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Hey guys, over my 1 1/2 of playing WHF I've noticed people using derogatory terms for various armies. Of course, we all know of "cheesy" armies or "beardy" armies but there is another type of army I've heard talk of over time.

"Point and click" or "plug and play" armies. Obviously this is meant to be an insult to an army or its playstyle, but honestly I'm not quite sure what it means. I've heard it applied to armies as different as Bretonnians to Wood Elves. Can anyone explain what armies or what traits about them people consider "point and click"?

My main army in WHF is Skaven, but I also play Hordes of Chaos and recently I've started Daemons of Chaos. Well, I'm just guessing because of the inherent randomness of the army that Skaven would not be considered "point and click" but do yall consider Hordes/Daemons plug and play? I gotta' say, if there's a large amount of negative feedback regarding Daemons it would really turn me off from starting them.

I know for a fact that many people regard Demons in a negative light, because they're an inherantly powerful army:

Immune to Psych.
Unbreakable
Great Stats
Greater Demons are like a Dragon but better

But honestly, if people want to bitch at you for your army, screw them.

There are "point and click" armies, but the most common one is Brettonia I think. The all-knight army, built with optimization in mind basically sets it up so that the whole army charges on turn 2, and because they have 2+ Armor w/ 5+ Ward, with static CR and more attacks than other Heavy Cav in the game they can be a very "point the lance over here, charge, break through, turn around, repeat".

Aye, my first pick for "point and click" would be Brets. I've actually used a similar phrase in anger at the tree spirit armies that have sprung up in my area, and while I feel like an a$$ for deriding the newbies like that, dryads are so cheap for what they do that it takes a lot of will not to whine. One of my friends has played a total of 4 games of fantasy 1v1, all against me, and I've only finally managed a draw against him with my ogres. I make mistakes yes, but when his army is all skirmishing, all ItP, all unbreakable, all fear-causing and undercosted, it can get a bit frustrating

I promise to control myself but the new demons I do believe are going to be quite "P&C" particularly when nurgle-heavy.

- Salvage

Hey hey hey, they're not Unbreakable! But yeah, they're really only that bad when you don't have the magic/shooting to deal with them and they out combat Ogres, which is sad.

Oh right, no crumble, and I have run the wood b!tches down ...

Aye, perhaps it's just my armies (Eshin Skaven, Ogres) have an incredibly hard time against them

- Salvage

The idea of a 'point and click' army would be the type of army that does one or two things and does them well. Ive heard army lists and books described this way. Basically my problem with it is that all the strategy in playing with such an army takes place before the game. You win not based on having superior tactics but on better exploitation of your army book and your wallet.
Personally i like to beat point and click armies, often the people playing with them are so unused to actual tactics and exploitation of weaknesses that they cant stop you when you adopt a balanced army with unorthodox tactics.
The best thing about such armies that write themselves is watching an experienced player wield them. Scary but cool to watch a man who can win with the crappiest Dark Elf army take to the field with Ogres or Brettonnia

Im sorry, I dont hink I have ever heard of ogres and brets used in the same context in regards to strength.

slayer armies are pretty point and click. they move up, they chop things, minimal shooting (hewer) and no magic brings it all to combat.

I will admis as a brit player, I play my army the same way 80% of the time. I only change my playstyle against elves (wood and high) and orcs and goblins. I think this what is ment by "point and click" armies is that they tend to do the same thing most of the time you field them.

Leith wrote:Basically my problem with it is that all the strategy in playing with such an army takes place before the game. You win not based on having superior tactics but on better exploitation of your army book and your wallet.

Bingo, I like to think the 40k min/max phase doesn't have a place in fantasy ...

Yep at slayers, all comes down to dice dice dice - can your opponent throw enough before you hack him off the table? In my ogres case ... yes he can

- Salvage

Leith wrote:The idea of a 'point and click' army would be the type of army that does one or two things and does them well. Ive heard army lists and books described this way. Basically my problem with it is that all the strategy in playing with such an army takes place before the game. You win not based on having superior tactics but on better exploitation of your army book and your wallet.
Personally i like to beat point and click armies, often the people playing with them are so unused to actual tactics and exploitation of weaknesses that they cant stop you when you adopt a balanced army with unorthodox tactics.
The best thing about such armies that write themselves is watching an experienced player wield them. Scary but cool to watch a man who can win with the crappiest Dark Elf army take to the field with Ogres or Brettonnia

I'm going to take a very strong opposition to the faintest idea that Ogres are on the same level of "point and click" as Bretts.

The amount of crap you have to setup with Ogres to actually win a game is ridiculous because if you just charge headlong into a ranked unit you will die a very terrible and very quick death.

Yeah, Ogres are not Bret caliber. Heck, DE Ogres should usually be a pretty good game.

>Bingo, I like to think the 40k min/max phase doesn't have a place in fantasy ...

Unfortunately, while less prevalent, it still occurs. Some lists are just OTT and some armies are just generally lower or higher powered compared to others. Generally, this is because of special rules available in large numbers. Examples include salamanders, pegasus knights, weapons teams, etc. Loading up on these provides a very cost efficient, imbalanced lists and armies without similar options tend to lag behind. GW seems to believe that providing useless or overcosted choices somehow offsets this. A better option would probably be to increase the cost of duplicative items in a list. So the first unit of knights (or whatever) costs X. Then maybe cumulative +10% for each additional (or maybe by category- Core- 0%, Special- 15% Rare- 10%, etc.). So if the initial is 200, the next is 220, then 240, etc. This would encourage greater diversity of selection.

Or they could, you know, just balance costs better and limit "really good" stuff to Lord (normally 0-1 but increases for larger games) allowance or something.

hey hey... Pegasus knights are 0-1 read the bret army book.

Pegasus knights are not whats makes brits OP, hell its not even the ignore penalty from barding, or even the option to take knights as core. Its the lance formation and praying for ward saves.

Did you just respond to yourself?

Red_ Lives: My comments were not directed soley at Peg Knights. Also, please read what happens when you put your lord general on a pegasus.

Brits are OP as a list b/c of the combination of exceptional cav special rules, core cav, WSs, and best fliers in the game. The most OP build is arguably the RAF which will have 3 or so peg units. Lance would mean squat if it was limited to Specials and RAF would still be ridiculous.

No I would have to say the ogre rhinox list is the most OP and yes its just a WD but still. I know what your talking about with the RAF and yess that is very expensive both money and point as well as a waste of a character to reach that.

AMP187 wrote:My main army in WHF is Skaven, but I also play Hordes of Chaos and recently I've started Daemons of Chaos. Well, I'm just guessing because of the inherent randomness of the army that Skaven would not be considered "point and click" but do yall consider Hordes/Daemons plug and play? I gotta' say, if there's a large amount of negative feedback regarding Daemons it would really turn me off from starting them.

From the initial perusing of the new daemon book, the armylist doesn't look very point-n-click as it have lots of nice choices to be had which are expensive pointswise, especially the greater daemons. It has the option to cheese-out and make very annoying builds such as tzeench shooty/blasty craziness which is sort of similiar to the awful SoC Daemons flying circus, but as pretty much all the armybooks have options to make very one-sided and silly armies, I don't see that as big as an issue. The book desperately needs a FAQ for couple of minor issues, though (siren vs itp/unbreakable stuff etc.). I'd probably wait with starting a Hordes of Chaos army as the upcoming WD-list seems like utter pants and the book is due at the end of the year and probably will change lot of things with the army such as disallowing daemons/beasts which may make a big part of the current hordes armies. Regarding if the current HoC is p-'n-c, it certainly isn't if you steer away from golden eye+dragon (the only broken thing in the book).

Chaoslord wrote:
It has the option to cheese-out and make very annoying builds such as tzeench shooty/blasty craziness

Agreed. Aside from this, if you field a balanced army consisting of 2-3 Gods, you should be cool. A Khorne/Tzneech Army with a hint of Nurgle is pretty awesome. But really, aside from the Slannesh which I didnt care for much, you cant go wrong.

Though I will refuse to field screamers. I fly OVER you and inflict hits. I had this done to my Orc army (not known for their maneuverability) and it simply infuriated me. I refuse to field them out of spite now because I simply find them cheap and cheese.