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Well, this list is prepared for a tournament coming up this weekend. I would love to hear what you all have to say about the list, my potential tactica, and my vulnerabilities.

HQ:

The Avatar of Khaine = 155
Farseer = 88 Fortune, Singing Spear

Troops:

Guardians x12 = 111 Scatter Laser
Guardians x12 = 111 Scatter Laser
Guardian Jetbike x6 = 152 Shuriken Cannon 2x

Elites:

Fire Dragons x6 = 96
Harlequins x8 = 198 Shadow Seer H Kisses 6x


Heavy Support:

Falcon = 165 Shiruken Cannon, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones
Falcon = 195 Scatter Laser, Vectored Engines, Holo-Fields,Spirit Stones
Wraithlord = 155 Bright Lance,Eldar Missle Launcher

Fast Attack:

Vyper = 65 Eldar Missle Launcher
Vyper = 65 Eldar Missle Launcher
Warp Spiders x8 = 193 Exarch, Extra Death Spinner


TOTAL: 1749 Points, 12 Scoring Units, 59 Models




First, I will explain my army's strategic elements as they relate to my overall tactica.

Without any explaination needed, it is clear to see that my Avatar, Farseer, Wraithlord, and 2 Guardian squads will be managing a portion of the table under a very destructive bubble.This bubble will be guarded by a counter-assult unit of Harlequins, which will use VoT to ensure they can hide just infront or beside the bubble to intercept CC. I think the obvious fearlessness and body count will be advantageous, not to mention the entire bubble of fire/destruction is moblie while fortuned. I plan on keeping these units together for nearly every type of game, but only plan on moving out of/behind great cover for taking objectives or shooting/Melta-smashing circumstantially.

(Now, I've played enough practice games w/ this list to understand the benefits of putting the Wraithlord on its lonesome or along with the sniping Vypers...with this type of board configuration, it's easy to establish a heavy, safe fire base from both sides. With such a large range of open fire, enemies will hesitate to go where they can see you, and hesitate even more to go where you are waiting for them.)


As for the other units- My 6 Jetbike unit is a powerhouse that is used to keep my enemies on their toes. It will be an advancing unit, and a sniping unit. Their primary objective will be to stay alive long enough to find an effective target to pinpoint and disturb while maintaining scoring capability. Warp spiders will advance cautiously and avoiding CC, guarded by well hidden Vypers, in order to spray down some advancing units of my enemies hoping to capture an objective through pure numbers. The Vypers' roles are to protect my advancing units w/ supportive anti-MC/Small Vehicle fire. I chose 2 Vypers for this list to provide both advancing units the heavy supportive fire if need be.

One Falcon is a transport primarily, and the other is another support unit. The Fire Dragons will be smashed in the transportive falcon, ready to take out Oblits, overly couragous vehicles, terminators, and even very important/high scoring infantry. Hopefully, whenever the fire dragons are on the table outside the Falcon, my enemies will think twice before assulting them...I want my jetbikes and warpspiders ready to spray any incoming or remaining assult.

Second, I want to share what type of opponents I will more than likely face.

From what I can tell from the last few tournaments, there will be 3 or 4 players of pure space marines. More than likely, 1 standard force w/ lascannon squads and tanks, 1 biking marine army, and 2 or so obscure non-traditional landspeeder/2dreadnaught type forces. Usually, there is only 1 tyranid and 1 orc player. The other enemies will more than likely be Chaos (all types of armies, including DP, Lash, Oblits, ect) and of course more Eldar players. Laslty, there is a serious gamer that I consider to be my hardest opponent of IG/Sisters of Battle army, which often uses the IG to shoot and Sisters to Counter. I have never faced 1/2 of the opponents, so that is all I can provide...should be enough.

Fluff Inc!!! Fluff Inc!!! Fluff Inc!!! (Time is of the essence, but Fluff Inc!!!)

Thank you for any help/advice/critique/ect you can provide, it all helps!

DevilsReflex wrote:

First, I will explain my army's strategic elements as they relate to my overall tactica.

you dont need to you took 2 falcons you win by default

Why 12 man guardian, not 10 man, and where is Eldrad?

What list does the Tyranid play? I can think of several that would eat this, but that does depend on the player being competent. If he isn't then I don't think it matters which models he brings :-)

Does he actually assault with the Sisters, or use Seraphim? ... Seraphim are actally 12" shooting troops that can hide in a melee when the plasmaguns come out looking for them. Canoness with Eviscerator is OK in assault but that's about it, really.

Can you elaborate more on what the marine "unconventional 2 dread/landspeeder" army is? It sounds a lot like either random junk, drop pod marines or some Blood Angel lists.

I think you're short on firepower but will reserve judgement until I have more info about your local metagame since you are clearly tailoring this force to the local armies.

Farseer = 88 Fortune, Singing Spear

I find the Spear pretty pointless on a walking Farseer. Also, he really ought to have RoW. The metagame is currently full of nasty psykers.

Guardians x12 = 111 Scatter Laser
Guardians x12 = 111 Scatter Laser

As the above poster asked, why 12?

Guardian Jetbike x6 = 152 Shuriken Cannon 2x

Why not two squads of three?

Harlequins x8 = 198 Shadow Seer H Kisses 6x

Since you have a spare Falcon, I think it would be a good trade to drop two Harlies and give yourself the option of embarking on it. You'll be glad of the option when you face a FotA libby or podders/IG drops.

Ok, on the falcons take EML on both, the weapons you have do not share the same targets with the pulse laser and thus do not belong in the same unit as the pulse laser. (I feel like a broken record I keep saying this on all my posts..) Drop the wraithlord and get another falcon. I like your elite choices, just remember to keep the fire dragons in cover to threaten any kind of high save cc thing of death coming at you: DP, HT, AM..those sort of things. Ditch the singing spear it's not useful for a walking farseer. Make the guardian squads 10 man and drop the spiders to get another with a scatter laser. All of tegeus-cromis's pointers are also valid.

Don't take eldrad, he is a huge point sink but for some reason people love him and I can't figure out why.

Ok, on the falcons take EML on both, the weapons you have do not share the same targets with the pulse laser and thus do not belong in the same unit as the pulse laser. (I feel like a broken record I keep saying this on all my posts..)

Really? You've been saying this in all your posts? I feel remiss, then, for not having noticed and corrected this in the past. As long as we're talking about 4th ed (and I gather that the OP is), an EML is a terrible weapon to put on a Falcon, as you can't fire both it (in krak mode) and the Pulse Laser while moving.

In 5th, fair enough. In 4th, stay well away.

Drop the spiders and get another falcon.

Why drop the Spiders? In case you haven't noticed, he has a WL in his current list, which he would need to drop if he wanted a third Falcon.

In any case, tri-Falcon is kinda boring, don't you think?

Don't take eldrad, he is a huge point sink but for some reason people love him and I can't figure out why.

He is and is not a points sink. When all you need is a basic Fortuneseer or Doomseer, then yes, he is a points sink. When you have need of multiple powers, however, he's an excellent buy. A Farseer with Doom, Fortune, RoWard and Spirit Stones is 145 points. For 65 points more, you get Eldrad instead, who can't instakill himself, has an amazing save, can cast three powers (two of which can be the same), and is actually decent in CC. I use him in every list as I run a Guardian-heavy army with Avatar and he has always proven his worth.

Alright a few things to cover here. Yay!

1. As for the 12 man guardian squads, just thought that they would last longer and might be harder to keep from scoring... that is my only reasoning, so if it's not a good idea let me know.

2. 6 Jetbike squad- I could easily turn this into 2 Units, perhaps for more scoring? The only thing I thought would be advantageous about 6 JBs would be the less likely hood of breaking and running 3d6. Thoughts here?

3. I would consider putting 6 Harlequins in my falcon, saving a few points, and then maybe adding supplements to my squads (like warlocks or 4 man JB units). I have concerns surrounding what would protect the Guardians from assults, that's my idea at the moment for the Harlequins.

4. Not dropping the Spiders. Not taking EML on the Falcon. Not taking another Falcon.

5. No points for Eldrad, and he is unfortunately banned from this store's tourneys. :(

6. Maybe you're right about the RoW and Singing Spear; but, what configuration to take on if I switch out points?

As for the Tyranid player, he takes tons of genestealers. I haven't ever played him, but he does not win regularly, and is the youngest player. The Marine players w/ 2 Landspeeder and 2 Dreadnaugh armies often just hide till the last few turns, then pop out and outshoot their opponent for maximum points.

Please, more advice is great! I'd love to continue this analysis, any help helps!

If the marine is playing VP Denial (hiding, then popping out to score on turn 6), you're better at it. You have a lot of skimmers, bikes, Falcons etc, all of which score.

Eldrad kicks ass because of his redeployment ability. So many games are won and lost in deployment (although many players don't notice ... hehe). Also him having 3 powers (and can use one twice) and being hard to kill helps greatly.

If its tons of Stealers, it might have "Scuttle" so you need to be on guard for turn 2 assault --- Eldrad REALLY helps here with his re-deployment option. I mean really, really helps. If I had to make Stealer Shock I would be playing 2 tyrants (1 melee, 1 devourers); 2 carnifex (heavy guns); a couple of raveners; 24-30 stealers. The possibilty of Zoanthropes and a pack of Neelixgaunts exists, depending on local metagame.

Warp spiders are actually quite effective.

Pack Vibrocannons in the remaining heavy slot if you are expecting a horde, or VP Denial. This won't work for everyone. I can't guarantee you will have success with it, but those things are better than they look vs walking hordes. The key is to have them on the flanks so their shot passes across the whole enemy army, striking multiple units.

1. As for the 12 man guardian squads, just thought that they would last longer and might be harder to keep from scoring... that is my only reasoning, so if it's not a good idea let me know.

Well they're not useless, but don't you have better uses for the points?

2. 6 Jetbike squad- I could easily turn this into 2 Units, perhaps for more scoring? The only thing I thought would be advantageous about 6 JBs would be the less likely hood of breaking and running 3d6. Thoughts here?

More scoring, more flexibility in targeting/speed-bumping, easier to hide. As for morale, look at it this way: if you have 2 3-bike squads, one casualty in each squad means a morale check, and each one you fail causes 2 bikes to fall back. If you have one 6-bike squad, two casualties in the squad means a morale check, and if you fail it, 4 bikes fall back. 4 casualties from the 6-bike squad puts them below 50%, and 2 casualties from each 3-bike squad puts both below 50%. Is there a big difference? When you consider that most volleys will destroy more than just one jetbike, I'd say the advantage goes to the 3-bike squads. The only real downside is that with 3-bike squads, losing 3 bikes loses you a shuricannon, whereas a 6-bike squad only loses shuricannons with the 5th and 6th casualties.

Overall, I'd go with the smaller squads, at least for 4th.

3. I would consider putting 6 Harlequins in my falcon, saving a few points, and then maybe adding supplements to my squads (like warlocks or 4 man JB units). I have concerns surrounding what would protect the Guardians from assults, that's my idea at the moment for the Harlequins.

If anything, I'd say the Harlies are even better at that when they're sitting in the Falcon. It means there is no way your opponent can get rid of your counter-assault barring lots of AT and some lucky rolls. Of course, if it looks like your opponent is better able to threaten your Falcon than Harlies on foot (i.e. he has no good way of getting around VoT and he has plenty of AT), then you simply leave them disembarked for that game.

If you dropped two Harlies, four Guardians and the Singing Spear, you'd have 80 points to spend. I'd suggest dropping 15 pts on the RoWarding, leaving you with 65. Now, I'm a fan of Warp Spiders and use them myself, but in my experience, you don't need such a large squad. With the dual spinner Exarch, a 6-person squad suffices. Drop two Spiders and now you're up to 109 points, enough for a third 10-man Guardian squad with SL (I'm assuming you have a spare squad which is where the extra 4 Guardians were coming from). There's no really good way to spend the last 14 points, so I'd just get whatever. Maybe upgrade the first Falcon's weapon if you can, and the Farseer can keep his Spear just for kicks.

It seems like every Chaos list I face, there is always psychic abilities present. The best piece of kit I always take is Runes of Warding. Dropping 2 Guardians would cover this cost.

If points are tight, you can drop the Spear. As he will be near the Avatar, you will already have a S8 melta weapon w/ a 12" range.

Albeit controversial, when I field my Harlies as a counter assault unit (as it appears you will be doing), I take a Death Jester. It's 3 S6 shots at BS4 than can pin. Not great, but for 10 points, it's been worth it. Playing styles may differ (plus, he's just plain cool looking).

From my experience, though this may be obvious, the games I've had the most difficulty winning are when someone snuffs my Avatar. He is such an anchor for my centerline and losing the Fearless bubble really has crippled my army (one of our locals will field 12 missile launchers and 12 assault cannons in a 2000 point list). While the Avatar is expensive and you want him to get involved, be mindful of positioning so you don't risk losing him outright, especially early in the game.

Good luck. Let us know how it fares.

I'm in favour of the DJ when it comes to footslogging, pure counter-charge Harlies. As I've said, though, I don't think there's a good reason to field them that way when there's a perfectly good Falcon just lying around asking for passengers. The flexibility of being able to take the fight to the enemy when needed or of simply protecting the Harlies from FotA or DSers is more valuable than the extra shuricannon.

"Why drop the Spiders? In case you haven't noticed, he has a WL in his current list, which he would need to drop if he wanted a third Falcon.
In any case, tri-Falcon is kinda boring, don't you think?"

I corrected that mistake in 3 seconds after posting, sorry for not being fast enough.

I think this whole game is boring I'm just trying to tell people how to win.

What I've been saying is how people shouldn't mix weapons with different purposes not that all falcons should have eml.

Here is a revised list based on the feedback thus far.

HQ:

The Avatar of Khaine = 155
Farseer = 100 Fortune, Runes of Warding

Troops:

Guardians x10 = 95 Scatter Laser
Guardians x10 = 95 Scatter Laser
Guardian Jetbike x3 = 76 Shuriken Cannon
Guardian Jetbike x3 = 76 Shuriken Cannon

Elites:

Fire Dragons x6 = 96
Harlequins x6 = 192 Shadow Seer, Troup Master, Death Jester, H Kisses 5x


Heavy Support:

Falcon = 195 Scatter Laser, Vectored Engines, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones
Falcon = 195 Scatter Laser, Vectored Engines, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones
Wraithlord = 155 Bright Lance,Eldar Missle Launcher

Fast Attack:

Vyper = 65 Eldar Missle Launcher
Vyper = 65 Eldar Missle Launcher
Warp Spiders x8 = 193 Exarch, Extra Death Spinner


TOTAL: 1749 Points, 13 Scoring Units, 53 Models

As you can see, I incorperated a few elements that others have commented on. I split the JB's into 2 squads for more scoring and versitility. I also like the idea of having to hammer-hitting falcons w/ heavy cargo! Gonna try that. Decided to stick w/ 8 spiders, and went w/ Runes of Warding. 10 man squads for guardians, the other 2 per squad were just uneffective as described by others. Death jester and troup master to the smaller, more potent harlequin squad...was thinking of trading the troup master for some fusion pistols?

Now, my falcons have an additional role. More than likely, the falcon w/ the dragons needs to move quickly. The harlequin falcon will stay hidden from major fire, while having percise targets to assist the vypers. Please, more tactica help!

What do you think?

I really think you should do as t-C said and squeeze the points for another 10 man guardian squad. Even with the fearless I would be concerned with just a sheer lack of men.
Something I almost always do is a simple mathhammer with my lists. Part of this comes from plenty of games where I was just out manned... I simply take the total cost of my army and divide it by the number of models. At your current build you average 33pts per model, I always try to get enough cheaper troops in there to have my ppm down to 28 or less. Might seem kinda weird but it works for me, and has been a good tool to help me control bloat I might not even realize is there. I think its why I love my guard and Orks, I do that little bit of math now and my ppm is like 10-12 lol.

Points per model??? In all my years of playing 40K, I've never come across this line of thinking (but, I'm also not claiming to be some 40K expert either). It's picqued my interest and I'm going to start looking into it, not only with my armies, but my opponents as well. I think it would be interesting to see what kind of correlations can be drawn from it. Great food for thought....

I have never analyzed forces that way in 40k either. More than often I think of things in terms of Points-Worth VS Points-Earned.

Other than that, there are quite a few things I'm still curious to hear opinions on. To reiterate a few:

1. If I add another guardian squad, where should I pull the points? and, should I keep all 3 Heavy Weps to Scatter Lasers?

2. Would my harlequin squad be better off configured a different way? Fusion pistols or something?

3. In general, what would you expect to see from an opponent that was using a list like mine, what should I avoid?

Thank you guys, for any and all input!

1. If I add another guardian squad, where should I pull the points? and, should I keep all 3 Heavy Weps to Scatter Lasers?

2. Would my harlequin squad be better off configured a different way? Fusion pistols or something?

3. In general, what would you expect to see from an opponent that was using a list like mine, what should I avoid?

1. t-C has the best advice in this regard.

2. 6 man with kisses and shadowseer is the most efficient. Cheap for what the can do and simply cannot be ignored. No real reason to add fusion pistols or a DJ. troupe master, there's arguments for including him with the PW, especially in 5ed, but he is not needed.

3. It really is mission and terrain dependent. I think the main thing would be over-commiting the Avatar. He isn't invincible and is important in keeping your firebase stable.

1. I've gone over the points issue, but as for the heavy weapons, I don't know. It is so difficult to make pronouncements on how much AT/anti-horde is enough because environments differ. The SL is a great weapon, but if you need more AT for this tourney, you need more AT, and that's all there is to it. Only you can make that call.

2. 6-clowns (including Seer), all with Kisses, is the best config for Harlies who may or may not be going in a Falcon. If you're sure you'll be slogging it (i.e. you'll be fielding more than 6 Harlies--not my recommendation, as I said earleir), then a DJ can be worthwhile. If not, it's best to avoid him, as he's useless in a Falcon. A Troupe Master will be worthwhile in 5th but is not currently. It just doesn't add enough killiness for the points, and actually gimps you against vehicles (should you need to assault them) and some MCs. Fusion pistols are neat, but too expensive for a weapon you'll use so rarely.

3. It so happens that my build is pretty similar. I think winterman's advice is generally sound, but sometimes it's good to leave the Avatar out in the open. I like to make sure he's visible (and Fortuned!) the first turn, because it's almost impossible to down him in a single turn of shooting (one BS4 lascannon has a 14% chance of successfully taking a wound off). If he takes even a single wound, I hide him after that, if terrain allows. You have a Wraithlord to help limit LoS to him, so that helps.

Warp Spiders are tricky to use. It's too easy to get them wastefully killed and too easy to be so cautious that they achieve nothing. I use my min-sized bike squad to run interference for them, nobly sacrificing themselves to create handy LoS-blocking melees. Tac Marines without a PF are surprisingly bad at killing even three guys with a similar profile.

Guys, thank you all so much for your input! Here's what I did with your comments, and how I did in the tournament!

1. I Put the new 6 man, cheaper Harlequins in the Falcon.
2. Changed the Falcon weaponry to accomidate these changes.
3. Split the bikers into 2 squads of 3.
4. Removed SS from Farseer, added Runes of Warding.

I kept the weaponry of the Guardians and the Vypers the same, and they did well .

Tournament Quick-Summary:

The first game I played was against a standard Chaos tournament list, misson was Recon. DPs, 1 heavy tank, 2 Oblit squds, and tons of Plasma pistols and the like could not make it to my deployment. As a quick summary of this game, he fell right into the hands of the Fearless bubble, and my Bubble of guys and the wraithlord intercepted the incoming scoring units. The Falcons, their infantry cargo, and the jetbikes/vypers all scored for the vicorious Eldar.

The second game was unfortunate for the Eldar, but not so bad. The opponent fielded 2 squds of biker Orcs and 1 Infilitrating squad, misson was Loot Counters. The Eldar Bubble was swarmed by the 2 packs of bikers, despite moving their damndest to give as much fire on the bikers before they hit as possible. The Avatar and Wraithlord/Guardians and Warpspiders held the first squad of bikers and infilitrators for 2 turns. Lost the bubble, but turned 3 scoring units into 1 for the enemy. He scored w/ his 685 point biker squad, and I scored w/ 2 falcons and cargo. An unforutnate 550 point loss; however, this guy won the tournament.

Third game was the Eldar's revenge game. Seek and Destroy. Eldar opponent fielding 2 Falcons/3 war walkers and a ton of Pathfinders. I charged his 480 points worth of scouts in the second turn w/ Warpsiders/Jetbikes/Harlequins. After the firedragons manhandled a Falcon to imoobliization, and the Avatar destroyed it...game was pretty much a manhandling. I lost 3 Guardians total. Massive victory against another Eldar force.

4th place out of 16, thanks a ton guys!!!!!

All of the information I was given was helpful, thank you all!!!!