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Knights of the Imperial Cheese Ball 3500 empire for Ardboys Semi Finals critiques please.  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Dakka Veteran






The name came from my friend Jen whom I beat in round 1 of the qualifiers. She complained I sold out and played Knights of the Imperial Cheeseball instead of my normal high elf army.

This is the list that got me 3rd Place in the qualifiers. Got two solid victories one against high elves second against chaos and got massacred by Vampire Counts. Was working on some reports but never finished them cause of MBA classes and then vacation.

Was wondering what to do to Improve it.

I was thinking I might follow Papa Smurf's advice and drop the outriders for pistollers as they would be really good for baiting blood knights if I have to play vampire counts. I figured outriders were better with BS4 and the hochland at BS5. They servered fairly well in qualifiers except against high elves where archers made positioning them difficult with their 30 range bows. Pistollers would obviously be better for baiting and mobility and they have the same range practically pistolers move 16 and shoot 8 when outriders shoot 24.

Knights of the Imperial Cheeseball 3500 Pts - Empire Army

1 Karl Franz, The Ruling Emperor @ 700 Pts
General; Full Plate Armor
#The Silver Seal [0]
#Ghal Maraz, Hammer of Sigmar [30]

1 Imperial Dragon @ [320] Pts

1 Arch Lector Altena (Arch Lector of Sigmar) @ 305 Pts
Prayers of Sigmar
Van Horstman's Speculum [30]
Armour of Meteoric Iron [25]
Hammer of Judgement [25]

1 War Altar @ [0] Pts

2 Warhorse @ [0] Pts

1 Battle Wizard Isabella (Battle Wizard) @ 160 Pts
Magic Level 2; Warhorse
Rod of Power [30]
Ring of Volans [20]

1 Warhorse @ [0] Pts

1 Battle Wizard Celes (Battle Wizard) @ 160 Pts
Magic Level 2; Warhorse
Dispel Scroll [25]
Dispel Scroll [25]

1 Warhorse @ [0] Pts

1 Battle Wizard Camille (Battle Wizard) @ 145 Pts
Magic Level 2; Warhorse
Staff of Sorcery [35]

1 Warhorse @ [0] Pts

1 Battle Wizard Katrina (Battle Wizard) @ 115 Pts
Magic Level 1
Dispel Scroll [25]
Dispel Scroll [25]

10 Handgunners @ 80 Pts
Empire Handgun

10 Handgunners @ 85 Pts
Empire Handgun; Musician

5 Knightly Orders @ 123 Pts
Barding; Lance; Full Plate Armor; Shield; Musician; Warhorse

5 Warhorse @ [0] Pts

5 Knightly Orders @ 123 Pts
Barding; Lance; Full Plate Armor; Shield; Musician; Warhorse

5 Warhorse @ [0] Pts

5 Knightly Orders @ 123 Pts
Barding; Lance; Full Plate Armor; Shield; Musician; Warhorse

5 Warhorse @ [0] Pts

5 Knightly Orders @ 123 Pts
Barding; Lance; Full Plate Armor; Shield; Musician; Warhorse

5 Warhorse @ [0] Pts

5 Knightly Orders @ 123 Pts
Barding; Lance; Full Plate Armor; Shield; Musician; Warhorse

5 Warhorse @ [0] Pts

1 Great Cannon @ 100 Pts

3 Crew @ [0] Pts

1 Great Cannon @ 100 Pts

3 Crew @ [0] Pts

1 Great Cannon @ 100 Pts

3 Crew @ [0] Pts

1 Great Cannon @ 100 Pts

3 Crew @ [0] Pts

4 Outriders @ 134 Pts
Repeater Handgun; Light Armour; Musician; Warhorse

1 Outrider Champion @ [21] Pts
Hochland Long Rifle

5 Warhorse @ [0] Pts

1 Steam Tank @ 300 Pts
Main Cannon (Tank); Steam Gun (Tank)

1 Steam Tank @ 300 Pts
Main Cannon (Tank); Steam Gun (Tank)

Casting Pool: 9

Dispel Pool: 8

Models in Army: 76


Total Army Cost: 3499

I been playing a dragon and calvary high elf force for 6th edition so this list reflects that.

Explanation of Unit Selections.
Karl Franz on a Dragon is just mean. He kills characters well and destroys units with a little help.

Arch Lector Altena - decent at killing characters with the speculum I might go with Mace of Might instead, although if they fail their leadership auto wound, not so good against high leadership characters though. Provides prayers for healing the dragon if necessary.

Battle Wizard Isabella - Rod of Power for storing extra dice I don't use to have better magic defense or offense if needed and Ring of Volans for a bound spell

Battle Wizard Celes - 2 dispel scrolls for magic defense

Battle Wizard camille - Staff of Sorcery for +1 to dispel against VC and raise dead spam

Battle Wizard Katrina 2 dispel scrolls for magic defense

Have 4 mages for a decent magic phase and solid defense against VCs and Demons.

Mounted mages go with the Knight units and I split them off when I charge the Knight units in. Usually take magic missles and attack spells with them if possble.
Last mage goes with handgunners for defense and usually just takes fireball

Knights - in groups of 5 for MSU to attack and support Karl, Arc Lector and Steam Tanks. I feel that artillery will be shooting at karl, altena or the steam tanks so I keep them to small units.

Handgunners - guard seige weapons.

4 Cannons - I love cannons I am really good with cannon sniping

Outriders with Hochland rifle - mobile firepower to snipe champions and characters.

2 Steam Tanks - against some armies steam tanks are terrible and get shot by seige weapons, against others though they are terrors. pretty good against vcs who have no shooting.


This performed admirably in the qualifiers.
Against High Elves mixed force of Tyrion and Teclis and a fairly balanced list. I had Too many varied hard targets and Teclis miscast early so I was able to kill him off.

Against Chaos I had answers to his blood thirsters, yay cannon sniping and was generally more mobile and just hit him hard with an all out charge.

Against Vampire Counts I just messed up and shot the heavy hitting stuff and he just grew some of it back Should have dumped every shot into the main unit with the vamp lord guarding the token and hit it with everything I had. Got massacred because I lost my token to the blood knights should have left an stank back to counter charge instead of just some hand gunners not because of unit losses.
I did miss the rocket battery which I cut against Vampire Counts although the 4th mage for defense was probably better.


Lets take a look at the new scenarios listed here
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1620002_semifinals_scenarios.pdf

1. Reinforcements
Not sure what two units to remove. Might have to retool and make some cunchy units? Thinking losing two units of knights certainly hurts my flankers and charge asisters.

2. Haunted
Drive up a steam tank or karl on dragon to take the haunted spot sounds like a good plan.

3. Second Time is a Charm
Question: How many rerolls do you get with this Lucky Charm? Do you get to reroll every attack roll, damage roll, failed save and failed leadership roll that the general makes? Its description is vague.
Its a tough decision whether to give the Lucky Charm to Karl or my Arch Lector Altena. I'm thinking Karl Franz if its every roll. That makes the d3 wounds really nasty.

Seriously debating taking high elves as I feel sort of bad for switching from my long time High Elves, my first round opponent wasn't to happy about it since we both play high elves and she liked my high elf army. I started Empire in 7th Edition for Karl Franz on a dragon and making myself a custom female Arch Lector. But I feel Empire tends to be more effective over all because of Cannon being a really good solution to big stuff and just harder stuff like steam tanks. If they allowed Dogs of War Cannons I would be playing High Elves most likely.
   
Made in ca
Man O' War




Canada

I like the list Avariel, I really would drop the outriders for Pistoliers but that is just personal bias. Only thing I question is other than the stanks you really don't have an anvil or hammer unit, sure the popemobile and Karl can hit hard but unsupported all it takes is one bad round of rolling (fickle dice gods) and your going to book it.

Had you thought about the silver horn to help with all the bait and flee rallies? Not sure where you'd squeeze it in but might be nice.

Having that hammer unit - say a unit of 6 or 7 inner circle knights with the war banner would make you alot more hitty - you could drop a cannon to upgrade one unit of knights, you do have 5 other cannons so the overall loss of firepower would be minimal and the offensive punch would be significant.

Just thoughts, good luck

PapaSmurf

Life moves pretty fast,
If you don't stop and look around once and a while,
you might miss it - Ferris Bueller 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



Painesville, Ohio, USA

Krueger hated Altdorf. The city was cramped, crowded, crunched, and had an overly-inflated sense of self-worth. It was an ugly city. The city generated more noise and commotion than anything of substance. The oppressive humidity of early summer didn’t help the metropolis any. Even after all the improvements and the seemingly endless gold the Elector-Count Emperor Franz had made to the city, it would never clean itself up. In some ways, the old engineer understood why Marienburg had declared its independence. Altdorf was just a city. Marienburg was a cosmopolitan capitol. A shining jewel of human creativity, intelligence, skill, and power. Still… when the most powerful human in the world called you, one answered his summons. And, if nothing else, at least The Emperor spared no expense at entertaining his guests… which made the old man that much more nervous. Nobility didn’t tend to spend money on common folk, unless they wanted something more valuable in return.

Krueger clicked open his pocket watch, and looked at it again. He shook his head, and put it back into the deep, coat pockets. The Emperor would arrive when he would arrive. No sooner, no later. For the countless time, the old man checked himself. His coat was a fine jacket of cotton and wool died in a deep, Tilean purple. His hat was black silk, and it matched his highly polished shoes. He had replaced his normal, leather satchel, for a more respectable looking one that he had bought from an elf merchant a long time ago. At least he looked the part. He hated dealing with nobles.

At last, the Emperor strode into the courtyard, and greeted the old man as he would a friend, clasping his hand firmly. “Ah, Master Krueger, I see you have arrived. Please, I know you are a busy man, sit and discuss with me what you think of the divisions I will take with me on this summer’s campaign.”

“If your Majesty will forgive an old man, sitting tends to irritate my knees. I will stand, my Lord.” Not waiting for an approval, Krueger rushed to begin his review, and get out of courtyard.

“First, I would like to comment on your command. Your arms, armaments, and mount will serve you well. And, I have seen the effectiveness of Leonardo’s inventions work on the battle field. Two of them, coupled with your Imperial Dragon, will be quite the force to reckon with, especially when teamed with an Imperial Altar of War. However, I have something that you may wish to consider, that I will get to in just a moment.

“I am curious as to why you aren’t brining along a Captain of the Guard… one to carry a banner, to embolden your soldiers. You have a powerful cadre of defensive wizards, but it’s been my experience that the Battle Standard Bearer can be an invaluable asset in making sure you win charges. Especially with an army heavy with knights as yours currently is.”

The old, Tilean-trained, engineer paused here to take a deep breath, and gauge Emperor Franz. Nobles didn’t care much for being corrected. Seeing no emotion from the Elector Count, Krueger continued, “Ah… keeping on track, my Lord, as I was saying you have a mix of mages that will give you solid protection against enemy sorcerers, and even a couple of mystic trinkets to make your combat magic more effective… however, I do wonder why so many prodigal sorcerers? And, if they are all to be mounted on horseback, I have to consider why they don’t put thick, padding on the horses as well. I would suggest instead, you could save a few of your silvers by getting more apprentices… especially since it appears that your wizards normally perform the role of defensive magic. Lady von Hauptmann has given me some of what they teach wizards athe Colleges of Magic, and she has let me know that the first thing new apprentices are taught are the spells of counter-magic. With the silver you save, you could, perhaps, hire a few First Knights to champion your knightly units, or perhaps even the Kislev Gryphon Legion.”

Krueger pulled his hat off. Altdorf was always sweltering this time of year, and the black silk just broiled his bald head. Scratching his head, like he always did when nervous, the engineer continued. “And, I also would like to suggest that for your Arch Lector, perhaps you could donate for a troop of Inner Circle knights to command. Perhaps five lances strong with full command… that’ll give her a bit more of meat for her charge, and her fiery oratories will make your inner circle knights as solid as dwarves in combat. Though, I did notice she is riding a chariot. As I alluded to before, I would like to offer a different suggestion. She might be better served with a suit of heavy armor and a shield… and perhaps a more mundane magic item… such as a hammer empowered with a touch of strength. The silver you save from that should let you donate for a troop of inner circle knights.”

Picking up a glass of Estalian brandy, offered by a page, Krueger continued his comments while sipping, “On the note of your knights, Emperor Franz, I would like to suggest you increase the size of their troops by one knight. I understand the size of five is lucky in the Empire, and it leads to a highly-mobile detachment. However, I’ve found that six knights make for a highly resilient unit, with good strength of arms and good maneuverability. I will offer a suggestion for paying for such warriors momentarily, my Lord.

“Sir, I’d like to quickly cover your bit of infantry you have. I understand that your small, handgunner, squads are just to screen your artillery, and have been designed accordingly. However, as I know your Lordship knows, humans can be a bit… nervous around some of the horrors that populate this world. If I may suggest, instead of human handgunners, why not hire a squadron or two of freelance, dwarven, crossbowmen. Armed with crossbows, armored with heavy armor and shields, a dozen dwarven crossbowmen would serve you well. Brave, good shots, and solid in the ruckus of melee. In fact, you could have them perform double duty by hiring a thane and bannerman with them. Then, not only can they pepper enemy units with quarrels, but they could reform to face enemy charges that survive.”

Krueger paused for a moment to collect his thoughts, and then proceeded to dig out an oversized sheet of parchment. Presenting it too Emperor Franz, the old engineer continued, “Or, as this advertisement states, you could hire Lumpin Croops freelance Halflings. I have worked with the Halfling, and he is quite the commander… as brave as a dwarf, and skilled in the arts of skirmishing.”

The old engineer looked around for a moment, and seeing a small table asked, “If you would come to this table, my Lord?” Krueger pulled from his seemingly bottomless pockets books worth of oversized parchment. He spread them out to cover the entire table, weighing them down with rocks to keep the breeze from taking them away. “If you could take a quick moment to look at these schematics, my Lord, for artillery combinations. I fully know that four great cannons is an impressive artillery train. However, you discussed with me the chance you will be dealing with corps and army sized opponents. If you would turn your attention to this chart, it illustrates how mortars are useful against large formations and therefore against enemy generals that command such large armies. A brace of mortars would serve you well. You could bring two cannon and two mortars and still be we set to deal with enemy monsters, enemy troops of knights, and companies of infantry. In fact, against some opponents, your mortars won’t be able to miss. Especially coupled with the fact you already have a brace of steam tanks, which provide you with two maneuverable, lighter, cannon. With the silver you save by bringing a pair of mortars, you could easily pay for the increase in size to the troops of knights you already have. Or… if you would prefer to save Imperial citizenry, Master Gunner Bronzino, from Tilea, has devised a most impressive Horse Cannon, that would greatly complement your highly mobile army.”

Still not seeing any emotion from the human noble’s face, Krueger downed the last of his brandy to steel his courage. The lack of emotion meant bad things for the engineer of nearly sixty summers. He adjusted the glasses on his face, and rushed to complete his assessment, “Your Lord, I only have one last suggestion. Your army is more mobile than static… and while the Outriders are highly trained, and carry devastating weaponry, they are oddly static. Perhaps a troop of young Pistoliers would serve you better. Five strong would allow them to race up enemy flanks, slowing them down with distractionary noise and fire. You could even upsize them to six with the addition of a single Outrider with Repeater Pistol.”

Nervously smiling, Krueger scratched his bald head and finished, “My Lord, those are the suggestions I have. If you have no questions of me, I will find my way back to my apartments in the city.”


   
Made in ca
Man O' War




Canada

Kraggs, I love you man!
(in that totally platonic brotherly sort of way)

PapaSmurf

Life moves pretty fast,
If you don't stop and look around once and a while,
you might miss it - Ferris Bueller 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Thank you for the advice.

I'm actually thinking I will drop the Outriders for Pistolers. Pistolers would have come in really handy to bait the Blood Knights against Vampire Counts. The lose in balistic skill is worth it for a unit that can bait and fire.

List worked fine with the Steam tanks as the anvils and doing combined charges with knights and war alter or knights and tank or Karl on dragon. I do have issues with large blocks of Undead though. Rocket Battery would be nice here with the huge template but it isn't all that reliable.

Issue about Silverhorn is how to fit it in without losing the magic defense which you need against Vampire Counts and Demons. A change I made before the qualifiers was to drop a Rocket battery to get in yet another mage for more scrolls. The 4 scrolls really helped out.


I actually haven't fielded Inner Circle Knights in awhile. at 2250 standard is 2 Cannons and 5 Outriders 5 Pistolers. Have to think about that. I don't usually count steam tank cannons. You really don't want to fire them and take the risk of damaging the tank in the case of a misfire unless you really need something dead. I rarely fire Steam tank cannons.


Kraggs that was pretty awesome. I probably should finish some of my tourney reports then you might like reading them.

Captain with a banner is good for the combat res along with the Inner Circle Knights. I field a BSB in high elves with dragon princes to great success. The thing is which mage to drop. Definately want the rod of power and at least 2 dispel scrolls. The Staff of Sorcery is very good against casting spam like vampire counts and 4 scrolls is nice. thinking might drop the last mage with dispel scrolls.

I have the mages mounted for fluff reasons that its a mobile army and I have modeled a wagon to carry hand gunners and horses to draw the cannon when I have it on the display board. Also I primarily try to take magic missles with the mages so having them mobile and able to cast to soften up targets before I charge them is nice.

Unfortunately Dogs of Ware are not legal. :(

Will have to consider Mortars because I did really miss that Rocket battery despite it not being all that reliable it can be really nasty.

I typically prefer cannons because I can eyeball the distance very accurately and subtract the average bounces and hit whatever I want more often then not but with a mortar it is alot more random. It definatelyw ould help against ranked troops though.

Definately going with pistoliers though.

Will post an update when I get home and have army builder to use.

   
 
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