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hi, this is my first crack at a 2000pts Empire list so comments would be very much appriceated

templar grand master
runefang
=245pts

warrior priest
barded warhorse+heavy armour+great hammer
=112pts

warrior priest
barded warhorse+heavy armour+great hammer
=112pts

captain of the empire
warhorse+lance+full plate armour
=72pts

6 knights
champion
=154pts

6 knights
champion
=154pts

9 knights
champion
=253pts

9 knights
champion
=253pts

9 inner circle knights
full command+banner of the daemons blood
=324pts

5 pistoliers
champ+repeater pistol
=107pts

5 pistoliers
champ+repeater pistol
=107pts

5 pistoliers
champ+repeater pistols
=107pts

Huh, now this is different. An Empire Army with no detachments at all.

First thing I'm thinking is that you could use a BSB. Without Rank bonuses those knights are vulnerable to a bad round of combat, and you'd like to mitigate that as much as possible.

I'd also say the 9 knights who aren't the main unit could do with banners and musicians. They are big enough that going full command is probably going to be worth it, esp. since it looks like you are putting your bosses with them.

I'd say you should probably swap out the bare bones captain for a scroll caddy, he could chill with the pistoliers. Scrolls add that certain something to magic D, I think you'll agree.

That's all I've got off the cuff, I'm sure an Empire player could give you more insight.

Okay, Just some quick thoughts:

Your Templar Grand Master cannot weild a runefang... that's Elector Count's only. And... it's kinda a crappy weapon. Instead, a sweet weapon for a Grand Master is the Sword of Sigismund... That'd give your Grand Master 4, str 5 attacks that always go first. Not bad for a human. Then, with the points you save, get him the Holy Relic for the must-have 4+ ward save. He still won't be able to chase down dragons, but he should be stalwart enough on his own to take out enemy heros pretty well... not lords, but heroes.

Find the points to put standards in your cavalry units. Cav has to win on the charge... and the static +1 that banners gives you is therefore a must. Remember, enemy line-infantry can easily generate +3 CR just from ranks and a banner... that means you have to cause three wounds just to tie them. You need that banner.

In fact, on your big hitty unit, if your Grand Master is with them, he gives them Immunity to Psychology. A better banner to give them would be a War Banner for an additional +1 to CR. Combat Resolution is what wins you battles as the Empire, therefore you want to try to start with as much static CR before the dice rolling even begins.

Your Captain is kinda redundant... he doesn't really add anything to your army as he currently stands. If you want to keep him, get a Pegasus, and a weak magic weapon (like a Sword of Might). Then he can act as a war machine and lone sorcerer hunter. On just a horse he really isn't any better than your standard knight.

As was suggested, I would swap him out for a level 1 wizard with 2 dispell scrolls. Your Magic Defense is kinda shallow right now. The dispell scrolls give you that bit of protection against those game-changing spells. And, if nothing else, gives you one more chance to get off a weak combat spell. Level 1 wizards are decent support magic... so look at the lores where the default spell lets him boost the abilties of other units... like movement spells, or a weak-multi-shot magic-misslie-like spell.

Your Pistoliers could really use a musician too. Their ability to bait-flee is greatly enhanced by the musicians ability. Also, something to think about, lacking other targets, your Pistoliers will be prime pickings for enemy spells and small arms fire. Expect them not to last for more than two turns because of this.

If you want to keep with the cavalry theme, you might also want to take a look at the Bronzino's Galloper Gun Regiment of Renoun. It's a light cannon (str 7, d3 wounds) that can still threaten enemy monsters, characters, and the like. In addition, it moves 16", and has a sacrificial hero. It's actually wicked-sweet as far as Regiments of Renoun go.

Anyway, just some quick thoughts.

Lt. Craggs made some really good points and I'd like to add a few.

You definitely need the musician in the pistoliers units, also you could drop the champ and add another whole pistolier - only one less shot but another whole model.

The smaller knight units don't need a champion, a musician yes as it allows you to bait and flee with them, a standard maybe but it is possibly 100 easy VP with the unit size so small. The two larger blocks NEED full command, they are your hammers and Lt. Craggs said it right CR is what wins combats for the empire. Drop the daemon banner and take the war banner for sure.

I don't like the set up of your warrior priests - I love the priests just not what you have equipped them with. An item that I never go to battle with out is the Icon of Magnus - it will make another unit (probably the second large knight unit) immune to fear, an invaluable asset when you must have the charge against many possible opponents. Drop the great weapons - not only are they only +1str you have to strike last unless you charge, get a cheap magic weapon - sword of might or battle instead.

Again Lt. Craggs is spot on with your Templar - I run the exact same Templar as Craggs stated, combined with a Priest in the unit on the charge he can be devastating and the relic makes him durable

Dropping the 1 regular knight unit of 9 to just 6, giving all knight units musicians, the templar the sword of sigismund and hoily relic, the warrior priests Icon and Sword of might, and Sword of battle and doomfire ring, a lvl1 wizard with 2 scrolls on a mount, and making the pistoliers 6 strong with musician works out to 1994, that gives you 3 knight units for flanking/bait and flee, 2 hammer units that reroll misses on the charge, one immune to psychology, the other immune to fear, three war machine/wizard/bait and flee units that can shoot, 5 dispel dice and 2 scrolls for magic protection.

Just my 2 cents, hope it helps (and makes sense)

PapaSmurf

this list was kind of based around my 1000pts since the 2000pts needs so much changing can you look at this list

warrior priest
icon+heavy armour+barded warhorse+shield
=135pts

captain
lance+shield+horse
+74pts

6 knights
musician
=146pts

6 knights
musican
=146pts

9 inner circle knights
full command+warbanner
=299pts

5 pistoliers
musican
=97pts

5 pistoliers
musican
=97pts

Again drop the Daemon banner for the war banner, you still have to take a fear check to charge a fear causing opponent, only after its determined that you are in charge range and can legally charge to you cause fear. Drop the Champs to musicians in the knight units and give musicians to the pistoliers. other than that it looks good. You might even have enough points saved after changing out the banners to get your captain a magical goody and your priest a shield

Good Luck

PapaSmurf

i updated the list how is it

Orkyboss30000:

I'm assuming that you're asking about your new 1K army list.

First, I'm sorry I'm being lazy about this. Normally I try to story-review armies... especially Empire and DoW armies. I'm just crunched for time. Anyway, onto some more quick thoughts.

At 1000 points, you realy lose a lot of points with the Inner Circle Upgrade. For the points to make your 9 knights Inner Circle, you could have picked up 2 more banners for some of your other knight units. Empire knighs are nice, but they can be costly. You really need the static CR even a generic banner gives you. I would suggest you downgrade the Inner Circle to just normal knights, and spend the points to get two other standard carriers.

Also, the Inner Circle upgrade has diminishing returns. The upgrade works best on smallish units (5 - 6 strong) where the entire front rank can smash into enemy units. After that, you're paying even more points for a upgrade that the second rank of knights is not using.

I'm going to assume that your 9-knight unit has one of your characters in it... making it 10 strong. 5-wide, by 2 deep... that 2nd rank of 5 knights is only generating you +1 CR, and isn't being point savy because their strength upgradge they cannot use from the rear rank. So... you are keeping points out of the fight. If you want the Inner Circle upgrade, downsize the unit to 5 or 6 strong.

The Captain isn't really adding anything to your army. His LD is 8... like the vast majority of your units. WS 5 isn't really that impressive over WS 4 because most things already have WS 3 - 4. In other words, the enemy will still hit your Captain on a 4+. WS only really becomes nice once you hit the 7 range, as then you start making your opponnet hit on 5s. He does have 3 attacks, but if you drop him, you can easily get 3 Precept upgrades in three of your knight units. This will increase the combat ability of more of your units. That one extra attack the Precept has can often give you that one more wound you need to wipe out the front rank of whatever it is you charged. Thus I'd drop the Captain in favor of getting Precept upgrades.

If you want to keep the Captain, put him on a pegasus and give him a Sword of Might, sheild, and Full Plate for the shock-and-awe affect at 1K.

Or, another way to spend the points dropping the Captain would give you would be to get yourself a level 1 wizard. Right now, your priest will never get off a spell. Why? Your opponent is going to have at least 2 dispell dice... 2d6 to dispell a Power Level 4 spell is pretty assured. (2d6 gives you results from 2 - 12... meaning they'll have to roll really crappily to let you cast your spell.) Even a level 1 wizard will make your opponent now have to decide what spell to cancel... especially if his dispell poll is minimal.

Your opponent should have 2 - 3 dispell dice. With a Warrior Priest PL 4 spell, and your level 1 wizards weak spell, your opponent has to streatch to cancel both... giving you a pretty good chance to get one spell off a turn. A level 1 wizard can also carry 1 dispell scroll and 1 more die to your dispell pool, letting you basically shut down your enemy's magic phase. You could even save points, at 1K, and just rely on the 4-die dispell pool. Now, while it may be risky, I would advise putting your wizard on a warhorse and in with the Pistoliers, or on a barded warhorse, and in with one of your flanker-knight units.

For your Warrior Priest, at 1K, you can probably get away with not bringing along the Icon of Magus. Most enemies won't have good fear-causing units... or oversized ones at 1K. Thus, the LD8 of the Warrior Priest, and your knights should be able to cover down on fear effects. Don't forget, as long as your unit still is larger than enemy units, even if you fail a fear test, you still hit on 6s. Cavalry models count double for unit size... meaning your opponent is going to need blocks of infantry ~13 strong just to threaten you with the fear-caused-auto break. More importantly, at 1K, you shouldn't see that many fear-causing threats. I'd save the points, and not get the Icon.

I would have to disagree slightly with PapaSmurf. For your Knight units, I'd swap the musicians for Standard Bearers... they are a bit pricier, but your knights should be winning combat, not trying to rally from fleeing. The +1 CR from the standard bearer will greatly enhance that ability.

And... for a suprize, get one of your 6-strong knight units the Steel Standard. This unit now becomes your flanker-knights because they'll have a charge distance of 15 - 17"... those 1 - 3 extra inches are often just enough to hit a units side, instead of its extreme front.

Anyway, just some thoughts for you to chew on. Hope the help.

i dont want to take the banners because they would be an easy 100 victory points

i was thinking about going all knights for a tornament (the tornament i'm going to loves ultra themed armies last time i took a cathayan orgre converted army and i got 4th) since i going with knights panther i'll use the cloaks for the white wolves as panther cloaks and some of the old spearmen shields

anyway i was thinking of this

captain of the empire
-full plate armour+sword of battle+pegasus+enchanted shield
=140pts

warrior priest
-barded warhorse+doomfire ring+heavy armour+shield+sword of might
=150pts

6 inner circle knights
standard+musican+banner of duty
=190pts

6 knights
standard+musican
=162pts

6 knights
standard+musican
=162pts

6 knights
standard+musican
=162pts

loads of flanking action with the inner circle knights going for the tough units while the captain goes kill those pesky warmachines and shooty units, after (if he survives) he may start to march block making flanking easier, and the sheer amount of knights will give me some edge against their cavalry
dispel dice=3 dice
power dice=2 dice (but all my spells are bound spells)