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I think GW is suffering from jet lag , a while back is true we were asking form more shooting stuff but damn lol!

 Forceride wrote:
I think GW is suffering from jet lag , a while back is true we were asking form more shooting stuff but damn lol!

Better late than never!

I feel like GW can't do math if it isn't a Space Marine. Lootas and tankbustas with SH2 is +100% firepower, that's ludicrous.

If it was SH2 on shoota boys and SH1 on everything else that would seem more reasonable.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
The detachment looks very strong just based on the detachment rule. It does however mean that Flash Gitz and Tankbustas become even more potent at shooting and will likely lead to them getting a hefty points increase based on the sins of a single detachment.

The rule should have been "gain sustained hits 1, if it already has sustained hits, increase it by 1". Still good, but not obnoxious.

It’s almost certainly going down to sustained 1.. but that’s only partly why this detachment is bonkers.. each of those Strats are amazing in thier own right..
Waaaghh on every single turn for a key unit is amazing
Reroll wounds to enemy unit on objective.. amazing
Ignore cover as needed… yes please
+1 ap which is one of the biggest reasons tankbustas are needed… amazing
Free shooting during oppenents turn… honestly wow

And then there is a bunch of semi useful enhancements the biggest being +1 to hit for your unit.

All of those together just make tankbustas and freebooters great but make lootas brutal now as well. You will also see a unit of Gretchin w/zodgrod or meganobs to take advantage of the Waagh all the time strat..

I’m not sure what this detachment was designed for… every other detachment was trying to thematically fit a clan this one feels like a weird swing at badmoons style list but really doesn’t fit that theme either. I would have rather GW taken a crack at another type of speedfreak list by making this one biker focused. Get rid of infantry keyword and replace with speedfreak.. and make warbikers battleline. Ya deffkoptas would be good and a buggy or 2 might be decent shooting. But buggies profiles are so bad this list would be significantly weaker.

My only concern is if orks are absurdly broken this will make units prices go dramatically up that shouldn’t when this is purely just an overtuned detachment issue.

Is this detachment an attempt by GW to bring the Orks win-rates up in tournaments?

I can't see a reason why most players wouldn't switch over to this list.

Besides the obvious nerf on the horizon.

unknown.

More likely to sell models.

... but when the nerf hammer lands, it will leave a crater, GW is always heavy handed with us.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Is this detachment an attempt by GW to bring the Orks win-rates up in tournaments?

I can't see a reason why most players wouldn't switch over to this list.

Besides the obvious nerf on the horizon.

I think it’s just not knowing what they were really doing.. ork win rates were fine.. in fact taktical got hit to hard for a detachment that was only 54% winrate.. the price increase to tankbustas, bigmek w shokk, Mek kaptain and addition of 1 use and line of sight to all bomb squigs would have been fine. The taktical detachment rule nerf of 1 order limit with mortals for every leadership test on an order was a bit overkill and the increase to 3+ for just tankbusta bomb squigs is confusing when it makes bombs squigs different on multiple units. I’m not saying taktical is a bad detachment but it’s not in the top 4. (Dakka, warhorde, dreadmob, bullyboys) next 4 (taktical, greentide, big hunt, kult of speed).

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Is this detachment an attempt by GW to bring the Orks win-rates up in tournaments?

I can't see a reason why most players wouldn't switch over to this list.

Besides the obvious nerf on the horizon.

You don't really lose anything by switching though. You can literally pick any dread mob or taktiks list, tweak it slightly and switch it over to dakka and to make it better. When the hammer lands, just go back to your original list.

You can't even argue it's to sell models because it only buffs shoota boyz to be on the same level as beast snaggas, but doesn't make it a superior choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Is this detachment an attempt by GW to bring the Orks win-rates up in tournaments?

I can't see a reason why most players wouldn't switch over to this list.

Besides the obvious nerf on the horizon.

I think it’s just not knowing what they were really doing.. ork win rates were fine.. in fact taktical got hit to hard for a detachment that was only 54% winrate.. the price increase to tankbustas, bigmek w shokk, Mek kaptain and addition of 1 use and line of sight to all bomb squigs would have been fine. The taktical detachment rule nerf of 1 order limit with mortals for every leadership test on an order was a bit overkill and the increase to 3+ for just tankbusta bomb squigs is confusing when it makes bombs squigs different on multiple units. I’m not saying taktical is a bad detachment but it’s not in the top 4. (Dakka, warhorde, dreadmob, bullyboys) next 4 (taktical, greentide, big hunt, kult of speed).

Eh, I'd argue that we have three tier of detachments right now:
1) Dakka, warhorde and bullyboyz are just raw power, no mukkin' about.
2) Dreadmob, taktikal, green tide and big hunt are for oddboyz which like thematic armies while still having a real shot at winning games.
3) Kult of Speed is for when going fast is more important than killing or shooting or winning...

The nerf bumped taktikal from 1 to 2.

Have to agree with Jidma, gleaming GW at this point is a bit silly. lets wait and see.

I don't have enough Ork experience to understand why everyone is so sad every time someone says Kult of Speed ...

It sounds like it would be fun.




Edit: Spellcheck doesn't like the word "Ork."

 Quixote wrote:
I don't have enough Ork experience to understand why everyone is so sad every time someone says Kult of Speed ...

It sounds like it would be fun.




Edit: Spellcheck doesn't like the word "Ork."

Behind the model issues being large enough bases that it creates a serious movement and logjam issue.. Nonse of the buggies do any reliable damage or are durable enough not to. The detachment ability does little to fix those issues. None of the Strats or enhancements are great but there are a few decent one however buggies are now units of 1 meaning any type of buffs is limited.. speedfreak planes are also bad by design. And finally its biggest grievance is the speedfreak lineup is horrid in mission play and has issues scoring primary which is usually ork codex strength. Buggies really just need dataslate tuneups and the detachment needed a stronger ability.. advance and shoot is a useful partial ability for the detachment though.

How about giving all speed freeks sustained hits 2?

 Quixote wrote:
I don't have enough Ork experience to understand why everyone is so sad every time someone says Kult of Speed ...

It sounds like it would be fun.
Edit: Spellcheck doesn't like the word "Ork."

It could be and used to be fun. But not now. Because the set o rules is a multilevel tragedy. Filtre my posts there, I wrote at least 2 or 3 long posts about it…

The detachment would be good if the datasheets were powerful on their own.

As it is, you have a bunch of fragile units which struggle to kill anything, and the detachment gives you a ton of movement shenanigans, but solves none of the problems.

 Tomsug wrote:

 Quixote wrote:
I don't have enough Ork experience to understand why everyone is so sad every time someone says Kult of Speed ...

It sounds like it would be fun.
Edit: Spellcheck doesn't like the word "Ork."

It could be and used to be fun. But not now. Because the set o rules is a multilevel tragedy. Filtre my posts there, I wrote at least 2 or 3 long posts about it…

Man, you sounded really depressed in some of those posts. Are you OK now?

I read the posts, I see your point. Good models, not so good datasets for them.

I understand that flyers in general are bad in 10th edition, but why haven't they adjusted the buggies or other vehicles to make them better, or cheaper to use?

 Jidmah wrote:
How about giving all speed freeks sustained hits 2?

A single change on more Dakka by removing ork infantry from the detachment rules and replacing it with speedfreak keyword would solve like 90% of the problems with that detachment. Although it would still likely need to be sustained 1 because even deffkoptas would be brutal at sustained 2. Then increase the waaagh strat to 2cp and I think more Dakka would be fine since lootas, tankbustas and flashgitz wouldn’t be good in this detachment.

I'd kind of like Speed Freeks to get progressive buffs the faster they move. Really get into the foot-to-the-floor mindset.

Maybe have shoot after advancing/falling back as the base form, then add sustained 1 on melee and shooting (or improving by one of you already have it) if moving up to half movement characteristic, then worsening the opponents BS by 1 if you move at full movement.

Have a clause for it being a distance from where you started to avoid gaining the buffs by wiggling back and forth.

Changing the more Dakka detachment works, but I feel like a Speed Freek player should be encouraged to be really taking advantage of mobility and speed.

Oh, and change the Snazzwagon to be "when an enemy unit targets a friendly model within 6" of this model", rather than the gak it currently is.

I like that idea, i would refine it by: if you moved give it sustained 1 (add +1 if already has it), if advance add stealth and maybe 5++ invul?(speed freaks only in addition to the assault one)
I would love to be able to use the measuring idea, but i for see it getting complicated and prone to gaming it. So your declaration on what the unit does, is probably a more solid trigger, if it is too powerful, force to choose between one or the other.

The idea is your moving so fast your hard to hit and damage, the sustained is adrenaline kicking.

CP abilities, one to run over infantry, use a cp after charge the infantry does desperate breakout with -1. The idea is your moving so fast you don't care about the slow flies that get caught under your wheels.

Another CP ability is like a race, you select a target during command phase, any unit that moves closer to it gain's lethals. Idea is your warboss roars a challenge and the finishing line is the target, obviously a proper ork won't let their opponents one up it so the lethals represents the competition driving the boyz harder.

But i don't see GW doing it.

I'm a bit late to the party due to how busy work has been for me, but this is a very welcome surprise detachment! Definitely feels a bit overturned offensively speaking, since all the strats look great and there's no duds to really speak of. With the amount of bellyaching going over this online by non-Ork players, I can't imagine this won't be nerfed pretty swiftly by GW. I am glad that our walkers are generally getting more love though through strats and baseline abilities like this.

I do feel like GW is deliberately sidestepping the underperformance of buggies given how it's rock bottom for them for so long. I think like most of you have said already, the key problem are the datasheets themselves so it's harder to address directly via the detachment rules unless there's a complete overhaul at some level. I think also when it comes to buggies, the fact that character support for them is non-existent doesn't help, since the Deffkilla Wartrike can't join them or provide an aura that does any meaningful buff for them. Meks aren't efficient and can't keep up, and there's also basically no enhancements that actually do anything for buggies either.

On a side note, I've been seeing a lot of people bring breaka boyz for a lot of lists in lieu of Nobz with the Warboss, are they that much better because of their built in rerolls to charge and the flat 3 damage from their smasha hammers? Haven't tried them out myself personally so I wasn't sure what people's experience with them are so far.


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 Afrodactyl wrote:
I'd kind of like Speed Freeks to get progressive buffs the faster they move. Really get into the foot-to-the-floor mindset.

Maybe have shoot after advancing/falling back as the base form, then add sustained 1 on melee and shooting (or improving by one of you already have it) if moving up to half movement characteristic, then worsening the opponents BS by 1 if you move at full movement.

Have a clause for it being a distance from where you started to avoid gaining the buffs by wiggling back and forth.

Changing the more Dakka detachment works, but I feel like a Speed Freek player should be encouraged to be really taking advantage of mobility and speed.

Oh, and change the Snazzwagon to be "when an enemy unit targets a friendly model within 6" of this model", rather than the gak it currently is.

This would be nice, it would align close to what the old Speed Freeks focused detachment from 9th was like, where you had to advance to get the 5+ invuln save they would get from being in the detachment (while still being able to shoot while advancing).

I’m liking the look of the new detachment, but I have one complaint about our shooting.

We have relatively few options for truly high S shooting.
I think our shooting especially our big guns, should be high A, and S, low AP, and damage on par with comparable weapons in other factions.

For example lootas A2 S8 AP-1 D2 on deffguns shows they’re clearly ork versions of autocannons, but worse in literally every way.

A3 S9 AP0 D3 would make more sense to me.

Snazzguns are generally what I think ork guns should be. They’re similar to HBs but I’d be ok with dropping the AP.

The brutish approach to warfare orks have just makes sense for a lot of shots at fairly high S imho.
Rokkits could be A d3 S10 AP-1 D3 <blast> and I don’t think that would break anything.

Well GW is famous or infamous for not being good in math.. i think there are examples where they disregard data over feels making a weapon busted or underpowered.

Now this could be a conversation on itself given asymetric balance that warhammer takes.

It's even worst for us due to how swinging we tend to be so on a good bunch of rolls we can hit really hard, on a bad, we wiff just as bad..

Had games where lootas on 6 made something like half the hp of a landraider and in ideal circumstances i did nothing, this can be easily explained with math but GW only sees what it wants..

That's why our faction when it get's busted it's really hard to balance since your unsure if it is just a statistical good result or a OP weapon.

Going back to the new datachment it focus in these good moments, when the loota scores it over shoots it's potential damage and becomes oppressive... that's just a small one, pick tankbustas on 4 to hit with 6 explode with re-rolls to 1 and you have a crazy weapon that shoots as hard has some of the weapons of previous edition, but here's the fly in the ointment.. it can also underperform like it had none of the buffs.

I am not advocating for the detach stay the same way but that's my line of thinking when GW does any ork balance. Also explains why knee jerk nerfs everytime!

 Forceride wrote:
Well GW is famous or infamous for not being good in math.. i think there are examples where they disregard data over feels making a weapon busted or underpowered.

Now this could be a conversation on itself given asymetric balance that warhammer takes.

It's even worst for us due to how swinging we tend to be so on a good bunch of rolls we can hit really hard, on a bad, we wiff just as bad..

Had games where lootas on 6 made something like half the hp of a landraider and in ideal circumstances i did nothing, this can be easily explained with math but GW only sees what it wants..

That's why our faction when it get's busted it's really hard to balance since your unsure if it is just a statistical good result or a OP weapon.

Going back to the new datachment it focus in these good moments, when the loota scores it over shoots it's potential damage and becomes oppressive... that's just a small one, pick tankbustas on 4 to hit with 6 explode with re-rolls to 1 and you have a crazy weapon that shoots as hard has some of the weapons of previous edition, but here's the fly in the ointment.. it can also underperform like it had none of the buffs.

I am not advocating for the detach stay the same way but that's my line of thinking when GW does any ork balance. Also explains why knee jerk nerfs everytime!

I mean a S9 weapon doesn’t really do that well into tanks…which I believe is their primary target based on the name ‘tank bustas’

That’s kinda my issue. Unless you’re going with super heavy walkers, you have limited options for high S guns.
It would make sense for ork guns to be above average S for a class of weapon, since brute force is their whole thing.

Like does anyone think a rokkit launcha at Ad3 S11 AP-1 Dd3+3 <blast> would be too OP? It’s no more effective against infantry of any sort than it is now except maybe characters, maybe even less effective due to less AP, but it’s more likely to wound tanks, and when those wounds stick they are actually doing damage.

I am not disagreeing with you, but think about it.

Deffkoptas have twinlinked, but you hardly see them, and twinlinked in 5s is really good, the issue is 5 to hit and low volume fire

But no other one rookit has it. When they manage to hit they have high chances of causing damage but the low volume and lack of tools makes them inconsistent.

Tankbustas real deal against the vehicles is the +1 to wound +1hit with the SAG

The rockets, are most of the time a bonus,
the SAG has the AP and the Damage but is missing the S and Hit, i don't care if most rockets die has long as the sag get's the buff

Here's another, the smash gun on the meks is better then the s12 one, why? Ap -3, if you wound on 3 but your opponent is saving on 2s your begging for bad rolls, on the other hand every 5 roll on the smash can easily translate to damage.

It's funny but sometimes we get the profiles we deserve, take the bubble chuka, perfect profile for each gun, but you have to roll.

So why all these tangents? To show you that GW goes by gut instinct rather then what is balanced.. End result? Highly inconsistent and a lot of feels bad and feels good around. But this is what i signed has an ork, for that surprise.

I disagree. SAG helps with targets that have high saves and no invulnerables, but more often than not rokkits take out a target before the SAG even gets to roll.

The main reason to run SAGs is because it becomes super efficient when running with tankbustas and the re-rolls. I would not be surprised if they errata tank hunters to only work on tankbusta models.

+1 to hit and +1 to wound combined with the AP from the pulsa rokkit is what makes tank bustas reliably damage hard targets. I'm not sure why deff koptas keep getting brought up. Even if you ignore all the issues of running a dozen hard to hide vehicles with no leader option or detachment support, they are 45 points more for the same amount of rokkit shots, without any of the benefits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

johnpjones1775 wrote:
I’m liking the look of the new detachment, but I have one complaint about our shooting.

We have relatively few options for truly high S shooting.
I think our shooting especially our big guns, should be high A, and S, low AP, and damage on par with comparable weapons in other factions.

For example lootas A2 S8 AP-1 D2 on deffguns shows they’re clearly ork versions of autocannons, but worse in literally every way.

A3 S9 AP0 D3 would make more sense to me.

Snazzguns are generally what I think ork guns should be. They’re similar to HBs but I’d be ok with dropping the AP.

The brutish approach to warfare orks have just makes sense for a lot of shots at fairly high S imho.
Rokkits could be A d3 S10 AP-1 D3 <blast> and I don’t think that would break anything.

That approach might have worked in the past, but definitely doesn't work in modern editions. To blast through a 2+ save or 3+ in cover you need to have an AP, the number of shots to reliably get through armor without an AP is just too high.

If you go by the autocannon logic, losing a point of AP would require twice as many shots to get through a marine in cover. Compensating for worse BS is another 50% extra shots, so a loota would have to be A6 S9 AP0 DMG3 to be the equivalent of a heavy weapon team, so a whole unit is 48 shots. On average this will be mediocre, but hot dice can easily decide games. It gets worse if you add leader, stratagems or detachments with bonuses to shooting. Eventually the unit will be just as swingy as 8th edition's SAG when it did nothing in some games, and dealt 100+ damage to a unit in others. Not a good place to be.

These days a weapon with no AP either is a weapon designed to be swingy within limits like relics or psychic powers, or the weapon is mostly useless against anything other than light infantry, like shootas, lasguns or assault cannons.

Had same discussion with a friend of mine, he is a data scientist math is his thing.

The conclusion we got is that while pulsa rocket is nice to have versus high saves the loss of 1 extra d3 is kinda big the window of opportunity is pretty small as well. Over the course of a game if well played it will even out the odds. So the upgrade while good is mostly a side grade.

We were taking in account the game we were playing and he is Eldar.

As for the SAG, it consistently causes issues to my opponents, the rookits tend to whiff a lot.. on the other hand there is the usual i am f when they roll for the SAG.. I do admit it's rare for me to face sv3 vehicles but in general in that department, SAG is the main dealer, unless i catch a vehicle in the open there the -2 starts to rack up. That has been my experience so far.

My opponents tend to hide pretty well from shooting, so they gain cover consistently, the other thing is i rarely dismount t1 since i rather do some pot shots from trucks and wait on waghhh and bait opponent closer.

Played a game last weekend with the More Dakka detachment and I was shooting better than my DA opponent.

Big Mek with Shokk Attack gun in a squad of lootas was deleting whole squads of marines. Even on overwatch!

 Mr Nobody wrote:
Played a game last weekend with the More Dakka detachment and I was shooting better than my DA opponent.

Big Mek with Shokk Attack gun in a squad of lootas was deleting whole squads of marines. Even on overwatch!

What's that on the horizon? It's a giant GW Nerf Hammer! And it's coming this way!

You can't do better than the Space Marines, that's not proper.

 Jidmah wrote:
I disagree. SAG helps with targets that have high saves and no invulnerables, but more often than not rokkits take out a target before the SAG even gets to roll.

The main reason to run SAGs is because it becomes super efficient when running with tankbustas and the re-rolls. I would not be surprised if they errata tank hunters to only work on tankbusta models.

+1 to hit and +1 to wound combined with the AP from the pulsa rokkit is what makes tank bustas reliably damage hard targets. I'm not sure why deff koptas keep getting brought up. Even if you ignore all the issues of running a dozen hard to hide vehicles with no leader option or detachment support, they are 45 points more for the same amount of rokkit shots, without any of the benefits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

johnpjones1775 wrote:
I’m liking the look of the new detachment, but I have one complaint about our shooting.

We have relatively few options for truly high S shooting.
I think our shooting especially our big guns, should be high A, and S, low AP, and damage on par with comparable weapons in other factions.

For example lootas A2 S8 AP-1 D2 on deffguns shows they’re clearly ork versions of autocannons, but worse in literally every way.

A3 S9 AP0 D3 would make more sense to me.

Snazzguns are generally what I think ork guns should be. They’re similar to HBs but I’d be ok with dropping the AP.

The brutish approach to warfare orks have just makes sense for a lot of shots at fairly high S imho.
Rokkits could be A d3 S10 AP-1 D3 <blast> and I don’t think that would break anything.

That approach might have worked in the past, but definitely doesn't work in modern editions. To blast through a 2+ save or 3+ in cover you need to have an AP, the number of shots to reliably get through armor without an AP is just too high.

If you go by the autocannon logic, losing a point of AP would require twice as many shots to get through a marine in cover. Compensating for worse BS is another 50% extra shots, so a loota would have to be A6 S9 AP0 DMG3 to be the equivalent of a heavy weapon team, so a whole unit is 48 shots. On average this will be mediocre, but hot dice can easily decide games. It gets worse if you add leader, stratagems or detachments with bonuses to shooting. Eventually the unit will be just as swingy as 8th edition's SAG when it did nothing in some games, and dealt 100+ damage to a unit in others. Not a good place to be.

These days a weapon with no AP either is a weapon designed to be swingy within limits like relics or psychic powers, or the weapon is mostly useless against anything other than light infantry, like shootas, lasguns or assault cannons.

Then increase the damage per shot so when it gets through it hits harder.
Besides I’d rather have a better chance of causing a saving throw than less chance to wound but more likely for them to fail.

Which makes it swingier.
And also punishes Daemons or anything else tough but without good armor.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Which makes it swingier.
And also punishes Daemons or anything else tough but without good armor.

they have a decent armor save. 4++ on many/most of them is pretty good, and any AP makes an attack better against units with trash armor like orks and guard.