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How's this look?

If I've got it right, I can cast invocation 15 times per turn on a 3 plus.

Got two units of fell bats for warmachines, and howling banshees in slightly smaller cairn units.

Good bad ugly?

2000 Pts - Vampire Counts Roster - Cairn

1 Vampire Lord @ 370 Pts
General; Level 3 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Undead
1 Nightshroud @ [20] Pts
1 Dark Acolyte @ [30] Pts
1 Lord of the Dead @ [15] Pts
1 Master of the Black Arts @ [50] Pts

1 Vampire @ 145 Pts
Hand Weapon; Undead
1 Dark Acolyte @ [30] Pts
1 Lord of the Dead @ [15] Pts

1 Vampire @ 145 Pts
Hand Weapon; Undead
1 Dark Acolyte @ [30] Pts
1 Lord of the Dead @ [15] Pts

1 Vampire @ 160 Pts
Hand Weapon; Undead
1 Black Periapt @ [15] Pts
1 Dark Acolyte @ [30] Pts
1 Lord of the Dead @ [15] Pts

9 Skeleton Warriors @ 110 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield; Undead
1 Banner of Hellfire @ [10] Pts
1 Skeleton Champion @ [16] Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield

9 Skeleton Warriors @ 100 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield; Undead
1 Skeleton Champion @ [16] Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield

9 Skeleton Warriors @ 100 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield; Undead
1 Skeleton Champion @ [16] Pts
Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield

6 Cairn Wraiths @ 375 Pts
Great Weapon; Causes Terror; Ethereal; Skirmishers; Undead
1 Tomb Banshee @ [75] Pts
Causes Terror; Ethereal; Undead

6 Cairn Wraiths @ 375 Pts
Great Weapon; Causes Terror; Ethereal; Skirmishers; Undead
1 Tomb Banshee @ [75] Pts
Causes Terror; Ethereal; Undead

3 Fell Bats @ 60 Pts
Flyer; Undead

3 Fell Bats @ 60 Pts
Flyer; Undead

Total Roster Cost: 2000

Against this, my elves would:

1) Send the ancient at one of the cairnwraiths

2) Ignore your blocks of units

3) hail of doom the other unit of wraiths

4) send in waves of dryads and then wild riders to deal with the other wraith unit

5) hang back until turns 5/6 to assassinate the vapires with any surviving dryads, wardancers and wild riders.

6) have the waywatchers keep your blocks from moving

7) use glade guard to make you keep wasting invocations on the skellies

8) everything which can shoot will whittle down the bats

So all in all a one trick pony which will do well against standard ranks 'n' flanks armies, but heaven help you if you run up against something with solid magic or enough speed to nab the wraiths before you get your combo charges off. I like it in that you're not trying to break the book, so hats off to you for that.

Cheers

Wild riders? Can I giggle? Sorry just foolin. I find them a very difficult unit to use.

How does #6 work?

How does #7 work?

You have to remember it's geared up for standard ranks n flanks armies, people seem to think I can't win without avoiding ranked units.

So, I'll make a nice army for them to dance with, and crush them the "fair" way. Anything to shut them up really.

Oh and have fun doing it.

I still think if I hide my army I can do well even against your plans, maybe?

Actually, I kinda like the list. It should be a lot of fun to play, but it does have a couple of weaknesses depending upon who you end up matched against, I think.

Firstly your main damage dealing element is, of course, the two units of Wraiths. Be careful when playing skaven since they have so much in the way of magical shooting attacks. Not totally insurmountable, of course, but something that you'll have to take into consideration in setup and movement.

Also, there is the potential against a powerful shooting list or one with lots of warmachines that one or two of your skeleton units could get shot off the board first turn if you end up going second (before you can beef them up with invokes). Once again, not totally insurmountable, but something that needs to be considered during setup.

As to the prior poster's numbers 6 & 7, I believe he means the following:

6. March blocking the skeleton blocks by using speed to keep out of charge arcs and fleeing if you danse at them.

7. Lots of shooting at the small units forcing you to invoke them to keep them alive and preventing you from invoking the wraiths to keep them up.

I could be wrong, though.

Ah now it all makes sense.

Thank you.

I can't believe I actually said "alive" when referring to your skeleton units....

They ARE alive.

Oh and most of the local skaven players mysteriously retired when their bs guns got nerfed.

Not saying they're hypocrites who can't handle a needed nerf but...

Assuming a Demons FAQ comes out with the answer the GW Devs gave Direwolf, then any time you come up against a Demon Army with the Standard of Sundering and a a small smattering of Tzeench you're going to regret that you spent 800+ points on Characters with the expectation that you'll get to "raise" your army in the first two turns.

Why?

Stelek wrote:Why?

The supposed ruling coming out of the Design Team is that the Standard of Sundering (-2 to cast of all spells from a chosen lore) will affect Invocation of Nehek, which means that your plan of being able to spam the 3+ to cast IoN on your Skelly blocks to bring them up to fighting strength isn't going to go over so well. When I say "with a smattering of Tzeench" I mean a Tzeench Herald or two with the mandatory Core Choices being 3 units of 10 Horrors, who then generate 1PD and 1DD, giving them the Magic defense needed to shut your much needed magic phase down.

And at the same time that you're trying to get your units up to strength you have to deal with the (now non frenzied) Blood Thirster and Flesh Hounds that are going to get crammed down your throat on turns 2-3.

Yeah, as a VC player, I'm really not looking forward to Tzeentch heavy Daemon lists. They are one of the lists that have a legitimate shot at shutting down my magic phase, even with 14+ power dice and 4 bound spells.

Tzeentch is magically powerful, always has been.

However, as far as I know, I'm the only local player to ever run Belakors fun Tzeentch army.

I try to explain Tzeentch magic > High Elf magic, but people don't believe me.

By the way, I heard about that ruling. Which lore is Invocation? Right, it isn't a lore.

Stelek, I kinda agree with you about IoK since it is nowhere defined as being in the "Vampire" lore. Unfortunately, rumor has it that a "clarification" will be published by GW that will place it in the "Vampire" lore.

Stelek wrote:Tzeentch is magically powerful, always has been.

However, as far as I know, I'm the only local player to ever run Belakors fun Tzeentch army.

I try to explain Tzeentch magic > High Elf magic, but people don't believe me.

By the way, I heard about that ruling. Which lore is Invocation? Right, it isn't a lore.

It's not about Tzeench being "magically powerful" it's more about taking his units (and Heralds) to give a tiny amount of offense and a hell of a lot of defense to an otherwise lacking Khorne army.

Wait that's not true, the Flamers are sick too.

And as for the "Lore" of IoN, sure looks like it's part of Lore of the Vamps to me, but then I'm not trying to use RAW to keep something from bringing an otherwise top tier list down. Given what's been said by the Developers, I wouldn't count on that loophole staying open for long.

In the spell it clearly says 'Necromancy' where you'd find the lore.

I doubt GW is in a loophole closing mode these days, to be honest.

Stelek wrote:In the spell it clearly says 'Necromancy' where you'd find the lore.

I doubt GW is in a loophole closing mode these days, to be honest.

And you "Clearly" couldn't cast IoN into Combat either, without the FAQ coming out. RAW flows both ways, and while you can sit here and deny it all you want dude, it doesn't change how pissed I'm sure you'll be if/when they do FAQ it and don't change their minds.

Personally I'm of the opinion that it is affected by the Standard, but my interpretation doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot. All I'm telling you is that the question was already posed to the Dev team and that was the answer that was quoted from them; given how the last round of FAQ's went you can take that however you want.

Hmm I don't know how it's clear to you you can't, but I see how alot of people bitched and moaned so a FAQ was released. lol

As I run both VC and Daemons for power gamer tournaments, I guess I could comment this one.

The Vampire Lord is poorly equipped, as are all three other Vampires. The three powerful items you want in a VC army are Drakenhof Banner, Helm of Commandment and Skull Staff. Take one and you have a fairly competive army. Take two and you're rolling. Take all three plus a Black Periapt, Ghoulkin and a scroll or two and comp monkeys will cry cheese. The worst of the comp monkeys will quote you the 'punch you in the stomach and steal your army case' tagline. I won't explain the always taken items here as they should be self explanatory to all serious wfb gamers.

Additionally, it's pure idiocy to run Skeletons when you can run Ghouls that are not only a thousand times better in a competitive environment (especially when under effects of Danse) but can also get free march moves before game starts. Kills are always better then static resolution, not to mention the fact that banners are an extra 100 VP liability.

As far as the Cairn Wraiths go, they are hit and miss. They are unbelievably powerful when you get a mismatch and the enemy is running a weak and unprepared force and you will massacre the opponent without a moment's thought. A friend of mine recently won a tournament by running both two units of Wraiths and a huge regenerating Black Knight train. The thing is, VC will massacre unprepared opponents even without the Wraiths. The problem here is that the Wraiths are pure garbage vs people who know what they are doing and know what to expect.

My 2K Daemon army is running (whenever named characters are not allowed)

Bloodthirster with scroll, flaming s7, re-rolls, armor of khorne
3 flying Heralds, two with Master of Sorcery one with Power Vortex, one with Banner of Sundering
3x 10 Horrors
2x 5 Furies
2x 6 Flamers

Basically there isn't a tournament VC composition that can give me a hard time. I know it for a fact since I've meddled with VC for three editions and run the most powerful VC lists for the current edition. Of course the game has evolved in a more rock paper scissors direction as it has before. There are lists that give the Daemons hard time but less so for VC. In this case the fact is that the Daemons have a GD that VC essentially can't kill, and an army that has flaming attacks all around, roll 13-14 dice of magic each turn and can pick lores from the rulebook (lores of beasts and light are the most common choices), give lore of Vampires -2 to cast, run 8 or more dispel dice and a scroll, and nuke with 12 x D6 flaming and magical shots each turn, VC have finally found their nemesis. Aside of Daemons, I think Empire gives the VC the second hardest time.

Against a VC army like Stelek's in this thread, he won't have any other models left except one or two Skeletons here and there by turn four or five. It's a whole different discussion altogether how VC might be able to 'tool' against Daemons. Most experienced generals consider it nearly impossible because Sundering, mass dispel dice, immunity to psychology and flaming attacks all around are too big obstacles to overcome reliably. Some generals consider it a very interesting matchup. Even that is said a lot, since a lot of people consider VC completely over the top and not only imbalanced but unfair. Personally I don't think VC are unfair, but they are a little too easy to play with the regeneration against crumble and WS7 wherever the going gets tough. Invocation on one dice with huge casting values (+2 to every roll) and Danse on 2 dice plus the re-casts doesn't make the situation any more fun for non-VC players.

What I as the VC player would do to battle Daemons is invest in extremely mobile characters, meaning only M9 and flying ones, and masses of Ghouls. Ghouls are easy to raise (atleast untill the Invocation is FAQed to belong to the Lore of Vampires) and won't give a lot of points away to most Daemon units, and the mobile characters can run or fly for their sorry lives. It might be possible to salvage a draw or a minor loss out of the game if you select a proper VC army for the job and never risk your characters and just play points denial through the whole game. VC can try to hang in the game by 'trading units' with the Daemon player, for example by sacrifing a few hitty Vampires to take out Flamers. It depends a lot on terrain too, and even with heavy terrain it won't look good. Flamers are simply too mobile gun platforms, and a Bloodthirster is suddenly a lot more dangerous when he has two or three guys casting The Wolf Hunts on him.

P.S.

To Voodoo Boyz:

The Flesh Hounds are an amazingly resilient unit. They can withstand tons more ranged firepower than equivalent points of Black Knights or Chaos Knights, are faster, cause fear, have solid magic resistance and still hit like a ton of bricks. I really love them, and currently run one unit of six in 2.25K, and would probably run two and a second Greater Daemon in 3K. Some people who take the Fateweaver/LoC approach to building power Daemons run two units of 5 Hounds in 2K.

You do realize this isn't for tournament play, it's for local players who I have no respect for and I can probably wipe them with the cairn wraiths anyway...?

Stelek wrote:You do realize this isn't for tournament play, it's for local players who I have no respect for and I can probably wipe them with the cairn wraiths anyway...?

Then why post the list asking if it was "Good Bad or Ugly?"

I'd like to think I do my best to just avoid getting into the internet pissing contest with you, but honestly if your goal is to write an army list that can beat people who will consistently lose to a list with maxed out Carin Wraiths, then I don't think you have much reason to post anything for comment.

Personally I think VC in general just need a few heavy hitters (Vargulf, Black Knights, Nike Vamp w/ Dogs) and then just a bunch of solid blocks and the magic to support that. The items necessary I think are pretty much with what Therion posted but I don't think all of them are absolutely necessary at once (Staff, the Regen banner kind of dictates you build your list around it but it is stupid good).

As for Demons, I've been tempted to sell one of my armies and start them for WHFB, and the build that I came up with (with a lot of input from mauleed and other guys in the area) is pretty damn similar to what Therion is running. Mainly because it just screws over Vamps who are otherwise looking to be completely dominant over most of the other armies.

The -2 to cast (assuming the FAQ comes out per responses to direwolf, etc, etc) on IoN literally kills the army. With decent magic defense you can stop the VC players only answer to a Blood Thirster - Raising/Dancing Zombies into him. Once the BT gets to run wild and IoN isn't saving your losses I think it's an easy win for the DoC player.

Well I don't need a tournament calibre army. If there are obvious flaws, sure I'd like to hear about them.

Hearing how demons beat everyone down isn't really a flaw, is it? It's the latest codex creep...and so what?

Is there a flaw for friendly play, like in the first version of the list--then feel free to point it out.

For tournament play I'd run the fell bat list myself, but I don't do fantasy tournaments...

Demons don't beat everything that's for sure.

Personally I think if that Demon list came up against Empire or Dwarfs (or if DoW cannons are allowed) it's going to have a very hard time.

Why empire?

d6 wound cannons.

For use against...what, exactly?

The skirmishing undead with 2 wounds??

I don't get why I'd care...1 cannon=1 dead wraith on a 2+ and a 2+.

Splain it to me.

Stelek wrote:For use against...what, exactly?

The skirmishing undead with 2 wounds??

I don't get why I'd care...1 cannon=1 dead wraith on a 2+ and a 2+.

Splain it to me.

Because we're talking about DEMONS having problems vs. Dwarfs & Empire. Not your Vamp list. Heck unless it was a Dwarf Cannon with runes, the wraiths are unaffected by the Cannons. They could care less about Empire Cannons.

Stelek wrote:Well I don't need a tournament calibre army. If there are obvious flaws, sure I'd like to hear about them.

Hearing how demons beat everyone down isn't really a flaw, is it? It's the latest codex creep...and so what?

Is there a flaw for friendly play, like in the first version of the list--then feel free to point it out.

For tournament play I'd run the fell bat list myself, but I don't do fantasy tournaments...

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Demons don't beat everything that's for sure.

Personally I think if that Demon list came up against Empire or Dwarfs (or if DoW cannons are allowed) it's going to have a very hard time.

Stelek wrote:Why empire?

Etherdude wrote:d6 wound cannons.

Up until this point we've been talking about that kind of Demon list, or specifically the Demon list that would be an absolute beatdown vs. this kind of VC (where you expect to raise your army and have Ethereal carry you the rest of the way) isn't a "Beat everything" kind of list, because against Empire or Dwarfs they can easily deal with the major threats of the list (the Greater Demon).

There are ways to beat down Empire with Daemons but it requires some LOS blocking terrain in the middle areas. The way to go of course is to move the Daemon army to the middle and just stay there nuking the cannon crews with magic. The Bloodthirster is kept 'in defence' for the Steam Tanks and out of line of sight untill it gets safer out there. The Arch Lector's War Altar will get destroyed by Flamers and then he's not unbreakable anymore and the Flamers can kill him in close combat. It's far from an easy fight for the DoC player however as the Empire can get a great amount of magic defence (10 dice at best and scrolls). The same Empire list can deal with most VC quite well, although the Wraiths are a useful unit in this setup, especially if the VC player has a solid magic defence (scrolls). Still, most tournament Empire players needn't worry much about Wraiths because of the fact that nearly every Daemon player will run two units of Flamers.

I do consider the Daemon list an all-around army, as it isn't automatically beat by any army and is hideously strong against some others. When named characters are allowed the Fateweaver is pretty damn powerful too, mostly because he isn't afraid of cannons at all. That 3+ ward save and a re-roll each player's turn is unbelievable. When I run him, I also play the Skulltaker in a unit of Horrors so that I have something to send against the regenerating blocks.

Therion wrote:There are ways to beat down Empire with Daemons but it requires some LOS blocking terrain in the middle areas. The way to go of course is to move the Daemon army to the middle and just stay there nuking the cannon crews with magic. The Bloodthirster is kept 'in defence' for the Steam Tanks and out of line of sight untill it gets safer out there. The Arch Lector's War Altar will get destroyed by Flamers and then he's not unbreakable anymore and the Flamers can kill him in close combat. It's far from an easy fight for the DoC player however as the Empire can get a great amount of magic defence (10 dice at best and scrolls). The same Empire list can deal with most VC quite well, although the Wraiths are a useful unit in this setup, especially if the VC player has a solid magic defence (scrolls). Still, most tournament Empire players needn't worry much about Wraiths because of the fact that nearly every Daemon player will run two units of Flamers.

I do consider the Daemon list an all-around army, as it isn't automatically beat by any army and is hideously strong against some others. When named characters are allowed the Fateweaver is pretty damn powerful too, mostly because he isn't afraid of cannons at all. That 3+ ward save and a re-roll each player's turn is unbelievable. When I run him, I also play the Skulltaker in a unit of Horrors so that I have something to send against the regenerating blocks.

Certainly there isn't much of an "auto-loss" for the Demons Build, but I think with multiple Cannons they can certainly threaten the Demons. If your Horrors are using a Disc to fly, then they can't join the Horror Blocks, and to get LOS to the Cannons, if they don't kill the crews then they're going to start eating Cannonballs. Likewise, the Horror Blocks at only 10 in size will put out Missiles, but they can be dealt with or absorbed.

Also I think on Page 30 of the DoC book it states that Heralds can only join units of the same alignment, it's hard to spot as it looks like a Fluff box, but the rules are there so no Skulltaker leading a unit of Horrors.

Oh I see. Talking about demons and empire. lol

First off my heralds use wings to fly not discs, and secondly the skulltaker is not a herald.