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WARNING: If you don't want to hearing whining about the new CSM codex then I reccomend skipping this thread.
















I like chaos. I like it a lot. And I have a lot of it. Yet I dislike the splitting of chaos and the new CSM codex. It makes me want to play chaos a lot less, but I still like the background and the armies themselves. I just can't stand what GW is doing to the chaos rules right now. So what am I to do? Sell my stuff and wait for better books? Keep it and hope it gets better? Jump ship for another game?

My head says this new direction really sucks! But inn my heart I still wuv my chaos warriors, even if they are ineffective and overpriced. And I miss the old CSM armory. That list was a lot of fun.

You is okay bro, if you like your army too much then there will be goo stain all over em...

maybe you can trade armies with someone.

What is it about CSM that you love?

Is it the models? If so, can you proxy the figs for other rules in your gaming group?

Is it the way the rules worked for the army, the army lists etc.? If so, How enthusiastic is your gaming group about 5th edition? Would they be open to continue playing 4th and letting you use the old codex?

Would it feel as good if you used the figures in a different game that better reflected your idea of how chaos plays (5150, No Limits, Ambush Alley, Starship Troopers, etc.)?

Does your play style with CSM vary that differently from the new codex, or can you recreate your play style despite the more 'generic' rules?

Do you want to play a top-tier tournament army? My sense was that this codex was creating a very competitive list, just different from the Andy Chambers edition. Have you tried playing using the new rules? Would you be okay playing a list that makes you happy even if it isn't 'top tier' tournament wise?

If you're 'forced' to playing 5th edition with your group, and your heart is set on sticking to 40k, then consider your options carefully. DON"T get rid of your whole army--you'll regret it in 4 years when 6th ed. comes out and the pendulum swings back the other way (assuming, of course, that Hasbro or Topps hasn't bought the company by then and turned it into a CMG. But I digress). But consider keeping a small force of your favorite units/types (say, 1000-1500 points) and either reconfiguring the rest of the army, or trading the remaining figures for another army that feels more 'right' to you in this moment, that you may not love as much, but will allow you play the game for the next little bit with your head held high.

I concur about the new CSM Codex, but I'll boil myself in oil before I'll give my Black Legion up just because they gave the fluff the shaft. Sure, I've got two other armies to field if I dropped Chaos, but the Ruinous Powers have got their claws in my hide pretty deep, and even though my army was built around the 3.5 Codex, it's still mostly viable with the new one. I'll keep the faith in the hopes of better things to come. It's sine qua non with me and Chaos now.

syr8766 wrote:What is it about CSM that you love?

It's the "We're so evil" attitude and look, plus the customizability (in 3.5). And I love the background of the traitor legions and I'm quite annoyed that GW more or less abandoned them.

Is it the models? If so, can you proxy the figs for other rules in your gaming group?

I'm quite fond of the models, plus most of mine are painted and based, a big plus. I suppose I could try playing loyalists marines, but mine are mutated quite a bit. I love that mutation sprue!

Is it the way the rules worked for the army, the army lists etc.? If so, How enthusiastic is your gaming group about 5th edition? Would they be open to continue playing 4th and letting you use the old codex?

Most people at my LGS are very enthusiastic about 5th. Even the veteran player of 12 years is sick of 4th, and until recently 40k could do no wrong in his eyes.

Would it feel as good if you used the figures in a different game that better reflected your idea of how chaos plays (5150, No Limits, Ambush Alley, Starship Troopers, etc.)?

That might work.

Does your play style with CSM vary that differently from the new codex, or can you recreate your play style despite the more 'generic' rules?

If anything, the new codex boost my playstyle, I miss the background and armory.

Do you want to play a top-tier tournament army? My sense was that this codex was creating a very competitive list, just different from the Andy Chambers edition. Have you tried playing using the new rules? Would you be okay playing a list that makes you happy even if it isn't 'top tier' tournament wise?

An effective army is good, but interesting armies are better. And, I find tournaments too stressful to enjoy. Too many people and too much competitiveness.

there is some hope that GW is going codex-crazy on the CSM side - rumors of individual codexes or rules for things like death guard or alpha legion. The idea being:

Codex: Chaos Space Marines comes out, defines rules for the arines

Codex: Daemons comes out, defining rules for specific daemons

Codex: fill in your favorite traitor legions come out, referencing stats/rules from the two previous codexes.

Maybe this is just wishful thinking - a few people I know who normally seem to be up on things seem to think this will happen, with Death Guard first. Something about a concurrent release of plastic plague marines and plastic plaguebearers or something. I dont know.

Anyway, I think you're worrying too much about the rules and fluff in one book. Sure, it's the current codex your army is built from - but all the stories and fluff about the traitor legions is far from dead or meaningless just because it isn't in the current codex.

All 40k armies are being simplified rules-wise...less options, smaller armories that are really just per-unit options. I also really enjoyed all the options and such, but I can understand why they're streamlining it.

Noisy_Marine wrote:I like chaos. I like it a lot. And I have a lot of it. Yet I dislike the splitting of chaos and the new CSM codex.

I still like the background and the armies themselves.

I just can't stand what GW is doing to the chaos rules right now. So what am I to do?

My head says this new direction really sucks! But inn my heart I still wuv my chaos warriors, even if they are ineffective and overpriced. And I miss the old CSM armory. That list was a lot of fun.

I guess you might be thankful you don't play WFB, because Chaos is split into Mortals / Daemons / Beasts in that system. Personally, I'm quite happy with the new CSM, and am very close to collecting all of the bitz to build my CSM army.

If really do you like the background and armies, then you should stay. Those are the best reasons to like an army.

If you were playing because of the many rules advantages that Chaos had, then you really should sell and get out. 3.5 was an aberration that GW isn't likely to go back to, no matter how much you beg, plead, or whine.

If you're rationalizing, GW has a clear goal of doing to 40k what they did in Fantasy, making armies very distinctive by severely limiting certain choices, eliminating options that allow armies to overlap, and forcing differences just to make armies different.


Personally, I suggest you put your CSM on the shelf for the next 2 or 3 years, and play a T3 horde army with crappy saves: Guard, DE or little Nids. Then you can go back to your CSM with new perspective.

*Snort*

I play chaos in fantasy.

And yes I am considering eldar or guard for something different. I think a detachment of traitors would go great with my chaos marines.

Oops. Additional condolences.

In lieu of a lengthy post blathering on about how much I like my CSM army and while it sucks to lose diversity, legion lists and proper demon rules I still do like the new CSM book and have in fact been doing better with it than with the last one ........

I like Chaos Space Marines, and my own army in specific, more than I like 40k at this point. Which means I continue to play and enjoy playing the game, but it has much more to do with painted models and personal fluff than what was 'gifted' upon us my the latest C:CSM.

- Salvage

I really liked the old chaos book (although I've never played chaos) for the options it provided, so I feel the pain of people that lost cool stuff.

That said, there is some cool stuff in that new book. If you like playing chaos marines, but you can't find rules you like in it (or any of the SM books, for that matter), then you might just be a little too picky.

Also, I think you're misreading someting if you think CSM is a weak codex. It's not OTT broken like the old one (which it was), but it's a great performer with some amazing units. As for the armory, your aspiring champion is still a big tough guy, even without mutation right? The new book is more interesting then some people think, it's just that the interest is inherent in what units you select, not what options you select for that unit. GW wants you to combine plague marines and 1k sons, or a lash prince with berzekers.

Finally, if you like the background from the 3.5 book, then use it. I really don't see why you'd throw away the background with a new book. If you want to be a legion, then you're still a legion. I play Praetorian IG, and I don't call my guys Cadians in odd uniforms, I still use old fluff. Anyways, I don't want to play doctor, but if you're running out of gas for your army, it might not entirely be about the book. There could be other things that affect your zeal for the hobby and/or Chaos. Just a though.

I too am a CSM player and have been for upwards fo 10 years. I really like the army because of the high mod potential and the rich fluff that's behind it. I also like(d) it because of the options that were made available. As far as the CSM codex, here is my general feeling.

As a stand alone codex, the CSM codex is a reasonable. It gives some good options and has enough stuff in it to allow armies to not be clones of one another. It's on par with most of the other armies, except for Guard and SM. Guard and SM still have tons of options, allowing much more flavor to be given to their variations than any other army currently.

As the codex that replaced the previous CSM codex, it is horriable. The lack of unique demons and legion rules makes the codex a shadow of the previous one. The codex is bland and doesn't have any personality like the previous one.

To me, the CSM codex will be fine IF:

1) SM get even more vanillified. I'd personally like to see DA, BA, SW and all other variants put in the same codex, ala CSM. This won't happen, but for the most part, all SM shouldn't differ much army to army other than the color scheme and a unique unit. Ravenguard is black SM with a special unit of jump infantry, etc.

2) Guard needs the same treatment as above.

3) Remove all allies and this should be done upon 5th edition release.

4) Guard and SM need 2-4 completely useless units that no one will field other than liking the models or needing to fill points (Dread, Possessed, lesser and greater demons).

Basically, if your going to make CSM boring, everyone needs to be boring and bland.

Polonius wrote:GW wants you to buy plague marines and 1k sons and a lash prince and berzekers.

Fixed your typos.

Techboss wrote:
4) Guard and SM need 2-4 completely useless units that no one will field other than liking the models or needing to fill points (Dread, Possessed, lesser and greater demons).

Basically, if your going to make CSM boring, everyone needs to be boring and bland.

Because guard don't have completely useless units

On topic: I played Chaos for a short time (the previous codex) and I LOVED that codex. I can see why you Chaos players are upset; so many awesome things in there! Mutations, alternate lists for the legions...good stuff. I handed my CSM force down to my little brother and he bought the new codex when it came out. We have both found that the army list is solid but is hugely streamlined which, unfortunately, is how most of the army lists will be heading I feel ('cept SM...damn them!).

Because guard don't have completely useless units

Quoted for truth.

The basic guardsman at 6 points being one of them.

Don't forget ogryns, and over-priced transports.

Shall we go on?

Guard players have had their last two codexi come as a consistent nerf. As of now, they're pretty much down to one build, drop guard, and even that is fickle.

As for Chaos:
The "fluff" is still there. It's just not codified in rules anymore. It's in your imagination.

Polonius wrote:Finally, if you like the background from the 3.5 book, then use it. I really don't see why you'd throw away the background with a new book. If you want to be a legion, then you're still a legion.

I play Praetorian IG, and I don't call my guys Cadians in odd uniforms, I still use old fluff.

Up until the current CSM book, you were forced to be a Legion, Red Corsairs, or Fallen. That was the sum total of your options. DIY simply wasn't an option.

IG, like SM and most of the other GW armies allows for limitless DIY creativity. CSM did not.

Techboss wrote:1) SM get even more vanillified. I'd personally like to see DA, BA, SW and all other variants put in the same codex, ala CSM. This won't happen, but for the most part, all SM shouldn't differ much army to army other than the color scheme and a unique unit.

2) Guard needs the same treatment as above.

3) Remove all allies and this should be done upon 5th edition release.

4) Guard and SM need 2-4 completely useless units that no one will field other than liking the models or needing to fill points (Dread, Possessed, lesser and greater demons).

Basically, if your going to make CSM boring, everyone needs to be boring and bland.

Oh, please, whine, whine. SM sell more, so they get more. Simple as that.

1. SM will be more generic. Traits are going away, and it looks like their units and options are still going to be narrower and more restricted than what Chaos can do. "Combat Squads" mean anything to you? Also, it's very clear that DA, BA, and SW are pretty much going to be generic SM, but with a minor tweak and a different paint job. I look at it like this: Chaos, I get the standard list and major options in 1 book. Loyalists, I need to buy an extra book for every paint scheme. Besides, eventually, Chaos will get their extra flavors as separate books: angry spikey, sexy spikey, slimy spikey, and sneaky spikey.

2. IG are definitely losing Doctrines.

3. The only Allies remaining are Inquisition. And that book is going to be doozy to write. But you can rest assured that Allies will go away as well.

4. Guard have plenty enough useless units: Storms and Ogryns are simply terrible. And their bread-and-butter Chimera Transport is insanely overpriced. Marines fare better, but then, they're the poster children for 40k, and their profits are the reason that 40k exists as a GW game at all. As for your units, Dreads are fine, if they're fitted with dual CCWs. Generic Daemons are well worth their points. The only problem unit is Possessed, because you can't model them to capture the randomness.

The idea that CSM are boring and bland is nonsense. All of the old Fluff is still valid, *and* CSM finally officially open up for DIY armies, like the SM.

Quite frankly, I think the new CSM Codex is simply awesome. The things you can do with the current CSM book are just great, now that the artificial restrictions have been lifted. I am looking forward to seeing more and more Codices following the CSM model, because structurally, it is amazing.

It's a *great* time to be a CSM player.

Valhallan42nd wrote:As for Chaos:
The "fluff" is still there. It's just not codified in rules anymore. It's in your imagination.

QFT

There's a line of bull...The previous CSM codex did indeed have a DIY army creation ability in the main list.