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So far, thinking of competitive daemon builds (or perhaps searching for any competitive daemon builds), these are two I've been playing with. One ignores the idea of comp, and the other is more themed but maybe cheesy. I'd like to hear what people could do to improve either list and which list they think is just a better all comers.

1850 Epidemius list:

HQ: 410
Ku'Gath
Epidemius

TROOP: 1026
20 x Plaguebearers
Icon

(2x) 10 x Plaguebearers
Icon

(3x) 9 x Nurglings


HEAVY: 405
(3x) Daemon Prince
Mark of Nurgle
Cloud of Flies
Gaze of Chaos

PRO: Incredibly hard to kill.
Once(if) I hit 20 kills and Ep is alive, Nurglings become uber swarm of death.

CON: Slow as hell
Little way to deal with Mechanized lists. (DP's are best chance and 12" assault range probably not enough)

1850 Thirster/Horrors

HQ: 510
(2x) Bloodthirster
Blessing of blood God

TROOP: 805
(1x) 5 x Horrors
Bolt
(1x) 12 x Horrors
Bolt/Icon/Changling
(2x) 10 x Horrors
Bolt
Icon

ELITE: 210
(2x) 3 x Flamers

HEAVY: 380
(2x) Daemon Prince
Iron Hide
Gaze of Chaos

(1x) Daemon Prince
Mark of Tz/Bolt of Tz/Soul devourer

PRO: Very Very Shooty with two insanely hard hitters and three decently hard hitters.
Lots of 4+ invulnerable saves and four 3+ armor saves.

CON: 5 MCs maybe not enough counter charge to protect horrors.
Questionable comp score.

So, what do you all in dakkaland think? (List edited to reflect changes*)

Hey Lemur...

been kicking around an epidemius list in my head. this one looks pretty cool.

I'm sure you are aware that it is totally gimmicky and other than kugath it has no vehicle kill. One way to combat that would be to use flying princes.

The princes don't benefit from epidemius, but they help you get those kills up, along with the necrotic missiles from kugath.

I think iron hide is important on these demon princes, and given the huge lack of mobility (lack of mobility is an understatement) of this army, I might even break my rule, and spring for wings.... You could drop one prince and just run 2, to get some points, since they won't get any better when epidemius powers up. If not wings, iron hide for sure.

I also think that aura of decay would be a huge boost to getting kills for epidemius. Everyone that can take it should have it. Which means more points into the princes.

Those nurglings at 20 kills will be devastating. Wounding on 2s with power weapons? hahaha


for the kheentch list, i don't see anything lacking at first glance... I used to hate the plasma pistol on the bloodthirster, but as i've played more games against speed freaks and dark eldar, and even sisters of battle, I've found that with the 5th edition rule of 'you can charge a unit that falls out of a vehicle even if you shot at their vehicle', the plasma pistol is nice for popping a trukk or a raider and then wiping out the unit inside before they get to move/dual charge you.

I wish you'd put gaze of chaos on those princes, so that they'd have a bigger impact on arrival, I'd even say dropping one of the horror units to get it, or even one of the flamer units is worth it. Strength wouldn't hurt on the bloodthirsters either, but every little upgrade i suggest adding makes the rest of your army thinner and thinner.

I'm just nitpicking. Second list looks pretty good to me



As for the comp/theme comment... I have to interject here... They've written the fluff very carefully in the new demon codex to retcon the cooperation of the demons. Sure they hate eachother on the 'inside'. But when tears in the warp happen. All demons find out about it, and all demons rush to the opening. When it comes to going 'outside', all demons recognize that they are allies against the living creatures that exist outside the warp. they may taunt eachother and shove, but they'll fight side by side to kill humans, period.

Powerful bloodthirster generals will stand at entrances to realspace and organize demons into waves, maximizing the strengths of each demon. Once those waves hit, everyone else will just start hopping through. pushing and shoving.

ANY combination of demons in an army list is totally viable from a fluff perspective. That great fluff bit in the codex with the bloodthirster pushing all of the lesser demons aside so that a lord of change can come to the portal opening and look inside is awesome. And it was written to ease us all into the idea that demons all play together, much like chaos space marines all play together, as do imperial guard regiments and auxilias from different planets.

Now, comp is a bit different. As the power builds emerge i'm sure there will be concerns about taking too many "good" units. but no one really knows what those are yet.

Shep,

I've thought about what you've said a bit and you have given me ideas.

Perhaps dropping a DP would be beneficial as well to give my other two wings (more fast movers in this list is definitely a positive, although for theme I'd still take Mark of Nurgle over Iron Hide, as by the math, they both do about the same in terms of protecting against small arms fire.) While I am hesitant to have two 175 pt DP's, being able to assault 18" is really important in a list where a good piece of its points are SAP.

I've revised the list slighty. Mostly the same cept two DP's with Mark of Nurgle, Flies, and Flight, dropped the beasts of Nurgle entirely, and added 4 Flies of Nurgle (Screamers) to add a bit more AT.

There is also the upside of, if I decide to run this army, it cuts down on a DP I need to buy.

As for the Thirster list, I think more is better, upgrades are good, but perhaps I'm still stuck in Nid mode where the more you can cram in, the better. I have to ponder more to be sure.

Thanks for all the wonderful thoughts.

Don't drop a DP for the wings. Drop the Beasts and add Gaze of Chaos to each. A STR5 AP3 MEQ killer that hits on a 2+ is excellent and in this list has the added bonus of death tallys for Epidemius. 9 shots per turn starting when they arrive gets that tally moving quick. Toss in the occasional blast template from Ku'Gath and the only thing stopping your tally will be the number of opponent models.

This is, IMO, the best defense for the Ork Green Tide/Horde. Enough casualties and the nurglings become fantastic while Ku'Gath and the DPs drop in shooting (don't forget that Ku'Gath makes additional Nurgling baeses as well).

As you mentioned, fast movers will be the bane of the list. If it is an objective based mission you should own.

Epedmius really wants to work with a spitter list, drop him along with 3 heralds of Nurgle with Breath of Chaos and/or 3 DP's with Mark of Nurgle and either BoC or just Daemonic Gaze to shoot at things.

Ku'Gath's big template probably won't get much more than a BoC, and he costs more. I'd say forget the big guy and go with the spitters.

Hmm, well, after another round of criticisms, I've edited the lists in the post to reflect what I'm thinking. Right now, I think I like the Bloodthirster/Horror combo as it doesn't rely on keeping one model alive. While granted it is hard for anybody to take down 20 plaguebearers plus Epidemius quickly, It can be done, especially if a bad scatter takes me someplace bad or a bunch of powerweps hit my line. I like Ku'Gath because he generates nurglings, which really are going to be the power house in the list. And the advantage is that he can launch it off and get kills farther away than BoC, and it has a better chance of killing things (2's better than 4's). Not to mention, I love GUO's and so I love super GUOs.

As for the khorne, I dropped 3 flamers and 5 horrors to add another DP, this one with Mark of Tz and bolt of tz, added 2 horrors and the changling to one squad, and gave gaze of chaos to the other two DP's. I have about the same amount of shooting as I did, more higher strength shooting, and a bolt that lands on 2+.

Thanks for the thoughts again and another round of criticism is much appreciated.

Two minor nit-picks: Gaze of Chaos is actually called Daemonic Gaze. Ku'Gath's blast is AP 2, but wounds on a 4+ just like Breath of Chaos.

I look at the Bloodthirster list, and I think it could be more fun if you switch out the 'thirsters for Lords of Change and the DPs for Soul Grinders. I feel like DPs with 1 shooting weapon are wasting their ability to fire 2 guns, and then as I look at all the points you'd have to spend to get survivability + weapons I just go back to the naked LoC. Scuttlebutt says that MCs kept their ability to fire 2 weapons in 5th, but almost never get cover saves, so 3++ is quite nice! That is, if you believe rumors.

Bloodthirsters are fun though, so maybe a 'thirster and Fateweaver like that great story Shep mentioned? Re-rollable 4++ saves for the Horrors would be nice...

Oops, my bad. You are correct that my post above should have read "Daemonic Gaze".

As long as Fateweaver is being discussed, how about adding him in place of Ku'Gath? Plaguebearers get a re-rollable 5++ followed by a 4++ FNP. 3 chances to save every wound is just not nice.

Zero_Cool wrote:As long as Fateweaver is being discussed, how about adding him in place of Ku'Gath? Plaguebearers get a re-rollable 5++ followed by a 4++ FNP. 3 chances to save every wound is just not nice.

So long as there within six inches of the Fateweaver whereas Epidemius can be anywhere on the board. Fateweaver's lack of toughness and lower leadership means he won't stick around for long.

I wouldn't be too sure of that. A rerollable 3++ is no joke, and the odds of his failing the test when he does lose a wound are not high.

You take some chances with fateweaver but look at what you get for the points. You can't come close to giving a LoC all that stuff for those points and that doesn't include the re-rollable saves.

Also, does kugath's special attack even affect vehicles? I forgot to check that when browsing the book. If it doesn't then I say why bother? You can get more nurglish troop killiness for cheaper.

Hmm...I am liking the Fateweaver idea. An easier convesion than Ku'gath, more AT, more ranged fire power, and even more defense as it will force my enemy to split fire between Epidemius and his 20 plaguebear bodyguard and Fateweaver.

Liking this quite a bit....and yes I was thinking of fantasy Ku'Gath with the +2, I apologize.

I'll have to ponder more. I just need to choose which army I am going to build as both require lots of models and therefore, money I need.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:I wouldn't be too sure of that. A rerollable 3++ is no joke, and the odds of his failing the test when he does lose a wound are not high.

Yes, a rerollable 3 save is very good but when your forced to start making save after save due to a toughness 5 stat it doesn't look all that appealing. Then you have a 25% chance of failing your leadership, then it's bye bye to a 333 point model. Too risky for me.

lemurking23 wrote:I'll have to ponder more. I just need to choose which army I am going to build as both require lots of models and therefore, money I need.

I'd go with the Epidemius list. It's doesn't having the flash and quick strike ability of the Thirster/Horrors list but it's sure resilient. And with a little patience, those Plaguebearers/Nurglings will be causing havoc by turn 4/5.

I have a similar list in mind, but with no Heavy Support. Substitute in there a combo of some elite Flamer (BOC)/Seeker units to give additional AT/HTH support. Possibly a Tzeentch Herald to go with one of the Flamer units.

NotThisTime:

Yes, a rerollable 3 save is very good but when your forced to start making save after save due to a toughness 5 stat it doesn't look all that appealing. Then you have a 25% chance of failing your leadership, then it's bye bye to a 333 point model. Too risky for me.

First off, isn't he Ld 9? That's around a 17% chance of failing, not 25%, right?

In this case, risk for you is also risk for the enemy. Shoot cheaper but squishier stuff, or shoot the big points sink with the redonkulous save? Deciding to shoot at Fateweaver is the "Yes, I'm feeling lucky" choice.

Well, what Fateweaver adds, besides the rerollable bubble for everyone, is another high priority target for my opponent to have to deal with.

The reality is that the moment I drop down Epi, every gun in range and LOS is going to aim for him and his squad, but with Fateweaver around, suddenly they must decide which is the most immediate threat. Chances are, they are going to hit Fateweaver first, and as long as he is outside of double tap range, it will take a lot to get through his ++3 rerollable save.

As I think more, I like the Epi army, although I feel I will be one of many rocking the all nurgle or mostly nurgle army, but the Thirster army is about 100$ cheaper for me to build.

Anyway, I like Fateweaver over Ku'Gath, if I go the nurgle route, I will be doing that.