Switch Theme:

Team ATL once again (1850)  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





We are heading out to another tournament today. Detailed lists and results Results later this weekend.

I'm bringing my Daemons
Player A is bringing his Destroyer Necrons
Player B is bringing his Flying Circus Eldar
Player D is bringing his Eldar
Player E is bringing his Orks
We have a newcomer, not sure what he's bringing, I think its Nids.

All in all, fact is that Warhammer 40K has never been as balanced as it is now, and codex releases have never been as interesting as they are now (new units and vehicles and tons of new special rules/strategies each release -- not just the same old crap with a few changes in statlines and points costs).

-Therion
_______________________________________

New Codexia's Finest Hour - my fluff about the change between codexes, roughly novel length. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






.................................... Searching for Iscandar

Let us know how bad your demons did, assuming you meet quality opponents who don't lose the game setting up.

   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Good luck to you and your friends, enthusiast! I'm looking forward to more batreps. : )
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I'd like to echo Stelek's comments, but not in quite so confrontational and condescending a manner.

BYE

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






.................................... Searching for Iscandar

Sorry. I hate when angry aussies put me in my place.

Better than calm rationalists like T-C. What frigging place is he from? Bleh so embarressing. It's probably an easy one. lol

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The Venue: As usual Dicehead's tables were entirely sufficient to the task. The terrain was alright and the place was in a mall, so food and such was not an issue. Could have used more chairs, and I'm never a fan of tables next to one another so that you are essentially sharing your standing space with the guy on the table behind you, but these are old gripes.

The Field: For a second time, we were about half of the available field. Obviously not a desirable state of affairs. Let's hope that more people show for the next one.

The Prizes: Amazing prize support as usual, they gave out 225 dollars of store credit for prizes, and everything was 20% off. Their were also plaques for the overall winner, the best painted and the most sportsmanlike.

The Scoring: 15 bp's for a win, 10 for a draw, 5 for a loss, up to 3 bonus points (and 2 negative bonus points) in each mission, for getting a unit in their deployment zone, killing their general and keeping your highest point unit alive, while the negative ones were for not taking a quarter and not destroying or reducing below half any enemy unit. On top of the BP's their were a LOT of soft scores. Functionally a whole 4th games worth or more. You got some from your opponents, some from the organizer, etc.

Our lists:

My List:

Herald of Khorne w/Chariot, Icon
Herald of Khorne w/Chariot, Icon
Herald of Khorne w/Chariot, Icon
Herald of Khorne w/Chariot, Icon
6 Bloodletters
6 Bloodletters
6 Bloodletters
6 Bloodletters
5 Bloodletters
5 Bloodletters
5 Flesh Hounds w/render
5 Flesh Hounds w/render
5 Flesh Hounds w/render
2 Bloodcrushers
2 Bloodcrushers
2 Bloodcrushers
1 Daemon Prince w/Mark of Khorne, Iron Hide
1 Daemon Prince w/Mark of Khorne, Iron Hide
1 Daemon Prince w/Mark of Khorne, Iron Hide

My evaluation: I'm bringing a fluffy list, so sue me. It had to happen sometime. I imagine I'll find success vs. anything that doesn't like to fight and relies on shooting to keep out of it, failure vs. anything that can simply move away from me, and a good fight vs. anything that wants to take me in combat.

A's list:

Deceiver
10 Warriors
10 Warriors
5 Destroyers
5 Destroyers
5 Destroyers
2 Heavy Destroyers
2 Heavy Destroyers
2 Heavy Destroyers

(I may have made an error, he might have dropped 3 Destroyers instead of 3 Heavy D's, in which case he'd be 12 and 9 instead of 15 and 6. I didn't play him so I'm not certain)

Evaluation: A mean Necron list, it'll stuff Nidzilla and Trifalcon Eldar, and have trouble with twin-lash chaos and Drop Pod Fear the Darkness marines. Orks can also be a concern, as I discovered in the last round of the invitational. Overall though, this is an excellent list. I prefer the Immortal heavy variant, but this is the same basic idea, and superior in some ways.

B's list:

Eldrad
Avatar
10 Dire Avengers w/Exarch, Bladestorm
10 Dire Avengers w/Exarch, Bladestorm
6 Harlequins w/Shadowseer, troop leader w/ power weapon
6 Harlequins w/Shadowseer, troop leader w/ power weapon
6 Harlequins w/Shadowseer
1 Falcon w/all trimmings
1 Falcon w/all trimmings
1 Falcon w/all trimmings

(Some of the falcons were slightly upgunned, didn't get specifics)

Evaluation: Along with Nidzilla, one of the tournament scene's king lists for the past year. Reviewing it is sort of pointless, who doesn't know how this list does? It's Trifalcon Eldar.

D's list:

Eldrad
Autarch w/banshee mask, other stuff
6 Fire Dragons
8 Harlequins
Dire Avengers w/Wave Serpent
Dire Avengers w/Wave Serpent
Pathfinders
Vyper
Holo-Falcon w/all trimmings
2 Vibro-cannon battery

My evaluation: Seems like a fine list, if not a recognized internet template for victory. I'm not crazy about Wave Serpents, but I've seen the Doom-Bladestorm combo take out enough units not to dismiss it out of hand. There isn't anything in here I'd sneer at (except the autarch on foot, wtf?). but it doesn't seem like it has a k.o. pattern beyond the 8 man Harlequin squad going crazy with Hit & Run. Still, I guess not everything needs to be some sort of gimmicky death combo, and this army's soft scores (good painting) give it a lock on overall if its remotely near the top.

E's list:
HQ:
Warboss on bike, cybork body, attack squig, power claw, etc etc.
Big Mek w/ SAG


Elites:
13 Lootaz
9 Tank bustas, not sure what upgrades
20!! Kommandos with Snikrot

Troops:
12 Trukk boyz w/ Nob, boss pole, PK, trukk
12 Trukk boyz w/ Nob, boss pole, PK, trukk
30 Shoota boyz w/ Nob, boss pole, PK

Fast Attack:
Buggy with TL rokkit
Buggy with TL rokkit
Buggy with TL rokkit

Heavy Support:
Battle Wagon, 'Ard Case, pie plate, TL-big shootas
Looted Wagon, pie plate
Looted Wagon for tank bustas
F's list:

I'm unsure of F's list to the point that I won't even speculate. I didn't witness any of his games, and he was in the other car so I couldn't really hear how his list was put together. I think it was a fairly standard Nidzilla list. Good stuff.

The First Game:

The Mission: Cleanse II.

My Foe:

Space Marines (Ultramarines, in fact)
Chapter Master, fighty gear
Chaplain, fighty gear
Veteran Assault squad, jet packs, master crafted power fist sarge, furious charge
Veteran Assault squad, jet packs, master crafted power weapon sarge, furious charge
Tac Squad, las plas
Tac Squad, las plas
Tac Squad, las plas
Tac Squad, las plas
Devastator squad, missile launchers
Predator w/autocannon, heavy bolter sponsons
Predator w/twin linked lascannon, heavy bolter sponsons
Scout squad w/sniper rifles, missile launcher
Scout squad w/sniper rifles, missile launcher
Landspeeder

My assessment:
While not the min/maxed shooty death you think of when you think shooty space marine, I feel that this is a respectable list. He's got 2 counter attack elements, decent anti-vehicle with all the lascannons, and decent anti-horde with all the bolters, launchers and heavy bolters. They aren't going to be all that hot at this cleanse mission, but it's a decent stand and shoot list to try my list out verse. Stand and Shoot marines are one of the lists I feel like my Khornate daemons can really mangle, so I'm interested in seeing if that's true. Those armor 13 tanks have me a bit worried though.

The game:

He deploys in a pair of mutually supporting firepoints well back in his deployment zone, with the tanks in the middle. Stuff is pretty spread out to stop me from going unit to unit if I start massacre-ing, and he hasn't left any blind spots I can sneak an Icon in near him and be out of LOS.

I split my army into armored (chariots, crushers, princes) and unarmored (letters, dogs) halves and try and get the armored half in first. I succeed with a 4, and breathe a sigh of relief. This could have been ugly if I got the wrong wave in. As it is, I'm deploying ten units of 4 t5 3+/5+ wounds apiece. I just drop them right in front of him. 3 units scatter back out of assault range, and one scatters to about 3 inches away from its target unit, but basically we are all set to go. I end my turn, declaring my belief that shooting phases are for sissies.

He opens up, has a pretty good shooting phase, blowing away 2 units of crushers and a Herald on chariot. He also launches charges with both veteran assault squads. One of those is something of a stalemate, as he puts 3 wounds on a herald who strikes back and kills 3 marines, and the other one is atrocious, as the bloodcrushers take one wound and cut down his whole squad, massacreing into charge range.

On my turn I charge his line with khornate chargers in 4 places, and some of the out or range guys rush in to help out my embattled Herald. From this point on the game is over. In truth, it was probably over before setup, but I'd never actually seen Marines go down this fast. Everywhere a khornate unit touched his units he died, which left him with less shooting to stop more charges. It was a cascading failure of epic proportions, worse than anything I've ever seen anywhere. Even genestealers don't go through a marine list as fast as these Khornate guys did. 8 man tac squad charged by 2 Bloodcrushers and a Prince? Gone. It's like this everywhere, all the power weapons go through the Ultramarines like a chainsword through a deck of cards.

I sort of figured this would be the outcome, but actually seeing it is something else. This style Daemon list hits Marines like a sledgehammer. There are so many units that they can't possibly shoot everyone down, and all the ones that aren't dogs are utterly fatal to even the fiercest Space Marine.

(Funny things that happened during this game: the only Space Marine who walked away from this massacre was a tac squd member who killed every Bloodletter that approached him, seriously this guy was Rambo. Another amusing thing was that there was a tower in his deployment zone, and we agreed that a 6 on a terrain role was needed to climb it. I sent my general (a herald on chariot) over to krump the scouts who were sitting up on top, and he rolled that six. There was a moment of silence, followed by chuckling, as we both realized that my guy had apparently driven a chariot up a tower wall.)

Player A's game:

Player A took on a 13th Company list, and as usual with assault lists the combination of Necron firepower and the Deceiver's ability to mangle enemy assault elements was decisive.

Player B's game:

B took on a Daemon list that was much less fluffy than mine, with a Soul Grinder, Lord of Change, Blood Thirster and other stuff. Apparently the other player was much more timid in his Deep Striking, and B was able to isolate and destroy the army in detail. He was enthusiastic about the fierceness of the Greater Daemons though, and apparently the Soul Grinder "phonebooked" a Falcon, but honestly, how often does Trifalcon Eldar lose a Cleanse mission?

Player D's game:

D took on some Iron Warriors, a battle of two well-painted lists. Despite all the Obliterators and the Lash Prince the Harlequins got into the IW lines, and that was apparently that. A fierce fight, but ultimately a win for D.

Player E's game:

E's Orks took on some Nids, which I'd seen around but which were apparently being lent to the person using them by the other Daemon player. In a battle of 2 Hordes in a cleanse mission the winner is he who puts the inevitable scrum in the opponent's zone, and E was able to do that.

Player F's game:

F took on some IG. They only got 3 rounds in, but basically the IG just stood and shot, so they were only in their own quarter. F had been rushing, and was therefore in all quarters.

Round 2:

Well, unfortunately, we had all won our games, and we were half the tournaments, so we all ended up facing off with each other. We've got to bring less people to these small tournaments, or some of us need to start losing to locals. Driving hours to play the guys you see each week is dumb.

The Mission:

Secure and Control, Gamma

The enemy:

Player D's Eldar!

My assessment: I loathe Eldar, and a teammate's Eldar is what skunked me out of the Gastonia tournament. (though that was B in round 3). I simply don't have anything in my list to handle skimmers, and he's got 4 (Vyper, 2 Wave Serpents and a Holo-falcon). This means that in round 6 he's going to stick them all in the center and double-score with the Vyper and falcon, and I can't do a thing about it. If I kill everyone else though, I might be bale to have more points than he.

I win the role and give him first turn, since that steals a shooting phase and I'm not going to be able to attack the skimmers before they get moving without a shooting phase. He basically marches into the middle. Eldrad holding the center, with Fire Dragons and Dire Avengers on one side, Dire Avengers and the Vibro Cannons on the other, Snipers infiltrated ahead and Harlequins dancing around in front. Gah, that 8 man unit is going to be a pain.

I divide my army into Heralds, Crushers and Hounds vs. Letters and Princes. I want the Princes protected from the early pain so that they can punch the skimmers once he starts fortressing in the center. Also, the Hounds are pretty cool things to have running about on turn 2, the ability to lock up everything is pretty key. My watchword vs. Eldar is that they are only permitted one shooting phase with their infantry.

My Deep Strikes go pretty well, I get him surrounded by my forces, though I lose a Hound unit.

As he's starting his shooting phase he asks me "What's most dangerous, what should I shoot?" Lying through my teeth I reply..."The Hounds". So he duly vaporizes my remaining Hounds, which lets my Crushers survive to charge. That basically means he's not going to have any infantry left very soon (though, probably the Hounds would have done the same thing...and wouldn't have had to dread the DT tests...maybe I inadvertently gave him good advice? That'd ruin my rep.) His Harlequins (who are Not Fortuned, because he's out of his mind) rush out and massacre one of my Heralds...but he gets cute and tries a double-charge, which permits one of my other Heralds to swing on his unit. Heralds of Khorne hit Harlies on 3's and wound on 2's...you shouldn't give them free assault phases. Though, I was just going to charge him anyway...its arguable either way.

So, for my turn, I bring in a bunch of letters (5 units, to be precise), and a Daemon Prince, and assault all over. I put a new Herald into the Harlies who are fighting one already, and another one attacks Eldrad (mainly to shut down the dang psychic powers) Elsewhere a surviving Blood Crusher charges one of his units of Dire Avengers and an undamaged pair charges another. This goes about like you'd expect, with the Eldar getting the worst of it. One of his units actually breaks and gets massacred, which surprises me as I'm so used to the avatar that I just sort of thought Eldar were fearless. In the battle with the Harlies my guys lose one of our heralds, but kill enough to win combat. His remaining 3 Heralds Hit and Run out.

He doesn't have much he can get up to, but he dooms some letters and shoots them down with his skimmers. He sends the Harlequins in to rescue Eldrad (who perils himself a wound), they fail to do this with some substandard rolling and on my next turn the Letters are charging in a bunch of places. My general herald rides up to his autarch, suffers through the power weapon plinking and beheads the dude with one shot, consolidating into his Fire Dragons. The Daemon Prince punches a Wave Serpent and it falls from the sky.

The remainder of the game goes bout like you'd expect, with us eventually drowning the Fortuned Eldrad in khornate daemons and getting him through sheer volume, while his remaining skimmers box it up in the center. I never did send someone to kill the dang vibro cannons, and they reap a fierce harvest on my Letters. The big surprise of the game is that on the last round my guys rush his skimmers in the center and bust them all. First punch to the falcon is a glancing 5:5, settling it down for everyone else to tear open. I end up with around 4 units remaining on the center, to his one artillery unit hanging out on a corner. I beat an Eldar list!

In all fairness to my foe, this was his first time playing vs. Daemons, and I rolled well on my invulnerable saves (though poorly on my "to hit" rolls). Still, bu-yah! I'm never playing Eldar again, just declaring Khornate victory for all time!

A's game:

A plays B, and Necrons slaughter trifalcon Eldar, as they do. Only dying to 1 in 9 glances is useless vs. a list that outputs 12 per round, and Harlequins can't catch jetbikers or survive the Deceiver's countercharge.

B's game:

See above

D's game:

See above

E's game:

E played F and got him, I don't have the details of the game, but apparently the Orks came out on top in the battle of the swarm with the Nidzilla list.

F's game:

See above

Round 3:

The mission, Seek and Destroy, Gamma

My Game:

B's Trifalcon Eldar! (2 round 3's in a row? WTF?)

My assessment: There's simply no way to win this one if he plays correctly. Fortunately, he's not yet worked out the proper way to play this. Unfortunately it's a big enough list disparity that I've been tabled both other times I played this matchup. I'm probably going to see a repeat today. Frak! I've got 2 wins and he's got a win and a loss, why do I have to play this guy? 2 Tourneys in a row! Honestly.

He sets up in a piece of terrain, with the Dire Avengers on both sides, Eldrad and the Avatar in the middle, and the 3 Falcons just kind of sitting around nearby. He wins the roll to go first, and elects to make me go first.

I split my force into armored and unarmored halves, (crushers, princes and Heralds are armored) and choose to get the armored half. I joke that I ought to choose to get the unarmored half, since I'm overdue to roll a one or two. I roll the dice and promptly get a 2. Doh.

I drop the Wolves back behind some terrain, and then do the same for a Bloodletter unit, before I come to my senses and begin dumping the rest all around him. He's lost the Warp Spiders since crushing me at 2k, so he can annihilate one less unit. Dropping those units far should really hurt me though, as now I'm only surrounding him with ~5 units, instead of 10 as I'd prefer.

One his turn he moves all his falcons. I nearly jumped up and cheered. It seems that he thinks he doesn't need to get his Harlequins out after I've flubbed my deployment this badly. They should never have been in the Falcons to begin with, but the longer they stay there the longer I have to get in on his infantry mobs. Further, he's got the backs of 2 of his Falcons where my dogs might reach it, thereby blocking 2 of his units from coming out even in the next turn. I salivate at the prospects.

He makes another mistake in the move phase that is going to cost him, as his shifting about of the Dire Avengers to get good fire arcs has eliminated the chance for his Avatar to get into combat. They are simply in the way, and fleeting them will cost him their shots, so that's right out. This means his threats on my 5 letter squads are 2 units of bladestormers and the falcons weaponry. He manages to kill 3 units, but the 2 which remain have charge distance on his 2 Dire Avenger units.

They move up and charge in, while the hounds rush the Falcons. A bad fleet roll leaves on hound unit unable to block the full hatch of one falcon, so I'll be seeing 2 Harlequin units next round, rather than one. I get 2 Heralds, 2 Crushers and 1 Prince in, all of whom drop around the various combats. The dog units actually manage to tear a scatter laser off one of the Falcons, which is pretty cool.

His counterattack is pretty devastating, but critical mass has been reached, and he's never going to be able to get those Dire Avengers to fire again. The remainder of the game is fierce hand to hand combat wherever I can manage it, and ultimately I'm forced to use Eldrad/the Avatar as a bunker to hide from the Falcons guns. We get the avatar when he can't be fortuned (due to Eldrad being in battle), and we get the Harlequins by triple charging each unit, one at a time. The dogs are the real heroes of this game from my viewpoint, rolling up at just the right moments into each combat, and one packleader heroically made all 3 5+ saves to keep a combat locked on a critical round.

As the game rolls to an end Eldrad is dueling 2 Heralds of Khorne, while 3 Falcons drive around and cheer him on. I lose due to Falcon points (and in fact Eldrad is more points than both his foes), but its a morale victory to kill all those dang Eldar. Also, much like the previous battle's successes, it'll never be repeated, so why not enjoy it while I can? Most of all, I wasn't tabled, which is a big step up for this matchup.

A's game:

A played E, and got phased out. Snikrot came in on round 2, as he does. Details can be found in his batrep at: http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/40k-battle-reports/123764-1-850-necrons-5-24-dicehead-tourney-report.html#post1165656

B's game: B crushed me

D's game: D put a beat down on some nids, same ones as E got in the first round.

E's game: See above

F's game: F battled the Daemons B had faced in his first round, and was able to see them off. I don't have any details about this game.

Tourney results:

D got best painted
A local got best sportsmen (the 13th company player)
E got Best Overall

All in all, an enjoyable tournament, if with a bit of a sparse field. I had a good time, got good data on the performance of the new Daemons, just about finished with my Khornish experiment.

All in all, fact is that Warhammer 40K has never been as balanced as it is now, and codex releases have never been as interesting as they are now (new units and vehicles and tons of new special rules/strategies each release -- not just the same old crap with a few changes in statlines and points costs).

-Therion
_______________________________________

New Codexia's Finest Hour - my fluff about the change between codexes, roughly novel length. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






.................................... Searching for Iscandar

Well at least your locals will go with you to a tournament. I go, and nobody wants to go. lol

So if I'm reading this right, against experienced opponents you'd have pulled off a 1-1-1 or a 1-2?

I'm assuming you didn't really playtest the demons much, or at least not the khornate ones...re: your comment about being surprised how fast marines die to crushers. It was amusing, to say the least.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





My Khornate Daemons went 2 wins one loss this tournament, with the wins being vs. a Marine player who hadn't faced Daemons before and an Eldar player who hadn't faced daemons before, both of whom I'd say had adequate lists and good knowledge of how to play their own lists. The loss was vs. trifalcon Eldar, played by a gentlemen who had played Daemons before.

Last week they went, again, 2 wins one loss, with the wins being vs. Orks and Drop Pod marines, and the losses being vs. the Trifalcon Eldar player.

So, 4-2 in actuality, if everyone had played completely optimally I'd say I'd probably be 3 and 3, as the Eldar player I got in round 2 of this one probably could have got me. The Orks were never going to win in Escalation, and the Drop Pods and Stand and Shoot Marines lost via matchup.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/05/26 17:37:06


All in all, fact is that Warhammer 40K has never been as balanced as it is now, and codex releases have never been as interesting as they are now (new units and vehicles and tons of new special rules/strategies each release -- not just the same old crap with a few changes in statlines and points costs).

-Therion
_______________________________________

New Codexia's Finest Hour - my fluff about the change between codexes, roughly novel length. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






.................................... Searching for Iscandar

Right. Marines should always lose, unless they are heavily mechanized (in my honest opinion, demons were built to slaughter marine lists).

Escalation is going away, and in fact if you play the new reserve mission (the 5th edition version of escalation) and end up going first in 5th--well, it's gonna be a test of wills that's for sure.

   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

40kenthusiast wrote:I'm never playing Eldar again, just declaring Khornate victory for all time!

I support this

Thanks for the report 4KE, makes me happy to read about pure Kr0n demons stomping on things. (Un)fortunately it's got me more excited to drop the fantasy I'm working on and revive my old blood demons all the sooner :S

I like your "drop all the 3/5+ armor first" tactic. Up til now I've just considered equally dividing my army (which is almost exactly symmetrical) so either drop is just as good / bad as the other ...

- Salvage

KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



Brotherhood of Blood

Daemons are having a tough go against veteren players right now. Always having to deep strike half your army lets more experience players set up a castle with expendable units up front to prevent sweeps into the rest of your army. Unless the terrain is heavy to block fire lanes I see D-armies really struggling to pull out wins and when they do they are not massacres but minors.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



Brotherhood of Blood

Three Falcons in the right players hands in 4th are probably impossible to win against with a Khorne assault force. This is the one list I can't beat with my BA assault force. Although I have enough shooty elements I can take down 1-2 of them but never all three. I applaud you for trying though and 5th should make it easier to destroy those skimmers in assault.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






.................................... Searching for Iscandar

You can shoot the crap outta tri-falcon in 5th edition and take them down.

Unless it's eldrad/farseer tri-falcon then just kill yourself.

   
Made in us
Devious Space Marine dedicated to Tzeentch




Stelek wrote:You can shoot the crap outta tri-falcon in 5th edition and take them down.

Unless it's eldrad/farseer tri-falcon then just kill yourself.


Eh, just attack them in that case. Hitting on that armor 10 combined with no SMF/cover saves is going to be their Achilles Heel, it seems. (Or just attack the Seers)

Either way, the list itself just won't be quite as brutal as during 4E because of those scoring unit changes. When I saw that the first round of that tournament was alpha Cleanse against a Daemon army with a total of 10 units, I knew I pretty much had an auto-win, barring something going just catastrophically wrong. That won't be the case soon.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






.................................... Searching for Iscandar

You can tank shock them off the objectives last turn, carrying a scoring troop unit, with your falcon.

Rangers ftw.

Lame, but true.

Isn't that the same as now, different actors same play?

Note: I don't play this way, but I hear others do.

   
Made in us
Devious Space Marine dedicated to Tzeentch




Partially true, but not totally. It's not exactly like you can tank shock them out of a table quarter (usually), though you could still deliver troops for a draw.

But the big difference is (unless I read it wrong) that random game length will be standard. So you're not totally sure the "last turn" will actually be the last turn. You could tank shock them off the objective and drop off 6 Rangers, but if there's another turn, whatever you just tank-shocked charges into a squad of 6 T3, 5+ save guys and most likely reclaims the objective. It could still be a game-winner if the game ends that turn, but it will at least force some additional tactical thinking instead of just knowing your opponent can't respond to what you do. Should help alleviate the problem somewhat.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Well, you can score from inside a vehicle in 5th, so no real reason that you can't proceed as usual, just with rangers inside.

All in all, fact is that Warhammer 40K has never been as balanced as it is now, and codex releases have never been as interesting as they are now (new units and vehicles and tons of new special rules/strategies each release -- not just the same old crap with a few changes in statlines and points costs).

-Therion
_______________________________________

New Codexia's Finest Hour - my fluff about the change between codexes, roughly novel length. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Will 5th edition bring anything to the table that lets Marines fight Daemons successfully?

Seems like the tactics for Daemons are relatively straightforward, drop army in front of enemy and charge, and you win every combat automatically. Will this make 40k a better game??

Change in consolidation rules in 5th editin might make firepower more effective against Daemons.....

Good thing I have the Falcons.....
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Smurfs are my first army, they haven't been at the top of the GT charts though in many years. So, seeing the ease with which half a Daemon army takes them apart (and I confess, I didn't even buy the Codex) is fairly upsetting.

It is possible that the matchup of Vanilla Marines vs. Daemons is entirely hopeless. But, I wondered if the first Ultramarine opponent could have played just a bit better, or modified his army in minimal ways that might have given him more of a chance in the first game. I've used the Sniper/Scouts for fun, they can be very effective against Tyranid MC's for example. But, they have negligible hand to hand capability, poor saves, and slow rate of fire.

So, first question, did the player use Stelek's 'Deep Strike' Defense, and would it have helped?

Second question: Did the Librarian and Chaplin have jump packs? Can Librarian Force Weapons kill Large Daemon creatures?? Would Two Librarians have been better than the mixed pair, and did either accmpany the assault squads into combat.

Third question: What is the Mathhammer of a squad of assault marines attacking the various Daemon units as done in this game. Were the assault marines armed with plasma pistols or flamers, and would he have been better off shooting the Daemons rather than charging them?

Fourth Point: Related to the opening quesiton about deep strike defense. Would the Marine player have been better off using one of his assault squads as a screen on turn one to decrease the number of charges possible on turn two. Related to the Deep Strike Defense because the DSD postulates a corner castle deployment.

Fifth: Should the SM player have considered Tank Shocking some of the Daemons backwards, does this even work against Daemons. Again, the idea being to keep the shooters shooting and out of hand to hand.

Six: Was the Marine Players first turn attack pattern optimal. That is, which unit type should he have focused his shooting on, and did his assault marines attack units which they COULD kill, or units against which they were almost certain to die (in which case, why bother....).

Is the mathhammer for Terminators any better against Daemons than for ordinary Space Marines?

Hope some of the better players will pitch in. Ed Maul used to play Marines once, or so I heard.....


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






.................................... Searching for Iscandar

40kenthusiast wrote:Well, you can score from inside a vehicle in 5th, so no real reason that you can't proceed as usual, just with rangers inside.


If you blow the vehicle up, they emergency into the vehicle and score.

If you immobilize it or less, it lands and/or does not die, they score.

I did say it was lame.

   
Made in ph
Fresh-Faced New User





I will be moving to Atlanta in the next six months. Anyway I can get in contact with your gaming group? I play guard by the way.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





@pinoy: You've got mail!

@Mikeguth:

I don't think things are quite as bleak as they might seem from this batrep for the smurfs. My entire army was made of Khornate daemons, which are specifically adapted to prey on SMs. A competitive Daemon list, while stronger overall, would probably not be as lethal to SM's as my list was.

First question: No, he didn't use that, but it probably wouldn't have assisted too much. My understanding of that formation is that it primarily defends against enemys who drop and shoot, by forcing them out of rapid fire/melta range of your precious stuff. Against Hand to Hand enemies it is likely just as good as a tighter clump, so long as both move and shoot appropriately.

Second question: The Chaplain had a jump pack, he leapt into battle along with his squad, they were the unit which furiously charged the Herald on Chariot, dealt it 3 wounds, but it swung back a little more fiercly than normal and killed 3 or 4 Marines. I think the pseudo-Mathhammer for that fight is something like:

I6, FC charging Chaplain swings 5 times, hits 4 times with rerolls, wounds twice, Herald makes one save, then at I5 squad of 6 swings 18 times, hits 13 times, wounds 7 times, Herald takes 2 wounds, swings back 4 times, hits 2 or 3 times, deals one or two wounds. The Herald survives and holds the squad in place, a counterattack from some other Khornate unit obliterates the marines.

The Master just stood around making everyone ld 10, which didn't really help as they were getting obliterated by charging Khornate units, rather than needing to make leadership tests due to 25% shooting casualties. He ultimately held up a Bloodcrusher unit by countercharging, but I think he should have been out there with one of the initial assault squads.

I'd say that an assault marine is better off counterattacking rather than shooting his pistol (though that ought to be done prior to charging in if there's no danger of shooting yourself out of a charge, of course) Flamers are no use against Crushers/Heralds/Princes, but would do fine vs. dogs and letters.

I'd say the SM player could have absolutely done some Tank Shocking. His Predators were extremely effective all game at shooting, but they should have been combining that with some judicious shoving around of Daemons. The only thing they needed to beware of was rear charges and Princes, but judicious movement could have helped out with that.

His first turn pattern was not optimal, but optimal play would not have helped out enough. There were just too many t5, 3+/5+ save wounds up close to him.

Terminators mathhammer vs. Khornate Daemons is much worse than ordinary marines. The Terminators are paying for their armor, which doesn't work, and for their powerfists, which have to contend with invulnerable saves everywhere. Terminator shooting is still excellent, but in fighting they get diced by Khornate guys.


All in all, fact is that Warhammer 40K has never been as balanced as it is now, and codex releases have never been as interesting as they are now (new units and vehicles and tons of new special rules/strategies each release -- not just the same old crap with a few changes in statlines and points costs).

-Therion
_______________________________________

New Codexia's Finest Hour - my fluff about the change between codexes, roughly novel length. 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Battle Reports
Go to: