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Poll
Can Skimmers, Jump Infantry, and Jetbike Infantry ALWAYS move over enemy troops as defined in the main rulebook, without exception?
Yes. 72% [ 26 ]
No. 28% [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 36
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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






.................................... Searching for Iscandar

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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





by not putting in the reason for the post you're eluding the Exception.
You're going to get all yes as even I voted yes

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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





St. Louis, MO

paidinfull wrote:by not putting in the reason for the post you're eluding the Exception.
You're going to get all yes as even I voted yes


Bad assumption.
Right now, it's 2 to 1 against.

Stelek, I had to say, "No." There could always be an exception.
As a matter of fact, I'm creating a scenario for 40K right now that happens IN a hive city.
One of the rules will be that indirect fire will not work.
Another will be that there is a "ceiling (reason for I.F. not working)" that tops out at a particular height. Models will not be able to go above that height. If there is a model on top of a (for example) 3 story building... and that is the highest point allowed, then a skimmer, obviously, will not be able to go over him.

If you want better answers and a more valuable concensus on your poll, you really should state if you're asking to see if anyone's found any ways to keep it from happening, or if you're thinking of a specific instance, or something else.

Eric

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Los Angeles, CA


Stelek:


Are you referring to just movement in the movement phase?


Because Jump Infantry can't move over enemy models with their assault move.


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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






.................................... Searching for Iscandar

@Yak: Just movement in movement phase. I know jump infantry walk during the assault phase.

@Eric: I don't believe I need to explain the question further, the main rules say you can do this. I just want to know if there's any reason these 3 types of troops cannot freely move past enemy troops during the movement phase, as allowed in the main rulebook.

There is no 'exception'. There's a poorly worded FAQ which paid thinks causes an exception. It's your board edge, so if skimmers cannot move past because you are within an inch then they also cannot move past if you are within an inch. This is NOT the way the game is played, period. Otherwise you'd also never be able to tank shock either, because the FAQ overrides THOSE rules too? Please.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210125.page

   
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Regular Dakkanaut




It certainly sounds like a trick question..

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To me also. But I haven't played any 'Hive ' missions.

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oh yeah oops. I voted yes, but I would say no in the assault phase.

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Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





The answer is No.

Stunned skimmers and Pinned jump infantry can't move over enemy models as they can't move at all.

Your poll says "ALWAYS...without exception".
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






.................................... Searching for Iscandar

You have to be able to move to be able to move.

Seems like an obvious concept.

   
Made in sg
Executing Exarch





"Without exception" means there are no exceptions.

Seems like an obvious concept.

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Depends on what you think takes precedence. If my Web Way Portal is surrounded are my Raiders blocked from coming in through them per the FAQ, or can they fly over the surrounding troops per the BGB entry about skimmers?
   
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Fixture of Dakka






Lancaster PA

Before I vote, are we counting Jump Infantry's ability to move as normal infantry for purposes of not twisting their ankles in difficult terrain as an "exception"?

That would see to be the glaring one for me, since they are not moving as Jump Infantry, despite BEING jump infantry.


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If your point was can jump infantry and skimmers/tankshocking vehicles move in from a WWP that is surrounded then yes, they can if they use the movement that would allow it normally. Basically you should have asked, does the FAQ for DE override jump infantry/skimme/vehicle rules that would allow them to come on normally? THat answer would be no, it does not stop them just because they gave a general reason for it not to work.

   
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So that's what the "trick" of the question was..

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SoCal, USA!

If so, it's not much of a trick.

The basic rules heirarchy of exceptions is as follows:

FAQ >> Codex >> Rulebook Exception >> Rulebook Basic

so:

DE FAQ >> DE Codex >> Jump Pack / Skimmer Movement >> Movement.

Therefore...

If a DE WWP is surrounded, the DE are screwed, regardless of whether they're a Skimmer, Jump Infantry or anything else.

   
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.................................... Searching for Iscandar

If only it were true, John. If only.

   
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SoCal, USA!

What part of "if enemy models surround the portal then you cannot use it to enter play. " don't you understand?

This has got to be one of the clearest rulings GW has made in quite some time.

You don't have to like it, but it's very clear and to the point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/04/09 04:34:26


   
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.................................... Searching for Iscandar

rofl. clear to the closed minded, I suppose.

   
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Regular Dakkanaut




John, while I'm not exactly "rofl" , the problem is that the FAQ doesn't quite make a ruling that "if enemy models surround the portal you can't use it." It makes a ruling that the normal movement rules apply, including the 1" rule, and then states that "THIS MEANS THAT if enemy models surround the portal, etc.." Unfortunately, the latter is an erroneous conclusion from rule stated just prior. Skimmers and jump infantry come within 1" of enemy modles during movement all the time. Thus, if models coming in through a WWP follow normal movement rules, this does NOT mean that enemy models surrounding the portal close it off unequivocally. It's frustrating when GW's examples don't follow their own rules. But I'm not sure a faulty conclusion stated in a rules set consitutes a rule in its own right if it contradicts the relevant rules.

"I didn't say I was ATTACKING the Umber Hulk. I said I was THINKING about it." -- Jimbo Jones as one of "The 12 Types of Fantasy Gamers" in "Comic Book Guy's Book of Pop Culture" 
   
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SoCal, USA!

You realise, of course, that, from a rules POV, "This means that" is meaningless introductory text.

And regardless of the "correctness" of how the FAQ derived its ruling, when using a FAQ, the FAQ overrides everything else.

Whether one chooses to abide by any particular FAQ is a different question altogether.

   
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I'm not arguing whether or not the FAQ takes precedence, it clearly does. I'm just saying that a rule is hardly clear when it says one thing, and then explains that it means something that that one thing simply doesn't mean.

Imagine we had a codex where terminator armour was defined in the armory as it is now, but a unit special rule stated that "this unit wears terminator armour. This means that they can all use a 4+ invulnerable save."

Would you call using a 4+ invulnerble save on this unit "one of the clearest rulings GW has made in quite some time?" I could see arguments both ways, but it would hardly be clear.

"I didn't say I was ATTACKING the Umber Hulk. I said I was THINKING about it." -- Jimbo Jones as one of "The 12 Types of Fantasy Gamers" in "Comic Book Guy's Book of Pop Culture" 
   
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Stelek wrote:You have to be able to move to be able to move.

Seems like an obvious concept.


"ALWAYS" and "without exception" are obvious concepts.

Being pinned is an exception. Your poll title asks if these units can move while pinned, immobilized, engaged, locked, or in any other state because you used (in all caps even) "ALWAYS".

So the answer must be No.

If you wish to rephrase the poll so that it is asking what you really want to know, then the answer could easily change.
   
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Swize1
I have made a fairly long an extensive post on the matter in another thread,
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210125.page

What John and I believe is that the skimmer does not in fact IGNORE the 1" rule, but has a separate rule all together which allows them to move over enemy troops during the movement phase and presumes that they do not break the proximity rule of coming within 1" of an enemy model.

You and others feel differently.
My reason for posting is that these comments are better placed in the appropriate thread as this thread is about: Can Skimmers, Jump Infantry, and Jetbike Infantry ALWAYS move over enemy troops as defined in the main rulebook, without exception?

It is not about the DE WWP.
Cheers
C

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/04/09 20:20:41


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Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

swize1 wrote:Imagine we had a codex where terminator armour was defined in the armory as it is now, but a unit special rule stated that "this unit wears terminator armour. This means that they can all use a 4+ invulnerable save."

Would you call using a 4+ invulnerble save on this unit "one of the clearest rulings GW has made in quite some time?" I could see arguments both ways, but it would hardly be clear.


Your example is flawed. The answer to your question depends on whether the special rule defines terminator armour, a special type of terminator armour, or a unit that happens to wear terminator armour. For example, if they were Chaplain Terminators, then yes, the ruling would still be clear.

   
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North Carolina

With the FAQ saying other wise, your answer is no because of the RAW for the FAQ.

Biomass

 
   
 
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