Vampire Counts - Flying Circus - 2k

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**Stelek**

So this was my first attempt at a VC list.

Figured I might as well share.

If it isn't obvious, it's a rush list. I wanted reasonably high strength on the vampires so high armor doesn't stop me easily.

It's a little better than the normal dragon herohammer I think, given how coin flip that kind of army can be.

2000 Pts - Vampire Counts Roster - Batty

1 Vampire @ 175 Pts
General; Hand Weapon; Undead
1 Sword of Might @ [15] Pts
1 Armor of Night @ [25] Pts
1 Talisman of the Lycni @ [10] Pts
1 Hunter in the Dark @ [25] Pts

1 Vampire (Battle Standard Bearer) @ 215 Pts
Hand Weapon; Battle Standard Bearer; Undead
1 Flying Horror @ [30] Pts
1 Avatar of Death (Two Hand Weapons) @ [20] Pts
1 Screaming Banner @ [40] Pts

1 Vampire @ 150 Pts
Hand Weapon; Undead
1 Flying Horror @ [30] Pts
1 Avatar of Death (Great Weapon) @ [20] Pts

1 Vampire @ 150 Pts
Hand Weapon; Undead
1 Flying Horror @ [30] Pts
1 Avatar of Death (Great Weapon) @ [20] Pts

1 Varghulf @ 175 Pts
Causes Terror; Hatred; Regenerate; Undead

1 Varghulf @ 175 Pts
Causes Terror; Hatred; Regenerate; Undead

20 Zombie Horde @ 80 Pts
Hand Weapon; Undead

20 Zombie Horde @ 80 Pts
Hand Weapon; Undead

20 Zombie Horde @ 80 Pts
Hand Weapon; Undead

9 Fell Bats @ 180 Pts
Flyer; Undead

9 Fell Bats @ 180 Pts
Flyer; Undead

9 Fell Bats @ 180 Pts
Flyer; Undead

9 Fell Bats @ 180 Pts
Flyer; Undead

Total Roster Cost: 2000

**Cogito**

Lord with Avatar of Death(Lance), Red Fury, Hatred, 2+ Armor save, Hand of Dust - breaks a unit by himself.

I use my lone flying vampires with the same kit except give them power stones or dispel scrolls. They come in very helpful.

Try taking ghoulkin on your standard bearer(or one of the other vamps), and use ghouls instead of zombies. This will give you a first turn charge. Good for catching people off balance, taking the tempo of a game where you need to be dictating what is going on.

With undead flying circus units you can not break(cause fear, immune to psych, unbreakable) will be extremely difficult to deal with. A straight up vamp count army wrecked my flying circus.

Also, word of advice, don't have anything fighting by itself. Varghulfs are great, with backup.

**General_K**

Mmm....lots of vampires...

...and lots of summoning

I'm not sure though about so many single units running around, as was mentioned. Vamps are great, Vargulfs are scary--but I agree, only when supported. Zombies aren't going to provide that support, since they'll take forever to get to where you need them on the battlefield (while everything else flew up to meet the enemy 3 turns ago)

**Player-A**

You going to have your flying vamps join the fell bats...? It's pretty much the only way to get a look out, sir! from a cannon ball. Or just prevent them from getting shot up by enemy troops considering they're only T4 with a 5+ save. If you do that, though, you're risking losing combat from people attacking the bats - they're very easy combat res with a bad WS, low tough, and no save.

And don't bother with ghouls / ghoulkin. The vamps themselves cannot win a combat alone, and first turn charging will see your opponent flee, then counter charge / shoot the crap out of the vamps all out on their own.

**dogma**

The only way to get a first turn charge with ghoulkin is through danse, which can't be fled from.

**Player-A**

dogma wrote:The only way to get a first turn charge with ghoulkin is through danse, which can't be fled from.

Eh? On both counts!

With ghoulkin, you start your vamp in a ghoul unit and march 8"... then with flying, you charge out of the ghoul unit 20". Effective range is 28", so that's a first turn charge if they deploy close to their line.

Also, you can flee from VHD. VHD states you get an 8" move (regardless of the normal movement rate), which can be used to declare a charge. It doesn't state that the unit charged gets no reaction like the Lizardman banner.

**Stelek**

Uhh yes the vampires will be sufficient.

You seem to be under the impression this is a first turn charge army. It is a second turn charge army.

Flank + outnumber + vampire hits = snake eyes.

Should be able to beat two blocks down then start chewing the army up.

**dogma**

@Player-A: Or you do what everyone that uses ghoulkin does and make the free march, march again, and then danse in. 24 inches of range while keeping the vamp protected. As for the charge reaction, that's my mistake.

@Stelek: I don't see how you're going to outnumber any of your targets. Especially since those fellbats, your only major US source, are not going to be making it to the enemy intact. Moreover, the bats are almost more of a liability than a boon as they offer easy combat-res to the unit you attack.

**Stelek**

I could do that.

It's escapable and beatable.

My version, you run...you're dead.

You stay, you're usually dead since you cannot fight the vampire on the flank with a challenge...and vampires are hurty in CC.

Not to mention everyone causes terror. If you run, well, you die and I redirect to another unit.

**Stelek**

Hmmm aren't fell bats on monster bases for US2?

Even losing 2 of them, that's still 16x2 isn't it?

**Zoned**

No, Fell Bats are Flying Units (skirmishers,) so they are all US 1.

Your army has a cool theme, but I think you might be overestimating the Vampire Heroes. With only 3 attacks and no Hatred, you are banking quite a bit on dice.

Zoned

**Stelek**

True. It is a gimmicky army.

Like all fantasy armies.

**Player-A**

dogma wrote:@Player-A: Or you do what everyone that uses ghoulkin does and make the free march, march again, and then danse in. 24 inches of range while keeping the vamp protected. As for the charge reaction, that's my mistake.

And that works how? There's >24" between you. Your opponent would have to go first and move up in order for that to work. And moreso, you're relying on being able to get off a spell in order for your charge to work (and putting yourself in enemy charge range if you fail to cast it). Not exactly ideal.

**Antonin**

Stelek wrote:If you run, well, you die and I redirect to another unit.

Only if you could not have seen that next unit until the first one died... no charging the entire enemy army sequentially!

**jmurph**

A vamp with 3 attacks will most certainly not break a standard RnF unit. Even in the flank. (He doesn't negate ranks and starts down more attacks than he has). Even a Lord With Dreadlance is no guarantee of 5 kills (but Dreadlance and Red Fury mmmm.....). Without any re-rolls, all of your combat characters are very risky.

Fell bats die horribly in combat, but do Invoke for d6. Zombies are junk- slow and easy to kill in massive quantities. Varghulfs are good support. Problem is that you don't have much to support.

I can see shooting and magic being a major problem for you. T4 and 5+ save won't hold up very well. The Lord is a bit better off against shooting, but T5 6+ save means anything decent will shred him pretty quick. Cavalry are a particular danger. Charging a ranked unit first turn with him is suicide.

I don't understand your strategy. The bat units are US 9, the characters US 1. I guess if you poured everything into a unit it would work. But then you might be in a rough spot.

And most *good* fantasy armies are reliable, not gimmicky. Gimmicks tend to make people not want to play you as they tend to either win or lose spectacularly with little room for middle ground. From the lists I have seen you post, it may benefit you to stop trying to be novel and concentrate on effectiveness and what might actually be fun to play and play against.

**Stelek**

Antonin wrote:
Stelek wrote:If you run, well, you die and I redirect to another unit.

Only if you could not have seen that next unit until the first one died... no charging the entire enemy army sequentially!

Correct, I know how charging works lol. It's not like fell bats are large targets. It's easy to setup multiple charges with the fell bats. I call it screening my LOS. What do you call it?

**Stelek**

jmurph wrote:A vamp with 3 attacks will most certainly not break a standard RnF unit. Even in the flank. (He doesn't negate ranks and starts down more attacks than he has). Even a Lord With Dreadlance is no guarantee of 5 kills (but Dreadlance and Red Fury mmmm.....). Without any re-rolls, all of your combat characters are very risky.

Fell bats die horribly in combat, but do Invoke for d6. Zombies are junk- slow and easy to kill in massive quantities. Varghulfs are good support. Problem is that you don't have much to support.

I can see shooting and magic being a major problem for you. T4 and 5+ save won't hold up very well. The Lord is a bit better off against shooting, but T5 6+ save means anything decent will shred him pretty quick. Cavalry are a particular danger. Charging a ranked unit first turn with him is suicide.

I don't understand your strategy. The bat units are US 9, the characters US 1. I guess if you poured everything into a unit it would work. But then you might be in a rough spot.

And most *good* fantasy armies are reliable, not gimmicky. Gimmicks tend to make people not want to play you as they tend to either win or lose spectacularly with little room for middle ground. From the lists I have seen you post, it may benefit you to stop trying to be novel and concentrate on effectiveness and what might actually be fun to play and play against.

Actually I find fantasy an incredibly boring dull game. It's like playing chess. I move my pawns (blocks of troops), you move yours. We take each others pawns. WOO FUN!

Btw, you did not seem to read the part about flank charging so I'll reiterate it.

2 fell bats (with 2 vampires) move forward in the middle.

2 fell bats (with 2 vampires) move forward on one side.

When I charge, I will gladly charge multiple units as necessary.

Now let's see:

10 on the front, 10 on the side.

Let's say you kill 4 bats, and my vampires only kill 2 troops and the bats another 2.

So we're even.

You have a standard.

We'll call outnumbering even.

So I'm down 1.

I have a flank.
You have no ranks.

So we're even.

What if I hit with 2 units in the front? I do 2 more wounds, and I outnumber...wait a minute, what if I hit with 4 units?

It is an option, even if it is one I don't plan on using that much.

I'm just saying you pick and choose your fights.

You want me to run herohammer, it seems. How is that fun? How is that not the other list I posted?

I don't like blockhammer (it's boring). I don't like herohammer--for the very reasons you quoted.

I can make plenty of armies that aren't blockhammer or herohammer. Like this one.

The way I see it, I should play what's fun for me--always. If that means my rock beats your scissors, maybe you should play a different kind of army?

You've got to remember the guys I play against, play all the power combos off the internawts they can lay their hands on.

Herohammer, blockhammer...either way, they don't play weak lists. If I play what I consider a weak list vs my other armies, but one that they'll at least play...haven't I accomplished my goal?

**Antonin**

Stelek wrote:
Antonin wrote:
Stelek wrote:If you run, well, you die and I redirect to another unit.

Only if you could not have seen that next unit until the first one died... no charging the entire enemy army sequentially!

Correct, I know how charging works lol. It's not like fell bats are large targets. It's easy to setup multiple charges with the fell bats. I call it screening my LOS. What do you call it?

I call it "my dwarfs eat your fellbats" but your mileage may vary.

**Antonin**

Stelek wrote:Actually I find fantasy an incredibly boring dull game. It's like playing chess. I move my pawns (blocks of troops), you move yours. We take each others pawns. WOO FUN!

Okay! We're done here. You think chess is an incredibly boring dull game? I have now firmly established that your opinions are +edit not any concern of mine edit+, and will use this as exhibit A any time I need to reinforce that concept.

Hey, what do you think? Is Scrabble too wordy?

**Stelek**

Of course you do.

A dwarf player giving criticism.

Ah, dakka gives and it gives.

Can I call it 'my fellbats take your shooting for a turn, you stop one from charging with the anvil, and 3 units breaks a block then runs behind your blocks killing all your warmachines while you mill about passing terror tests'?

Just to be a little more realistic.

Dwarves suck, ya know.

**Antonin**

Actually, I was thinking of the times my war machine/character combos have beaten fellbats in combat, after having put their shots into other parts of the VC army.

I don't run the Anvil.

Though I will agree that given the newer army books, Dwarfs are having a harder time than before

**Stelek**

Antonin wrote:
Stelek wrote:Actually I find fantasy an incredibly boring dull game. It's like playing chess. I move my pawns (blocks of troops), you move yours. We take each others pawns. WOO FUN!

Okay! We're done here. You think chess is an incredibly boring dull game? I have now firmly established that your opinions are worthless, and will use this as exhibit A any time I need to reinforce that concept.

Hey, what do you think? Is Scrabble too wordy?

Yes. I found memorizing over 5,000 common chess openings, the 100 or so popular gambits, and my generally strong inquitive play made chess boring for me.

Either there was no opposition, or I ran into a pro who lived off it.

Much like my poker conundrum, I don't have the desire or the scratch to go 'pro' and I can't get local games in anymore as I'm considered a hustler...and I rarely play.

Anyway, sorry, chess is boring for me. Hopefully you'll take your own invalid preconceptions and reconsider them.

Scrabble has it's own dictionary which contains only about 110 thousand words.

A normal dictionary has about 300k.

So no, I don't think Scrabble is too wordy.

I used to have most of the words memorized, but don't anymore. Lost interest many years ago.

You do realize both are games I disdain because I find no challenge in them?

Maybe you still like Sorry! or Rummy.

**Stelek**

Antonin wrote:Actually, I was thinking of the times my war machine/character combos have beaten fellbats in combat, after having put their shots into other parts of the VC army.

I don't run the Anvil.

Though I will agree that given the newer army books, Dwarfs are having a harder time than before

Hmm warmachine crews with characters, always funny to see that. Is this before or after your blocks are beaten because they can't overcome combat resolution because dwarves don't kill anything?

I guess my concept of winning against your warmachines is this:

Your character kills 2.
I kill 2.
I outnumber and cause fear.
You don't roll snake eyes.

I win.

**Etherdude**

You've got no magic defense and a pathetic offense.

All your points and chance of winning are in 6 T4 5+ AS characters.

Flee moves will make your life difficult, as will anything which gets in the way of your combined charges (fast cavalry).

List of armies which will stomp you:
2nd gen. slaan (missile platform picks off vampires)
daemons
empire (cannons will snipe off characters, 1+ knights, lots of nasty shooting)
dwarfs (organ gun, anvil and flaming cannons)
wood elves (dryads, fast cav and enough shooting to keep you honest)
star dragon (hits harder and moves as fast/faster, asf will mess up your bats)
skaven hordes (ratling guns and numbers, with enough units to flee and leave your fast guys to be lit up)
royal air force (as fast, hits harder and is much tougher)

Looks like you missed again; keep on trying to find something to impress the internet with.

**Player-A**

Stelek wrote:
Antonin wrote:
Stelek wrote:If you run, well, you die and I redirect to another unit.

Only if you could not have seen that next unit until the first one died... no charging the entire enemy army sequentially!

Correct, I know how charging works lol. It's not like fell bats are large targets. It's easy to setup multiple charges with the fell bats. I call it screening my LOS. What do you call it?

Apparently neither of you do, heh. There's no more of that you can only redirect into something you couldn't see before your target fled... it's now the enemy in the way.

Stelek wrote: So we're even.

You have a standard.

We'll call outnumbering even.

So I'm down 1.

I have a flank.
You have no ranks

Uh, Skirmishers don't deny ranks, so you're actually a little more in the hole than you thought.

**Stelek**

Somehow me making a friendly list has degenerated into how it's not a power list.

Grab hold of the friendly aspect please.

Thanks.

**Stelek**

Etherdude wrote:You've got no magic defense and a pathetic offense.

All your points and chance of winning are in 6 T4 5+ AS characters.

Flee moves will make your life difficult, as will anything which gets in the way of your combined charges (fast cavalry).

List of armies which will stomp you:
2nd gen. slaan (missile platform picks off vampires)
daemons
empire (cannons will snipe off characters, 1+ knights, lots of nasty shooting)
dwarfs (organ gun, anvil and flaming cannons)
wood elves (dryads, fast cav and enough shooting to keep you honest)
star dragon (hits harder and moves as fast/faster, asf will mess up your bats)
skaven hordes (ratling guns and numbers, with enough units to flee and leave your fast guys to be lit up)
royal air force (as fast, hits harder and is much tougher)

Looks like you missed again; keep on trying to find something to impress the internet with.

Wow, you can get in the way of flyers with fast cav?
Wait...you can pick off vampires, say it ain't so. Duhhhhh.
Empire is a shooting army? Really?
Wait, dwarves shoot too?
Wood elves don't have shooting, but it's amusing you think so. Wait I know, treemen?
A star dragon moves faster than other flyers? Can you show me the rules?
Ratling guns that I charge and crush, and then I'm in the middle of the blocks...wait a minute, you sound like you don't know anything but BLOCKHAMMER.
Yep, bret air cav...immune to psychology. OH SNAP.

Looks like you're still an asshat. Don't know much but the obvious, and you still fail to grasp this is a FRIENDLY list.

Meaning something I want to play, and lose with.

D o y o you g e t i t ?

D .u .rr .rr . :S

**Stelek**

Oh this is for you, Ether. I'm not perfect, but your crappy attitude is way worse than mine.

dienekes96 wrote:
Da Boss wrote:Dakka is a great place because differences are tolerated, while still allowing great freedom of speech. No other website I've been to has this kind of atmosphere, and I really enjoy it.
I'd never endorse the banning of any member. I do think Dakka is a very different site than it used to be when I joined some 7 years ago. It used to be the premiere site, focused on every aspect of the hobby. It's now very much become the competitive gaming website, which makes it incredible useful, but fundamentally different. Like Robert Heinlein before me, I believe manners are the lubrication of society. Dakka used to have the most impressive modeling forum on the web. Numerous Golden Demon winners posted here (and I mean the Sword winners), before and after their wins. Lots of full army posts, and they would get dozens of good, critically useful replies in hours. I know Grey Death is working very hard at restoring some of that luster. But that left for quite some time. Dakka was where folks (including portent) came to get rumors. That's shifted as well.

The tone of Dakka got sharper, and sometimes Dakka became an e-peen wagging session, the irony of which was not lost on plenty of long term folks who contributed at numerous levels. Some of whom are gone for good. Not because they couldn't "hang", but simply because it wasn't worthwhile.

I think Dakka has tremendously improved under Yak, finding a nice balance. It's primarily competitively focused, the best on the net at that. I think the aggressive tone that works in YMTC/Tactics doesn't always work in the broader hobby sections.

As for people's egos? How they present themselves is their choice, but the reputation of Dakka hinges on the behavior of their members. I know some enjoy the reputation of the shark pit, but I think a broader membership base is a good thing. Watching someone strut their stuff on a wargame is too similar to someone bragging at being great at Madden. What's interesting (and great) is that relatively few of the very good players here do that. The ones that do stick out. It's nice to be great at something. It's nice to share that with fellow gamers. It's stupid to think it matters in the real world.

So let's be civil, and leave the "I'm the best Candyland player in the world" stuff for the cretins. And it shouldn't have to be the mods. Membership sets the tone.

As the immortal Dalton said, "Be nice. Be nice until it's time not to be nice."

**ghostmaker**

How is fantasy boring ? ? it takes more tatics and thinking then 40k.

40k you move shoot charge

**dogma**

Player-A wrote:

And that works how? There's >24" between you. Your opponent would have to go first and move up in order for that to work. And moreso, you're relying on being able to get off a spell in order for your charge to work (and putting yourself in enemy charge range if you fail to cast it). Not exactly ideal.

Nor is any first turn charge. They'e risky by they're very nature. If they weren't there would be no point in playing any other way. Also, if you can't get a single Danse off when you need it then your VC army has already lost.

@Stelek: You posted a list for criticism. Criticism was offerred and you rejected it out of hand. Why did you even post the list at all? You're army is frail, doesn't hit hard, and isn't even terribly fast or flexible. You have 6 real targets in the army (no one will even look at the zombies) and any reasonably competent player will take massive advantage of that fact. Your entire plan turns on being able to engage single regiments with at least 2 of the bat swarms; something which will be very difficult against an oponent who has any kind of numerical advantage. This is simply a bad list. Boring to play against for its simple lack of capability.