First SM list, 1555 pts.

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**Cheese Elemental**

This is a Space Marines list that I'm going to run once my Tzeench army is a good size. Critique please, but read it ALL first. The army is centered on infantry, with a balance of melee and dakka in mind.

HQ
Chapter Master Vanneus, with master-crafted power weapon, storm shield, and artificier armour. - 115 pts.
Command Squad, sergeant, company champion, apothecary, standard bearer, two Marines with bolt pistol and CCW. - 115 pts.

Elites
Venerable Hellfire Dreadnought, with assault cannon, missile launcher, and tank hunter skill. - 145 pts.

Troops
Tactical Squad Alpha, nine Marines and veteran sergeant, with heavy bolter and plasma gun. Sergeant has bolt pistol and PF. - 165 pts.

Tactical Squad Beta, nine Marines and Veteran sergeant, with heavy bolter and plasma gun. Sergeant has bolt pistol and PF. 165 pts.

Tactical Squad Delta, nine Marines and veteran sergeant, with heavy bolter and plasma gun. Sergeant has bolt pistol and PF. - 165 pts.

Fast attack
Assault Squad Alpha, nine Marines and Veteran sergeant. Sergeant has bolt pistol and power fist. - 230 pts.

Assault Squad Beta, nine Marines and Veteran sergeant. Sergeant has bolt pistol and power fist.

Heavy Support
Predator Annihilator, with heavy bolter sponsons, extra armour, and dozer blade. - 120 pts.

Devastator Squad Alpha, four Marines and veteran sergeant with storm bolter, four heavy bolters. - 235 pts.

Total points: 1555 pts.
So now I have an anti-tank squad as well as an army at just over 1500 pts.

**wuestenfux**

If you have the 5th ed in mind, keep the Tacticals but give the Vet Sergeants power fists (if you expand to 1500 pts).
You could split the units in the 5th ed into combat squads, with Vet Serg and plasma gun in one squad.
In the 4th ed it is better to keep shooty squads small, 6 men squads are sufficient.

You have lots of heavy bolters, this is good vs horde armies, but the army lacks anti-tank weapons.

**Cheese Elemental**

Sorry, I didn't finish it. Shoulda given a heads-up.
I won't keep my shooty squads small, because I prefer the sight of rank upon rank of infantry. If I want small shooty squads, I'd take Devastators, which have been added to the list.

**wuestenfux**

The list looks quite good. Are you playing against specific enemies?
The army lacks power fists, as power fists are Dreadnought insurance.

**Cheese Elemental**

Well... I won't bother with fists on my Tac squads, since the idea is to keep them away from the action so their heavy bolters don't go to waste. I will give my assault marines fists though.

**model collector**

I would swap the attack bikes for a squad of scouts with 4 sniper rifles and a missile launcher. U could use them to blow up tanks and to kill rock hard infantry like plauge marines

**tegeus-Cromis**

model collector, not likely. A single S8 shot is not great for tank-killing for the points you pay for the squad and sniper rifles are terrible at killing Plague Marines--you have to get past a 3+ and the 4+ FNP. What such a squad actually is decent (not great) at is hunting MCs, but I wouldn't say they're a better buy than two attack bikes.

**PistolWraithCaine**

Hi, always take PF's in your tactical squads...always!! It gives you insurance against things that will attack you and it also means you aren't always having to move them to avoid getting attacked so you can shoot more. Change the devastator squads to 4 HB's instead of las/ml. This is because of the nature of those weapons. A las can destroy it's target in one shot, if that happens the other 3 shots are wasted. On the other hand, you are always going to want to shoot all of your HB's because hopefully the target you are shooting them at can take that many causalities and therefore no wasted shots. Put the lascannons in the tactical squads. This give you the flexibility to shoot at three different targets or make three shots at the same target if need be. So basically reverse their weapons.

The assault marines need a PF, a s4 PW isn't going to be nearly as effective as s8. Drop the attack bikes and use the points to get the fists. Attack bikes are super overpriced and super easy to kill! Yay, a 50 point model with t4 one wound and a 3+ save!! That is what your opponent will say when he sees them.

Have Fun

**tegeus-Cromis**

Attack bikes have two wounds, FYI. Doesn't matter when an LC zaps them, of course. You're probably right that they're overpriced (DA attack bikes are another matter).

**PistolWraithCaine**

Yeah I guess I always forget because any of the weapons that are commonly shot at them to ignore their armor save instant kill them anyway haha. Yeah SM Attack Bikes are a super waste of points.

**Cheese Elemental**

Well alrighty then, but I'm reluctant to take a Sniper Scout squad because of the changes to snipers in 5th, so I think I might take another Tac squad and maybe a Land Speeder or two.