, plus Rangers doing a Mortal wound once or twice.

I was quite surprised at how well the list did, although I probably shouldn't have been. Almost everything in my army that could would did so at AP-3 or better.

One thing that my opponent and I agreed on is that being on an upper level of a Ruin making my Rangers "unchangeable" by the Knights was dumb. But I used the tactic anyway and was able to bottle neck the Knights to approach 1 at a time.

-

 Galef wrote:

One thing that my opponent and I agreed on is that being on an upper level of a Ruin making my Rangers "unchangeable" by the Knights was dumb. But I used the tactic anyway and was able to bottle neck the Knights to approach 1 at a time.
-

They have a stratagem to fight things on upper levels.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Galef wrote:

One thing that my opponent and I agreed on is that being on an upper level of a Ruin making my Rangers "unchangeable" by the Knights was dumb. But I used the tactic anyway and was able to bottle neck the Knights to approach 1 at a time.
-

They have a stratagem to fight things on upper levels.

Not sure why he didn't use it. Although he only had 4 CPs when the game started as he spend most of his others prior to the game on additional WL traits or something. So maybe he didn't think it was worth it.

-

Yea a 350-400 point Knight burning Command Points to attack a 60 point Eldar Ranger Squad in a Ruin is a difficult decision to make. Especially since the Knight cannot use its titanic feet, and is thus can only make the attacks if it has a Chain Sword or Gauntlet, which is only 4 attacks (or 5 on a Gallant). Any 1s to wound and even a 5 man Ranger Squad might live.

Eldar are in a good position to fight Knights, possibly one of the very best armies for putting them down. The Eldar Psychic Powers are excellent and play into the inherant weaknesses of Knights, taking advantage of their large single models susceptible to hexes, and complete lack of anti psycher outside of allies. Jinx essentially negates Rotate Ion Shields, and combined with Doom makes the mass s6 shooting native to most Eldar lists very effective. Remember Jinx targets Armor Saves too. So a Doomed and Jinxed Knight being lit up by Scatter Lasers and Shuriken Cannons has a 55% chance of being wounded by their guns, and only has a 4+ save at best to counter. As @Galef noted, the Linked Fire stratagem on Fire Prisms is almost custom made for combating Knights and other large multi wound single target threats.

Eldar rules actively encourage focusing fire on a single target until it is destroyed. This sums up Knights to a T, and they are ideal targets for everything from Doom, Jinx, Linked Fire, Fire Dragons, Reaper Missile Launchers, Waithguard, and can even threaten with just massed fire from the rest of the army supported by the aforementioned Doom and Jinx.

Then you remember that Wave Serpent Shields make life horrible for the Knights Damage 2 Weapons, and take some of the edge off of Armiger Auto Cannons... you have a painful combination for most knight lists.

 akaean wrote:
Yea a 350-400 point Knight burning Command Points to attack a 60 point Eldar Ranger Squad in a Ruin is a difficult decision to make. Especially since the Knight cannot use its titanic feet, and is thus can only make the attacks if it has a Chain Sword or Gauntlet, which is only 4 attacks (or 5 on a Gallant). Any 1s to wound and even a 5 man Ranger Squad might live.

To be fair, though, we rolled the Kill point mission, so there were no objectives and assaulting would have given him additional movement to get closer for next turn, even more if he killed the unit and consolidated.
Had I known that strat existed for him, I would have encouraged him to use it. There were opportunities to charge multiple units

-

Jinx + Linked fire on 3 Prisms deleted 1 Knight per turn alone.

Which weapon profile?