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As many of you know, the new chaos codex is pretty poor. Heres the question: do your store owners allow you to use the older, more interesting rules in game, or do they stick with the current codex?

My store owner (official GW) doesnt seem to like the new rules either. We are both IW players so we have lost almost all of our special abilities, many of which I based my army on, including extensive conversions

Note: Sorry if this is a repeat topic, as I am new and actually only got the new codex a couple of days ago and need somewhere to voice my opinion.

I understand your feelings about the CSM Codex. I agree that it is a poor excuse for a codex.I actually bought the codex and exchanged it 2 days later for the Eldar codex. It convinced me to get back to my long-time-in-storage Eldar.

Actually the only reason I am on this site is because I was curious what other gamers thought of the new codex and wanted to read some reviews. There's a good and funny review hiding on this site somewhere.

I can understand changing the Chaos codex to disinclude demons since GW went to the trouble of making a demon codex with new rules and all.(Haven't seen it yet.) But that doesn't mean that you include pathetic demon stats just to fill in the gap.

And HONESTLY, WHAT HAPPENED TO WARGEAR SECTIONS IN ARMY BOOKS?!?!? You know, where all those nifty options for modeling inspiration were.

At least Eldar didn't have much of a wargear section to begin with. Exarchs, yes. Wargear, no.

Sorry. Lost my head for a moment. Still gets to me. I lost my Alpha Legion army to this new codex. Just bugs me. I look on the bright side. If I ever play with CSM I can just glue one nurgling to a base and say it is a lesser demon. YAY, GW made it cheap to play a demon unit finally

I agree, the wargear section was my favourite part of the old codex. I made a IW lord that resembled a small tank, all legal under the rules. But now I can't have servo arms, or any of the daemonic powers that I used to represent the modeling. Now he is practically useless.

I hear you, but can't you just use him as a DP? No reason why he shouldn't look like a small tank. Or you could use him as a Defiler.

I'm not one of those guys who claims Chaos players didn't lose anything with the latest dex, or that it isn't relatively flavourless compared with the old one, but I don't think this particular thing is something you've lost. Now, the Basilisk, on the other hand. . . .

I wasnt very happy with the new Chaos codex either, felt it was to bland for what should be a vibrant sort of army

being able to make unique legion specific armies and insane conversions were the best part of it, now I cant see any reason to collect Chaos, and dread what future codexes will be like

Wasn't the point of the current Codex: Chaos supposed to be targeting Renegades?

Didn't Johnson babble something about an upcoming Codex: Ruinous Powers? My memory is a bit fuzzy.

It always makes me chuckle in my soul when people bemoan the new C:CSM. Its a good book, more balanced than v3.5 C:CSM, and while written with renegades/Black Legion in mind, still allows the vast majority of fluff and background to be represented. I'm a Nurgle boy to the marrow of my bones, and sure I miss my demons, but the new book is still very strong. There isn't a single model from my 3.5 version of my army that I can't use.

Sure, I feel for the IW players that can't use a basilisk anymore, or alpha legion players that can't use their cultists anymore. But I sure as hell don't blame GW for "ruining a good thing." The 3.5 codex was broken. It was overpowered. It gave new life to Herohammer in a game when most people agreed that Herohammer had to go away. You want someone to blame for your goodies being taken away? Talk to the mirror.

It's our fault, collectively as Chaos players, that we lost the awesomeness. Everytime someone put an infiltrating Nurgle Speed Lieutenant with a manreaper on the table, we brought ourselves closer to losing it. Every Iron Warriors player with 4 pie plates and 9 Obliterators, every Word Bearers army that Deployed 1 model in the deployment phase, every Slaanesh player who spent 350 points to make an unkillable Siren Prince helped to kill the 3.5 codex.

"But it was GWs fault for not playtesting their source material" doesn't work as an excuse anymore, either. Any time that someone complained about the nigh-untouchable, not to mention unkillable, Siren Prince, either on a forum or in conversations in person, the excuse I've always heard was "Its legal so I'm using it. Blame GW for not playtesting..." In my observations, those tend to be the same people who always bemoan GW for "not listening to the customers." Ironically, they were wrong. GW did listen. They heard what we had to say about the brokenness of the 3.5 C:CSM, they observed for themselves, and they fixed the problems. GW puts minor psychic powers in the Chaos list to add character, players abuse said powers, players loose said powers in the next edition. GW gives us demonic talents, veteran skills, unique force organization charts, players abuse the Nurgle out of them, and we're shocked they got nerfed?

The new book is amazingood if given the chance. Berserkers? Better. 1K sons, better. Plague Marines, better. Noise Marines, still too expensive, but they were back in 3.5 too. Kneejerk reactions and mouthbreathing [as an aside, people have asked me to explain this term... think Mort the pharmacist from Family Guy and his AV nerd son, the way they talk... and then insert gaming talk into their voices, complaining about this or that, or remembering the "good days," or explaining how theyre smarter than the multi-million dollar company... THAT is mouthbreathing] because their oh-so-clever abusive rules lawyership was taken away from them don't change the fact that the new C"CSM is a very good book.

As for the loss of the wargear page, thats not an issue with the new codex per se, but rather an issue of the new organisation and style of codexes... one which I firmly support because it addresses those areas of the game that players CONSTANTLY exploited.

With the exception of the basilisk for IW players (and again, I feel for you that you lost your model, that's the one point I concede on the book changeover) I challenge anyone to give an example of an option they lost thats not in the book. I guarantee I will be able to prove its unbalanced brokenness or find a way to do it in the new C"CSM as good or better.

I don't even know what a "Siren Prince" is.
I played Alpha Legion and was mostly Troops which is the way I felt the army should have been played. Some cultists supported by a handful of CSM
Infiltration. Yes, of course I used it. Sometimes it did me no good but it was paid for as an option. Did I give it to Raptors? No, I thought it was absurd to think of Guys with screaming backpacks moving stealthily pre-battle. Did I still take them? Yes, just not with infiltration. I even had a bike squad.

IW. I had a Basilisk, a Land Raider, a Dreadnought, and 1 Havoc Squad of nine guys armed with ML.

Oh, Squad that I made and got removed was Noise Marine Bikers with Sonic Blasters. Modeled three so far and they got knocked off the list. Whee!

The real answer to abuse of points based selection rules is to modify the points, NOT eliminate the rules entirely. That's what GW fails to see.

A quick fix could have been an escalation of points per demonic upgrade. First one at base cost, Second one costs 10 points extra. third one costs an additional 20, etc, etc. POINTS based systems need to be fixed by modifying points paid. End of Story.

A Siren Prince was a mark of Slaanesh Demon Prince, built as incredibly killy as possible because it couldn't be killed. At all. So you'd put d. mutation, wings, stature, strength, speed, a dark sword...whatever floats your boat. Then they would drop 60 points into minor psychic powers, which means they got all of them, so they were guaranteed to have the Siren minor psychic power, which means that the prince cannot be targeted for shooting or chosen as an assault target.

And like I said, its not YOUR fault, and its not MY fault, but it is collectively chaos players fault that we got the book we now have. At first glance, your lists as you described them sound awesome, fluffy, within the accepted realm of what AL and IW lists should be... but that doesnt change the way half of a GT would be a 9 oblit, 4 pie plate IW list with a total of 10 models from the troops section.

Just so I get all yor opinions on my post. I'd like to know what your thoughts are on my opinion that you don't eliminate options, you change point values.

So my idea of escalating costs of demonic gifts would have made a "Siren Prince" very unfeasible and unattractive.

The IW problem of 4 Basilisks could be handled by a simple 0-1 or 0-2 limitation and requiring other unit prerequisites. (troop choices and such per heavy choice)
Obliterators could be handled in like fashion.

They did it for Dark Elves when they adjusted spearmen down a point. Thereby making them a better deal than Corsairs which were being taken exclusively compared to spear carrying warriors.

Points changes would have been a workable option - though I'm not sure how effective escalating points would have been... it would seem to me at least that a large minority of gamers cant do the simple addition required to build an army list, so adding percentage multipliers would just make grey matter leak out of their ears.

In all seriousness though, points changes - up or down - would have been a workable solution... if the new codex style/system/format/whatever hadn't been adopted. The new already provides a simple way of policing what was v3.5 C:CSM, and (to me at least) maintaining symmetry of rules/formats is a very good thing. Could they have kept gifts? Sure, but look at the D Prince you have... better for cheaper. Look at the C Lord... Gifts would be fun and cute, but unneccessarily superfluous. He already kills everything close to him, why does he need to be better?

So in answer toi your querry, if the new codex format didnt exist, yes, points alterations would have totally worked.